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Could anyone ultimately reject God?

Who's view of rejecting God do you prefer?

  • CS Lewis's

    Votes: 5 38.5%
  • NT Wright's

    Votes: 2 15.4%
  • DB Hart's

    Votes: 4 30.8%
  • AN Other's

    Votes: 2 15.4%

  • Total voters
    13

Hmm

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I will address your questions which will generate more questions.

Thanks for your thoughtful post. Here are my questions...

God’s objective to do all He can to help willing individuals in fulfilling their objective.

Agreed, with the proviso that anyone who was not willing to find God in this life - which may be for very understandable reasons such as the death of a loved one which they can't make sense of, the misrepresentation of God by self-identified Christians which is a common experience - does not mean that God is not willing to help them see Him more clearly. A good teacher can help transform an unwilling school child by fostering a love for the subject.

...Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love.

Agreed.

Also, if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type Love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

Agreed, but by gradually revealing Himself to someone who may even have hated Him, God can turn someone around. This wouldn't be God forcing Himself on someone, more just allowing people to see Him less darkly and more clearly, where love will naturally follow.

This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

I'm not sure why we cant learn about this Love. Anyone who loves God has learnt to in one way or another.

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

Agreed.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them, burden them, to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

I agree, but I don't think it's a strict correlation. The extent to which you rise though loving God is not directly proportional to the depth to which you have sunk.

This “Love” Paul is talking about is only a Godly type Love, which today only Christians can have

Depends how you define Christians. As Jesus said, if you do an act of kindness to the least of people you do it to Him. This means that loving the hungry (in a real way by actually giving them food rather than sermons) is the same as loving Jesus which, to me, is the only meaningful definition of a Christian.

f am an atheistic humanist trying to sell people on the value of being a humanist, does some “good” deed, is that “good” for those observing this “good” as compared to, someone doing it because of Godly type Love and others come to realize that.

But is love for others different than love for God? Mother Theresa said that when she was feeding the starving she felt that she was feeding Jesus who that person was made in the image of, whether they were Christian or not.

some people believe, since you can do absolutely nothing to obtain God’s charity (it would be a work)

Whenever faith is seen as something that is has to measure up to a certain gold standard then it is also being viewed as a work.

If the prodigal son decided to be macho, hang in there, take the punishment he fully deserves and not further disturb his father with undeserved requests thus dying in the pigsty, what more could the father have done to help the son accept his charity as charity? Did the father fail in anyway, even if the son does not return?

No, but it is a parable with all the limitations that entails. God the Father has much more resources and time at His disposal than the prodigal's father had.

Yes, people would “say”: they accept God’s Love, if they “Knew” hell was their only alternative, but hell is like putting a gun to their head and saying accept my charity or else. Would that truly be accepting God’s Love as pure undeserved charity or because you have no other choice?

That isn't an issue for me because I don't believe a threatening hell like this exists.

God succeeds in providing the choice to all mature adults to become like God himself in that they truly have His Love.

And if they're not mature when they die, God will help them mature in the next life.

Why would Christians have a “fear” of the abyss, that is not where they are going?

Non-Christians as I have explained: do not have Godly type Love and cannot be motivated by Love, yet they can be motivated by fear.

To have a fear of hell, you have to have some believe in the Christian God and if you have just that little faith, that faith is enough to accept God’s help.

I would say the opposite because I think the fear of hell is a man-made, Dante like concept, not a biblical one. I also don't categorise Christians and non-Christians in the way you do because of the parable of the sheep and the goats and Jesus's emphasis on love for others rather than declaring assent towards a set of intellectual beliefs.

The soldier battling his hated enemy can surrender to his hated enemy and while still hating his enemy, be willing to humbly accept pure undeserved charity from his enemy. God will shower such hater of Him with unbelievable wonderful gifts, which will then cause the soldier to Love Him.

That's a good an explanation of universalism as I've ever heard!
 
