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Could most modern translations be in error?

Uber Genius

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One might argue that the disciples misunderstood Jesus and misreported him in the gospels. Also Paul would have to be added to that list and don't forget John and his unfortunate writings in Revelation about God's wrath and judgment.

Then you would be able to explain the Early Church Fathers' writings and the continual misunderstandings qua universalism would be explicable. But what would you use as your source material to demonstrate the authors of the NT got it wrong?
 
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ClementofA

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Getting some background on early Church Father's writings doesn't support the thesis that Theology of hell as everlasting is a corruption of later teaching or corrupted texts.

It's not the - opinions - of "Theology" that are the subject of the OP, but translation. As for early church fathers, that's already been addressed here:


https://www.christianforums.com/thr...niversalism-since-early-church-times.8042013/
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unfund...017/04/indeed-many-universalism-early-church/
 
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redleghunter

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English is not the only language in the world. The Greek Church doesn't use a translation.
That may be a good point. But we do have Hebrew and Greek scholars who graduate Seminary (as you do) who look to the scholarship and not drive by 'theology' blog sites. For example, we do have a member here at CF who has on many occasion put together an excellent exegesis of the very use of the words in contention.

This is the work of @Der Alter

In the following twenty three verses αἰών and αἰώνιος are defined/described, by association with other adjectives and adjectival phrases, as eternal, everlasting etc.:
1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33, Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 16:26.
…..In the NT “aion/aionios” are used to refer to things which are not eternal but are never defined/described, by other adjectives and phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.
[1]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[2]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios,” therefore Paul evidently considers “aidios” and “aionios” to be synonymous.
[3]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[5]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
In this verse Paul is actually taling about our bodies. “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Does the UR crowd think God is going to replace our destroyed earthly house with an ages long house which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[7]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
[8]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[9]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;[φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
[10]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[11]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Here “aionios” and “aion” are paired with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
[12]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”
[13]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here means “eternal.”
[14]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
[15]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
[16]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
[17]John 10:28
(28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
In this verse “aionion” and “aiona” are paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand” If “aionion” and “aiona” are only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” and “aiona” by definition here mean eternal.
[18]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
[19]John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal or everlasting life.
[20]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[23]John 8:51
(51) Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé unto the aion] see death."
According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying they will die, i.e. see death, unto the age. By definition aion means eternity.
 
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ClementofA

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For example, we do have a member here at CF who has on many occasion put together an excellent exegesis of the very use of the words in contention.

This is the work of @Der Alter

That has been addressed by several posters & many times, e.g.:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...os-based-on-aion.8040292/page-2#post-72110302

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...torture-in-fire.8041369/page-25#post-72149978

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...k-a-universalism.8070242/page-8#post-72862899

OTOH here we see many examples where αἰών and αἰώνιος are defined/described as being of a finite duration:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/

12 points re forever and ever being a deceptive translation & being finite:
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-a-universalism.8070242/page-14#post-72882151
 
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redleghunter

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That has been addressed by several posters & many times, e.g.:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...os-based-on-aion.8040292/page-2#post-72110302

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...torture-in-fire.8041369/page-25#post-72149978

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...k-a-universalism.8070242/page-8#post-72862899

OTOH here we see many examples where αἰών and αἰώνιος are defined/described as being of a finite duration:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/

12 points re forever and ever being a deceptive translation & being finite:
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-a-universalism.8070242/page-14#post-72882151
In an attempt to refute his exegesis you refer to dozens of different sources, out of context looking for one grape on a stripped vine. But you have to. Eisegesis is difficult to defend against exegesis. You started with a presupposition in everyone of your OPs and then attempted to stuff the bag full of irrelevant sources or cherry picked.
 
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ClementofA

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In an attempt to refute his exegesis you refer to dozens of different sources, out of context looking for one grape on a stripped vine. But you have to. Eisegesis is difficult to defend against exegesis. You started with a presupposition in everyone of your OPs and then attempted to stuff the bag full of irrelevant sources or cherry picked.

If you think you can refute my refutation of Der Alter's post, give it a try. Your above comment fails in that regard.
 
