Could Mary have stopped God?

[IamAdopted]

I dont really know what to say to this, it seems extremely unorthodox to make God directly responsible in this way for this particular event. The Holy Spirit guiding the hands that hammered the nails in..... On the contrary it seems to me these men acted sinfully under their own free will.

It was Gods will and His Plan for Christ to die for our sins.. He had it all planned out and He carried it through.. Using even those whom rejected and Hated Him..

 

[Uphill Battle]

I dont really know what to say to this, it seems extremely unorthodox to make God directly responsible in this way for this particular event. The Holy Spirit guiding the hands that hammered the nails in..... On the contrary it seems to me these men acted sinfully under their own free will.

You're thinking is that God wasn't in charge of the whole deal?

 

[NewToLife]

that is not express will. I'm having a hard time explaining this. God wills that we love him, and obey him, but does not force the issue. God's ACTIVE will, where he says THIS WILL HAPPEN is different, and supercedes any "free will" we might have.

On what basis do you hold this belief? For instance the 10 commandments are not couched in terms of 'if you dont mind' neither was the command issued in the Garden.

 

[NewToLife]

You're thinking is that God wasn't in charge of the whole deal?

My thinking is that God is not the author of sin. God knew what would happen, He even allowed it to happen, turning it to good but as I keep trying to make clear that does not equate to responsibility for the act itself, that lies with Man.

 

[Uphill Battle]

On what basis do you hold this belief? For instance the 10 commandments are not couched in terms of 'if you dont mind' neither was the command issued in the Garden.

on the basis that we see God "violating" the free will of man numerous times, yet at other times, allowing man to do whatever he chooses.

 

[IamAdopted]

On what basis do you hold this belief? For instance the 10 commandments are not couched in terms of 'if you dont mind' neither was the command issued in the Garden.

God is soveriegn. He controls all that ever was is or will to be.. He is all mighty God.. He wills things to happen and they happen.. He is God.. Now we as little minoot people think we have all this power and free will thinking that God could not save us if we didn't want Him to. But if God has planned that we be saved we will be saved.. There is no matter of our will verses His will.. For if it is in Gods plan who are we to stop Him? Do we really have this power you speak of? Does God will that we sin? Of course not.. Do we sin.. Well yup we sure do.. Why because when Adam ate sin entered into the world and we have been having this sin problem ever since.. God says if you do this will happen.. But when it comes down to whos power is greater which is it that you suppose will happen? When God says something is going to happen you better believe that this is what exactly is going to happen..

 

[NewToLife]

God is soveriegn. He controls all that ever was is or will to be.. He is all mighty God.. He wills things to happen and they happen.. He is God.. Now we as little minoot people think we have all this power and free will thinking that God could not save us if we didn't want Him to. But if God has planned that we be saved we will be saved.. There is no matter of our will verses His will.. For if it is in Gods plan who are we to stop Him? Do we really have this power you speak of? Does God will that we sin? Of course not.. Do we sin.. Well yup we sure do.. Why because when Adam ate sin entered into the world and we have been having this sin problem ever since.. God says if you do this will happen.. But when it comes down to whos power is greater which is it that you suppose will happen? When God says something is going to happen you better believe that this is what exactly is going to happen..

I am thankful that my Church, which embraces mystery probably to a greater degree than most western Churches does not expect me to hold such contradictory and muddled beliefs. Is God omnipotent, absolutely, thankfully holding such a belief does not actually require a slide into irrationality.

 

[NewToLife]

on the basis that we see God "violating" the free will of man numerous times, yet at other times, allowing man to do whatever he chooses.

Well i guess we will have to agree to disagree. From my perspective this is simply more evidence of the dangers of indulging in personal interpretation.

 

[Uphill Battle]

I am thankful that my Church, which embraces mystery probably to a greater degree than most western Churches does not expect me to hold such contradictory and muddled beliefs. Is God omnipotent, absolutely, thankfully holding such a belief does not actually require a slide into irrationality.

ah yes... anyone who doesn't go to your church is irrational.

gotcha.

 

[IamAdopted]

I am thankful that my Church, which embraces mystery probably to a greater degree than most western Churches does not expect me to hold such contradictory and muddled beliefs. Is God omnipotent, absolutely, thankfully holding such a belief does not actually require a slide into irrationality.

I am glad that I go to a church that does not hold God to a human standard.. Making God liable to man and not man to God.. Jesus said that no one took His life that He layed it down.. I would much rather put God on the pedestal and man where he belongs beneath God.. For if Mary would have said no It would have made no difference To Gods plan.. Christ still would have came. But you see God had already prepared mary's heart to say yes. He is good at this.. Being our creator and all.. So all in all It is all God.. Man are just vessels and a part of the body of Christ.. Christ is the head.. He is the leader. He is the Top and on Top of Him being the Top God sits on the throne Right next to Christ.. For Christ sits on the righthand side of the Father..

 

[NewToLife]

ah yes... anyone who doesn't go to your church is irrational.

gotcha.

Actually someone expressing irrational views is irrational, whatever Church they may attend.

 

[IamAdopted]

Actually someone expressing irrational views is irrational, whatever Church they may attend.

How is this irrational? Was Jesus this way when He spoke? Even Peter could not understand why Christ had to die. Jesus had to rebuke Peter..

 

[NewToLife]

How is this irrational? Was Jesus this way when He spoke? Even Peter could not understand why Christ had to die. Jesus had to rebuke Peter..

