Could Mary have stopped God?

[Uphill Battle]

Does the fact that I now know the answer to a question posed in the past deny the free will of the one who answered? For instance, my wife said yes to me when I proposed to her, does it therefore follow that she was not free to have said no? God of course knew the answer to the question before it was even formed in my mind.

Knowledge of an outcome and free will are not incompatible in the way that seems to be pre-supposed in the question. If man has free will then Mary has to have been able to say either yes or no to God, the fact that God knew that the answer would be yes does not actually alter that fact. If it did we would be no more than puppets and God would be responsible for all our actions.

For instance, if Mary is not responsible for the consequences of her yes then logically Adam and Eve are not responsible for the consequences of their actions either, in which case of course we implicitly make God is the originator of sin. Alternatively, if you choose to see a no from Mary as the ability to thwart God then logically you must also conclude that Adam and Eve thwarted God at the time of the fall.

The OP is essentially saying that he is not comfortable with man being responsible for the actions he takes freely. I cannot agree with such a position, God always knew we would fall and he always knew he would send His son to redeem us by the incarnation but humanity had a choice in it's fall and by God's grace a choice in it's salvation. It is fitting that Man should be required to make a choice in the process of salvation just as he made a choice at the fall, that choice is our second chance. Mary was the first to make the choice that we are all called to make, indeed her choice is a prototype of the choice we are called to make. She is the first Christian, our first and perhaps most important example of what it is to say yes to Christ, she is symbolic of the Church, just as her flesh became His body so now is the Church called to be His body.

To honour Mary ( and the glorified saints or even relics or icons for that matter ) is to recognise that God works through humanity to achieve Man's salvation, He does not make a mere legal declaration that we are not guilty, rather, through His grace He effects real spiritual and physical changes in the nature of Man and ultimately all creation.

no, my OP is extremely uncomfortable with the notion that Mary could have prevented the Incarnation. The way it is bandied about, it was Mary's "yes" that caused it to happen, instead of Gods express will for it to be so.

 

[NewToLife]

no, my OP is extremely uncomfortable with the notion that Mary could have prevented the Incarnation. The way it is bandied about, it was Mary's "yes" that caused it to happen, instead of Gods express will for it to be so.

Mainly the OP asks a question heavily loaded with your protestant preconceptions and value judgements.

Aside of that I dont think anyone says that Mary's 'yes' caused the incarnation, that doesnt negate the fact that the incarnation clearly hung on her answer though.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Mainly the OP asks a question heavily loaded with your protestant preconceptions and value judgements.

Aside of that I dont think anyone says that Mary's 'yes' caused the incarnation, that doesnt negate the fact that the incarnation clearly hung on her answer though.

hung on her answer? how?

you think that Mary could have said "no" and God's plan for salvation would be shattered?

 

[NewToLife]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axion
Did Adam and Eve stop God?

Nope.

Then you contend that God intended for man to fall into sin then?

 

[Uphill Battle]

Then you contend that God intended for man to fall into sin then?

no. I contend that God didn't move to stop them.

 

[NewToLife]

hung on her answer? how?

you think that Mary could have said "no" and God's plan for salvation would be shattered?

I think you havent thought through the implications of free will and whether or not God's foreknowledge is in fact incompatible with it. If you had you might have an inkling that your question is logically meaningless, on the same scale as the old atheist classic about whether God can make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it.

The question isnt whether Mary could stop God at all, it's whether God could or would act contrary to His own character.

 

[NewToLife]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewToLife
Then you contend that God intended for man to fall into sin then?

no. I contend that God didn't move to stop them.

Your position is logically inconsistent then.

 

[Uphill Battle]

I think you havent thought through the implications of free will and whether or not God's foreknowledge is in fact incompatible with it. If you had you might have an inkling that your question is logically meaningless, on the same scale as the old atheist classic about whether God can make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it.

The question isnt whether Mary could stop God at all, it's whether God could or would act contrary to His own character.

this all presupposes, of course, that God asked Mary PERMISSION for the event to happen.

 

[NewToLife]

this all presupposes, of course, that God asked Mary PERMISSION for the event to happen.

As I said you appear to have a problem with free will, you are arguing that God gives us no choices. Such a God seems quite monstrous damning atheists for the decisions He makes for them.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Your position is logically inconsistent then.

how so?

 

[Uphill Battle]

deleted!

 

[NewToLife]

how so?

When it suits your theological ideas God gives us free will but when it doesnt suit your ideas anymore he apparently doesn't. Clearly that is logically inconsistent.

 

[NewToLife]

rape? please. equating that is saying that with a YES, they were having consensual sex or something.

I dont see the word rape in my post and it was apparently gone so quickly you couldnt even quote it. Sure i used the word in haste but clearly I decided it was inappropriate almost instantaneously and without your help.

 

[Uphill Battle]

I dont see the word rape in my post and it was apparently gone so quickly you couldnt even quote it. Sure i used the word in haste but clearly I decided it was inappropriate almost instantaneously and without your help.

fair enough, I deleted the response.

 

[Uphill Battle]

When it suits your theological ideas God gives us free will but when it doesnt suit your ideas anymore he apparently doesn't. Clearly that is logically inconsistent.

disagree. I never stated that our free will is not subject to the one who provided it in the first place.

apparently you view the free will of what God has given us as the ability to counteract the express will of God.

 

[IamAdopted]

When it suits your theological ideas God gives us free will but when it doesnt suit your ideas anymore he apparently doesn't. Clearly that is logically inconsistent.

Look at the death of Christ.. God was using these men that put Christ to death for the sake of His glory. Can God not use His created to bring forth His plan? Known or unkown to us? We think we have all this power and free will. But we have to realize we are just the clay.. God is the Potter.. Can the clay say to the Potter you molded me wrong and be correct?

 

[NewToLife]

apparently you view the free will of what God has given us as the ability to counteract the express will of God.

Then you deny man sins? To sin is clearly to counteract the express will of God, it is possible precisely because we have free will......

 

[Uphill Battle]

Then you deny man sins? To sin is clearly to counteract the express will of God, it is possible precisely because we have free will......

that is not express will. I'm having a hard time explaining this. God wills that we love him, and obey him, but does not force the issue. God's ACTIVE will, where he says THIS WILL HAPPEN is different, and supercedes any "free will" we might have.

 

[IamAdopted]

Then you deny man sins? To sin is clearly to counteract the express will of God, it is possible precisely because we have free will......

Mens sin are on their own head for a man that sins shall surely die.. But when God has a plan and speaks of it.. It comes to pass.. Nothing in Heaven or on earth can stop the plan of God.. Nothing.. This has been proven over and over in the scriptures.. He is the one whom makes a way where there doesn't seem to be a way.. When the Lord opens a door no one can shut it. When the Lord shuts a door no one can open it..

 

[NewToLife]

Look at the death of Christ.. God was using these men that put Christ to death for the sake of His glory. Can God not use His created to bring forth His plan? Known or unkown to us? We think we have all this power and free will. But we have to realize we are just the clay.. God is the Potter.. Can the clay say to the Potter you molded me wrong and be correct?

I dont really know what to say to this, it seems extremely unorthodox to make God directly responsible in this way for this particular event. The Holy Spirit guiding the hands that hammered the nails in..... On the contrary it seems to me these men acted sinfully under their own free will.