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Hmm

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I think that the only reason that God would allow moral evil, aka sin, resulting from the abuse of our free wills, is so that, ultimately, we might come to hate and shun that evil in favor of good. But if His plan is simply to make everyone embrace the good (Himself) at the end of the day, why bother allowing evil to begin with? From our perspective this involves choice. We don’t know how all will choose but some seem much more attracted to evil, and opposed to God, than others.

It's a good question and, of course, I don't know. I would say though that I don't think He ever "makes" us embrace the good, it's more that He continues to give us opportunities to learn what the good is until we finally see it. The world then might be a "Vale of Soul Making", as Keats expressed it, and I would add that hell might be too.
 
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Strong in Him

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Doesn't a person have to have met, and know, God before they can truly reject him?
Otherwise, they might be rejecting their idea of God/the God they see in the church or their church going neighbours.
 
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Hmm

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Doesn't a person have to have met, and know, God before they can truly reject him?
Otherwise, they might be rejecting their idea of God/the God they see in the church or their church going neighbours.

I agree. The question is if you really met and know God, can you still reject him? DB Hart says no to this in the third poll option because we are made in the image of God and our true happiness lies in Him. He argues that ince we realise this, we could no more say no to God than an acorn could say no to becoming an oak tree. It's in our nature to want to be with God.
 
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Saint Steven

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Brennan Manning quote.

GetAttachmentThumbnail
 
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Saint Steven

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D.B Hart (to keep to the two initials and surname although he's usually referred to as David Bentley Hart) believes that to the extent that we reject God, we are not truly free. Our true happiness lies in being right with God and so, if we choose to reject God, we're not really making an informed choice any more than we would be if we ever vote for Trump again (or Biden, take your pick!). Here, God forgives us for we know not what we do and He'll work towards setting us free so that we can make a capable decision. This is, of course, the universalist view.
That's good.
The OP question is built on the idea that salvation is a choice we make. I don't think that is the case. A Bible-thumper would likely say that what I think is irrelevant, in the hopes of ending the discussion.

My claim is that salvation is a choice God made. We have no say in the matter.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
 
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A Bible-thumper would likely say that what I think is irrelevant, in the hopes of ending the discussion.

Yes, the old "Stop telling God want He can or can't do. If He wants to torture people He can and it would be good because He's God!" school playground refrain.

My claim is that salvation is a choice God made. We have no say in the matter.

Yes, we have no choice in the matter ultimately because God made us as his children and He doesn't want to lose any of us, so He won't. All the ingenious ways to get around this such as the free-will arguments seem to be no different than a little kid saying to his friend "I'm going to run away from home. That will teach my parent/guardian a lesson!". It's seeing the issue from the kid's point of view, not the parents/guardian.
 
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bling

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I agree, but I don't think it's a strict correlation. The extent to which you rise though loving God is not directly proportional to the depth to which you have sunk.


It can be like the father of the prodigal son, but in all cases Godly type Loves initially comes from accepting God’s Love. The young son did not return home because he “Loved” the father, a more “loving” act in the young son’s thinking, might have been to not bother the father further with an undeserved request.

When you correctly accept forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt you have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).


Depends how you define Christians. As Jesus said, if you do an act of kindness to the least of people you do it to Him. This means that loving the hungry (in a real way by actually giving them food rather than sermons) is the same as loving Jesus which, to me, is the only meaningful definition of a Christian.
A person anywhere in the world and in any environment can come to the conclusion they cannot personally lift this burden in their conscience, by all the methods they have tried. They can believe and turn to a benevolent Creator and seek His help which God will provide and they can realize. They will thus obtain a true Godly type Love for the Creator and also His creation.

This Godly type Love can motivate them to help others, but what if they are doing good stuff because they think they will get good stuff in this life and use that as a motivation?

“Christian” was a descriptive term and not a title.


Love grows with use, but initially it comes from “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…” Luke 7. Accepting God’s Love first.

I am not saying you cannot learn about this Love from CS Lewis book on Love, seeing others, having others Love on you, reading scripture and so on. The problem is truly accepting this Love as pure undeserved charity. People in general want to be “loved” for the way others perceive them to be and not in spite of the way they really are, which is very humbling, since anyone can be “Loved” in spite of the way they are.