Your views are irrational because they lack any internal consistency, for instance you assign responsibility in an arbitrary and inconsistent fashion. You describe a thing one way and then insist it is really another.

 

[IamAdopted]

Your views are irrational because they lack any internal consistency, for instance you assign responsibility in an arbitrary and inconsistent fashion. You describe a thing one way and then insist it is really another.

That yes we sin? because of the sin nature. And that when God has something planned nothing will stop this from coming to pass? We can sin.. This is personal and goes on our account.. But when a plan from God has been presented such as the birth of Christ this is going to happen no matter who tries to stop it.. How is this irrational?

 

[Angeldove97]

This question is a situation where it just would never occur, so there's no answer really to this kind of question. Mary was born for this purpose, to be the Mother of God. There was no chance of her saying no. It was her choice but the Lord knew very well what her answer was going to be even before He sought her out.

 

[I <3 Abraham]

Wow, it has been so long since I have posted in the theology section that I almost forgot why I dont post here.

Thanks for the reminder.

P.S- the catholic lady on page 1 is making a lot of sense.

 

[IamAdopted]

This question is a situation where it just would never occur, so there's no answer really to this kind of question. Mary was born for this purpose, to be the Mother of God. There was no chance of her saying no. It was her choice but the Lord knew very well what her answer was going to be even before He sought her out.

So this was why Mary was born? Just to be the mother of Jesus? Well I can't say yes or no to this.. But I can say that God had already prepared her heart to say yes.. So you believe in predestination then? That what God predestines will happen? yahoo..

 

[Axion]

Does the fact that I now know the answer to a question posed in the past deny the free will of the one who answered? For instance, my wife said yes to me when I proposed to her, does it therefore follow that she was not free to have said no? God of course knew the answer to the question before it was even formed in my mind.

Knowledge of an outcome and free will are not incompatible in the way that seems to be pre-supposed in the question. If man has free will then Mary has to have been able to say either yes or no to God, the fact that God knew that the answer would be yes does not actually alter that fact. If it did we would be no more than puppets and God would be responsible for all our actions.

For instance, if Mary is not responsible for the consequences of her yes then logically Adam and Eve are not responsible for the consequences of their actions either, in which case of course we implicitly make God is the originator of sin. Alternatively, if you choose to see a no from Mary as the ability to thwart God then logically you must also conclude that Adam and Eve thwarted God at the time of the fall.

The OP is essentially saying that he is not comfortable with man being responsible for the actions he takes freely. I cannot agree with such a position, God always knew we would fall and he always knew he would send His son to redeem us by the incarnation but humanity had a choice in it's fall and by God's grace a choice in it's salvation. It is fitting that Man should be required to make a choice in the process of salvation just as he made a choice at the fall, that choice is our second chance. Mary was the first to make the choice that we are all called to make, indeed her choice is a prototype of the choice we are called to make. She is the first Christian, our first and perhaps most important example of what it is to say yes to Christ, she is symbolic of the Church, just as her flesh became His body so now is the Church called to be His body.

To honour Mary ( and the glorified saints or even relics or icons for that matter ) is to recognise that God works through humanity to achieve Man's salvation, He does not make a mere legal declaration that we are not guilty, rather, through His grace He effects real spiritual and physical changes in the nature of Man and ultimately all creation.

That just about says it.

The original question reeks of calvinism, in that God supposedly makes all our choices for us, and we have no real freedom of action that opposes what God has preordained for us. The problem with that line od thought is it boils down to God being responsible for our sin.

 

[Uphill Battle]

That just about says it.

The original question reeks of calvinism, in that God supposedly makes all our choices for us, and we have no real freedom of action that opposes what God has preordained for us. The problem with that line od thought is it boils down to God being responsible for our sin.

You ignore the actual point of the OP then.

 

[sunlover1]

Does the fact that I now know the answer to a question posed in the past deny the free will of the one who answered? For instance, my wife said yes to me when I proposed to her, does it therefore follow that she was not free to have said no? God of course knew the answer to the question before it was even formed in my mind.

Knowledge of an outcome and free will are not incompatible in the way that seems to be pre-supposed in the question. If man has free will then Mary has to have been able to say either yes or no to God, the fact that God knew that the answer would be yes does not actually alter that fact. If it did we would be no more than puppets and God would be responsible for all our actions.

For instance, if Mary is not responsible for the consequences of her yes then logically Adam and Eve are not responsible for the consequences of their actions either, in which case of course we implicitly make God is the originator of sin. Alternatively, if you choose to see a no from Mary as the ability to thwart God then logically you must also conclude that Adam and Eve thwarted God at the time of the fall.

The OP is essentially saying that he is not comfortable with man being responsible for the actions he takes freely. I cannot agree with such a position, God always knew we would fall and he always knew he would send His son to redeem us by the incarnation but humanity had a choice in it's fall and by God's grace a choice in it's salvation. It is fitting that Man should be required to make a choice in the process of salvation just as he made a choice at the fall, that choice is our second chance. Mary was the first to make the choice that we are all called to make, indeed her choice is a prototype of the choice we are called to make. She is the first Christian, our first and perhaps most important example of what it is to say yes to Christ, she is symbolic of the Church, just as her flesh became His body so now is the Church called to be His body.

To honour Mary ( and the glorified saints or even relics or icons for that matter ) is to recognise that God works through humanity to achieve Man's salvation, He does not make a mere legal declaration that we are not guilty, rather, through His grace He effects real spiritual and physical changes in the nature of Man and ultimately all creation.

Interesting views.
Makes me think.