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Uber Genius

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It's not the - opinions - of "Theology" that are the subject of the OP, but translation. As for early church fathers, that's already been addressed here:


https://www.christianforums.com/thr...niversalism-since-early-church-times.8042013/
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unfund...017/04/indeed-many-universalism-early-church/
You misunderstand how damning this knockdown argument is to your conspiracy claim.

The authors who were closest to the original text and the disciples and the early church thought that Jesus taught eternal torment view of hell. That makes your conspiracy theory moot.
 
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ClementofA

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Can is the operative word. Context of the text or passage is crucial. One size does not fit all.

So what legitimate basis do pro endless hell biased folks have to deceptively translate Scripture according to their own theologically driven biases?

It's not only the CV scholars that agree the original language words of the Scriptures often rendered "eternal" & "forever" can refer to a finite age, but early church fathers & scholars of the past 2000 years.
 
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redleghunter

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If you think you can refute my refutation of Der Alter's lame post, give it a try. Your above comment fails in that regard.
Your challenge is the majority of English translations we have are inaccurate. Translations conducted by committees of over 50 Koine Greek scholars (for each translation). Yet you want us to believe a few hyper-dispensationalists in the 19th century who denied the Deity of Jesus Christ and held to a similar view as Jehovah's Witnesses on soul sleep are more accurate because they confirm your personal beliefs on annihilation of the soul.
 
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redleghunter

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It's not only the CV scholars that agree the original language words of the Scriptures often rendered
All three of them?

but early church fathers & scholars of the past 2000 years.
Which ones were those again? Please cite the homily name or commentary of the church father.
 
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Uber Genius

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That has been addressed by several posters & many times, e.g.:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...os-based-on-aion.8040292/page-2#post-72110302

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...torture-in-fire.8041369/page-25#post-72149978

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...k-a-universalism.8070242/page-8#post-72862899

OTOH here we see many examples where αἰών and αἰώνιος are defined/described as being of a finite duration:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/

12 points re forever and ever being a deceptive translation & being finite:
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-a-universalism.8070242/page-14#post-72882151
This last point suggests dictation ...a method no one supports. Further because a word has a lexical range that is occasionally not eternal THE CONTEXT, NOT THE WORD SETS THE INTERPRETATION.

You continue to argue the word study fallacy.

Al languages have a lexical range where the context of the sentence and juxtaposition to other words and paragraphs are studies. There are scholars that argue for a universal salvation view but not based on reading in a possible word meaning giving a minority definition that is out of context and renders the rest of the passages and surrounding passages meaningless.
 
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redleghunter

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So what legitimate basis do pro endless hell biased folks have to deceptively translate Scripture according to their own theologically driven biases?
So the vast majority of Christian scholarship, creeds and commentaries for the past 2000 years just got it wrong. Along come some 19th century hyper dispensationalists who personally translate the Bible and say "hey we got it right and all those committees got it wrong!"
It's not only the CV scholars that agree the original language words of the Scriptures often rendered "eternal" & "forever" can refer to a finite age, but early church fathers & scholars of the past 2000 years.
scholars? Very debatable. Never heard of the sources from modern and post-modern sources you use. And your sources which refer to church fathers for your view never cite the original works. Note, Patheos is not a source!
 
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ClementofA

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You misunderstand how damning this knockdown argument is to your conspiracy claim.

How is that? I mentioned no "conspiracy". That's your term to try to throw mud on the OP. Were all the false doctrines accepted by a majority of Christendom in the early church, the dark ages & the middle ages a "conspiracy" of men? Or the work (a conspiracy) of demons collaborating together under Satan? Or based on ignorance? Did a lack of sound thinking play a part? Or was it a combination of these factors?

Wouldn't Satan love to throw mud on the character of the true God by making many of those who profess His name (Jesus Christ) to portay Him as a monster who pointlessly tortures most of his created human race for all eternity? And He is helpless, impotent, to do anything about it, or He doesn't want to do anything about it, since His love quickly expired like a carton of milk?

The authors who were closest to the original text and the disciples and the early church thought that Jesus taught eternal torment view of hell.