True, once we initially humbly accept Godly type Love in the form of forgiveness it grows with use, or can slowly wither away from lack of use.

We also grow in the knowledge of how great our sins were and how much we have been forgiven of.


But is love for others different than love for God? Mother Theresa said that when she was feeding the starving she felt that she was feeding Jesus who that person was made in the image of, whether they were Christian or not.
Loving others out of our Love for God is Godly type Love, so the Mother Theresa type “love” of loving someone because they are in the image of God is a conditional type love and not an unconditional type Love (Loving someone in spite of who they are [or think them to be]). Godly type Love has nothing to do with the person you are Loving being in God’s image, but you Love, because it pleases God.


No, but it is a parable with all the limitations that entails. God the Father has much more resources and time at His disposal than the prodigal's father had.
Christ does the best job that could be done in recording His parables, not words could be added or removed to express the spiritual meaning better.

One thing, I think you are saying or seem to be saying is: “Time will help us make the right choice” and God with more time and “resources” can further help us in making the right choice, so eventually everyone will make the right choice, but is that true? (This is a heavy lengthy question).

1. Is a lack of “knowledge” the sinner’s problem, so given enough “knowledge” and time to think about it, everyone will humbly accept pure undeserving charity as pure charity? (Do you see that happening in our world?)

2. Does “knowledge”: puff a person up, make them even more self-reliant, feed their ego and pride, and turn them away from strengthening their trust/faith?

3. Do you see, as I have seem, people who have repeatedly refused God’s Love/charity growing a hard heart. The Bible repeatedly talks about our hearts becoming harden over time?

4. From my understanding: no one will go to hell (eventual annihilation) for lack of knowledge (that would make it God’s fault), but people go to hell for repeatedly refusing God’s charity to the point they would never accept God’s charity.

5. If the prodigal son, in the pigsty, had, for “his own good reason”, decided to stay and slowly starve to death in the pigsty, what more could have been done to such a hard heart, to further help the young son make the free will choice to turn to his father and it still being a free will choice on his part (a choice with other “likely” alternatives)?

6. Do you realize there are just somethings God cannot do? (This is the reason humans spend time on earth.)



Unfortunately, this messed up world is the very best place (really the only place) with: human death being a limitation, for willing individuals to fulfill their objective. The fact that man has only a limited lifespan is a help. Sin has perceived pleasure for a season at least, so the desire to sin is strong, but sin has purpose for the nonbelieving sinner (now needing forgiveness Luke 7), the problem is if time is not a limiting factor man will put off seeking forgiveness, and continue to pursue the pleasures of sin, hardening the person’s heart. Old people, facing death in the near future, do not automatically, change their ways and become Christians, they become set (hardened) in their ways.



I would say the opposite because I think the fear of hell is a man-made, Dante like concept, not a biblical one. I also don't categorise Christians and non-Christians in the way you do because of the parable of the sheep and the goats and Jesus's emphasis on love for others rather than declaring assent towards a set of intellectual beliefs.
Wow, another huge topic, so briefly:

I do not believe from what I know about God: “People who die without the opportunity to truly be able to accept or reject God’s Love go to hell.” I believe they would go to heaven, yet lacking Godly type love and only having a very wonderful, child for wonderful Parent type Love. Those of us who have Godly type Love, might have to be constantly with those without Godly type love, to protect and preserve them for eternity, since there is no way for them to obtain Godly type Love after leaving earth.
The “fear” of hell is not “bad” for the nonbelieving sinner, who comes to the realization the Christian God does exist and thus hell must exist. Hell exists to help some willing people make the choice sooner than later (and thus avoid a harder choice) to humbly accept God’s help/charity/forgiveness. The people who go to hell (eventual annihilation) are not going there to be helped or because of God’s vengeance, but to help choosers (the willing nonbeliever, which I was one). Think about this: If there was no hell, why not sit on the decision to accept God charity (become unselfish), and just continue to pursue the perceived pleasures of sin for a while longer, be selfish (where is no down side, except???).