You're wrong, see:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...niversalism-since-early-church-times.8042013/
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unfund...017/04/indeed-many-universalism-early-church/
 
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redleghunter

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Wouldn't Satan love to throw mud on the character of the true God by making many of those who profess His name (Jesus Christ) to portay Him as a monster who pointlessly tortures most of his created human race for all eternity?
There it is...You are trying to present what you think is the Mind of God. Using human sentimentalities and applying them to Almighty God.

And He is helpless, impotent, to do anything about it, or He doesn't want to do anything about it, since His love quickly expired like a carton of milk?
A false premise to begin with. Again using human sentimentalities and trying to apply them to Almighty God the uncreated Creator. A bit more reading in the Old Testament should clear the air on this a bit.
 
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redleghunter

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It's not the - opinions - of "Theology" that are the subject of the OP, but translation. As for early church fathers, that's already been addressed here:


https://www.christianforums.com/thr...niversalism-since-early-church-times.8042013/
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unfund...017/04/indeed-many-universalism-early-church/
This was the only church father quoted in your patheos link:

It is quite in vain, then, that some–indeed very many–yield to merely human feelings and deplore the notion of the eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery. They do not believe that such things will be. Not that they would go counter to divine Scripture—but, yielding to their own human feelings, they soften what seems harsh and give a milder emphasis to statements they believe are meant more to terrify than to express literal truth.
— Augustine,
Enchiridion, sec. 112.

Great advice by Augustine!
 
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ClementofA

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This last point suggests dictation ...a method no one supports. Further because a word has a lexical range that is occasionally not eternal THE CONTEXT, NOT THE WORD SETS THE INTERPRETATION.

The topic is translation, not interpretation. See the OP.

You continue to argue the word study fallacy.

Irrelevant.

Al languages have a lexical range where the context of the sentence and juxtaposition to other words and paragraphs are studies. There are scholars that argue for a universal salvation view but not based on reading in a possible word meaning giving a minority definition that is out of context and renders the rest of the passages and surrounding passages meaningless.

See above.
 
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ClementofA

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So the vast majority of Christian scholarship, creeds and commentaries for the past 2000 years just got it wrong.

If majority opinion equals truth, should eternal tormentists change their view to annihilationism or universalism if either of the latter 2 views become the majority Christian view in the near future? If universalism were ever a majority view in the early church, would you have believed it because it was the majority view? If praying to Mary was ever the majority view, would you believe in that?

Re Universalism being believed at times by many, if not a majority, in the early church & hopeful universalism possibly being a majority Christian view today, see:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...niversalism-since-early-church-times.8042013/
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unfund...017/04/indeed-many-universalism-early-church/

Along come some 19th century hyper dispensationalists who personally translate the Bible and say "hey we got it right and all those committees got it wrong!"

There have been universalists in the church since before the apostle Paul.

And your sources which refer to church fathers for your view never cite the original works.

Wrong. You haven't read much, have you. See, for example Ramelli's tome.
 
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ClementofA

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There it is...You are trying to present what you think is the Mind of God. Using human sentimentalities and applying them to Almighty God.

That's more of your mud slinging. While ignoring the context of why my statement was made, namely regarding your comment re conspiracy:

You misunderstand how damning this knockdown argument is to your conspiracy claim.

How is that? I mentioned no "conspiracy". That's your term to try to throw mud on the OP. Were all the false doctrines accepted by a majority of Christendom in the early church, the dark ages & the middle ages a "conspiracy" of men? Or the work (a conspiracy) of demons collaborating together under Satan? Or based on ignorance? Did a lack of sound thinking play a part? Or was it a combination of these factors?

Wouldn't Satan love to throw mud on the character of the true God by making many of those who profess His name (Jesus Christ) to portay Him as a monster who pointlessly tortures most of his created human race for all eternity? And He is helpless, impotent, to do anything about it, or He doesn't want to do anything about it, since His love quickly expired like a carton of milk?


A bit more reading in the Old Testament should clear the air on this a bit.

The OT God is the same as the NT God, Who is the Savior of the world, not an eternal torturing monster.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
 
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