The question is: do you want to be unselfishly Loved not because of who you are, but because the Lover is an unselfish being Loving everyone, and secondly become like this unselfish Lover and Love others unselfishly yourself?

Answering the question with an acceptance, does not depend on gaining greater knowledge although some knowledge is needed, but on what you personally want. Again, most people want to be “loved” for how they want people to perceive them to be.




That's a good an explanation of universalism as I've ever heard!
No, it is not. Soldiers want to hang in there, be good soldiers, hate their enemy to the point of never willing to accept pure undeserved charity from their enemy, if that was even possible. Most surrender in earthly armies because their leader orders them to surrender, but that is not the case with satan, since he will never order you to surrender, it has to be your choice.
 
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Der Alte

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None of the above.
When I first heard the Calvinist proof text about a leopard not being able to change his spots, nor the Ethiopian his skin, I needed to see the context. I found that God was speaking to the king and queen of Israel not, necessarily all of mankind, Jer 13:18. And as I read further in this chapter I found another passage, which refutes several tenets of Calvinism.
Does God predestine some part of humanity to salvation and another part to damnation and there is nothing either group can do about it? Many arguments have been presented in support of this.
Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s express will, clearly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist.
It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”
Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14
And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Note, verse 14, God said “I will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.”
 
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It can be like the father of the prodigal son, but in all cases Godly type Loves initially comes from accepting God’s Love. The young son did not return home because he “Loved” the father, a more “loving” act in the young son’s thinking, might have been to not bother the father further with an undeserved request.

I read it that he returned home because he realised that the hedonistic life he was initially excited by became empty and worse. I don't think I'd agree that it would have been more loving to his father to have stayed away because at some level he probably knew that his father could never be completely happy without him.

When you correctly accept forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt you have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).

Yes, the prodigal son's love for his father must have increased a lot once he knew that he was going to accept him back.

A person anywhere in the world and in any environment can come to the conclusion they cannot personally lift this burden in their conscience, by all the methods they have tried. They can believe and turn to a benevolent Creator and seek His help which God will provide and they can realize. They will thus obtain a true Godly type Love for the Creator and also His creation.

Yes, from people's testimonies, people can sometimes only find relief from huge guilt from knowing that they are forgiven by God, and this does make them more loving and forgiving, including to themselves.

This Godly type Love can motivate them to help others, but what if they are doing good stuff because they think they will get good stuff in this life and use that as a motivation?

“Christian” was a descriptive term and not a title.

I agree, that wouldn't really be love. An act of kindness is what we do when no-one is watching.

Loving others out of our Love for God is Godly type Love, so the Mother Theresa type “love” of loving someone because they are in the image of God is a conditional type love and not an unconditional type Love (Loving someone in spite of who they are [or think them to be]). Godly type Love has nothing to do with the person you are Loving being in God’s image, but you Love, because it pleases God.

I'm not clear on the distinction you are making. If you love all sentient beings for whatever reason, surely that is pleasing to God. A Buddhist for example will love even an insect because with their views on reincarnation they believe that in its former lives it would have been their mother, their best friend, their child etc. So they feel also unconditional loving kindness but for a very different reason than a Christian would have.

One thing, I think you are saying or seem to be saying is: “Time will help us make the right choice” and God with more time and “resources” can further help us in making the right choice, so eventually everyone will make the right choice, but is that true? (This is a heavy lengthy question).

Well, I believe that is true. That's the universalist view of course.

1. Is a lack of “knowledge” the sinner’s problem, so given enough “knowledge” and time to think about it, everyone will humbly accept pure undeserving charity as pure charity? (Do you see that happening in our world?)

I believe so but, no, I don't see that happening in our world, so the learning process has to continue into the next life.

2. Does “knowledge”: puff a person up, make them even more self-reliant, feed their ego and pride, and turn them away from strengthening their trust/faith?

False knowledge would have that effect, yes, but not true knowledge. An example of false knowledge would be that we are fully independent beings, and don't need other people or God for our happiness and well-being.

3. Do you see, as I have seem, people who have repeatedly refused God’s Love/charity growing a hard heart. The Bible repeatedly talks about our hearts becoming harden over time?

Yes I do. That's why it's a strawman argument to say that with universalism it doesn't matter what we do on Earth because we'll get to heaven anyway. Your hardened heart will have to be softened first and this could well be a long and painful process that's best avoided if possible.

4. From my understanding: no one will go to hell (eventual annihilation) for lack of knowledge (that would make it God’s fault), but people go to hell for repeatedly refusing God’s charity to the point they would never accept God’s charity.

This is the question in the OP. Is it possible, even in principle, that anyone could refuse God's charity forever?

5. If the prodigal son, in the pigsty, had, for “his own good reason”, decided to stay and slowly starve to death in the pigsty, what more could have been done to such a hard heart, to further help the young son make the free will choice to turn to his father and it still being a free will choice on his part (a choice with other “likely” alternatives)?

I don't see that the pig sty experience hardened the prodigal's heart, rather that it made him realise he had made a bad mistake.

6. Do you realize there are just somethings God cannot do? (This is the reason humans spend time on earth.)

Yes, I do realise that. God can't commit suicide for example. But I believe that God is entirely capable of breaking through to everyone, of softening every hardened heart. Would He have said that he will one day be "all in all" if He couldn't do this?

Think about this: If there was no hell, why not sit on the decision to accept God charity (become unselfish), and just continue to pursue the perceived pleasures of sin for a while longer, be selfish (where is no down side, except???).

Except that we will live a life devoid of God's love, which is surely a better reason to be a Christian than the simple avoidance of hell.

The question is: do you want to be unselfishly Loved not because of who you are, but because the Lover is an unselfish being Loving everyone, and secondly become like this unselfish Lover and Love others unselfishly yourself?

I'm not sure I see the distinction you're making. God loving everyone means God unconditionally loving everyone for who they are, otherwise He'd only love some, depending on who they are.

Answering the question with an acceptance, does not depend on gaining greater knowledge although some knowledge is needed, but on what you personally want. Again, most people want to be “loved” for how they want people to perceive them to be.

Is that true. Are we largely tired of being loved because of how we are perceived, by our boss, our Facebook friends etc., and long to be loved for ourselves. People do find that from God but can also get a reflection of that from true friends, children, dogs etc.
 
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Yes, the prodigal son's love for his father must have increased a lot once he knew that he was going to accept him back.
I have presented this parable to Muslims, atheists and people from none western cultures. They all agree that son deserved to be tortured (some thought killed) by the father and not treated like he was treaded, so it generates lots of questions and a great lesson about God, man and the reason we are here.

When to son said, he wanted his inheritance “now”, he was virtually saying, “Dad, I wish you were dead”.

Yes, the father would have been an example of Godly type Love before the son, but what the son did was a much more heinous than any sin done to his father (those closes to us can hurt us the most.) From what the son said the son was not returning out of a “Love” for the father, but selfishly wanting some kind of “life” he did not deserve to have, he was thus willing to accept undeserved charity from an unbelievable Loving Father (I use unbelievable, because God’s Love is unbelievable.)


I'm not clear on the distinction you are making. If you love all sentient beings for whatever reason, surely that is pleasing to God. A Buddhist for example will love even an insect because with their views on reincarnation they believe that in its former lives it would have been their mother, their best friend, their child etc. So they feel also unconditional loving kindness but for a very different reason than a Christian would have.
You are talking more about some Hindu sects and a few Buddhist sects, who believe in reincarnation.

Godly type Love has nothing to do with who/what is being Loved, you and even Mather Theresa talk about Loving someone or a bug, because the person is in the image of God and the bug is a person. God Loves and our Love is to be like God’s Love, so we Love because we are Lovers, which has nothing to do with who we are Loving.



Well, I believe that is true. That's the universalist view of course.
Have you not seen people’s hearts becoming more hardened with time?

I see perfect wisdom and logic behind what all is happening and the way it is happening including death and judgement, so If God could do it better, why does He not do it better?



This is the question in the OP. Is it possible, even in principle, that anyone could refuse God's charity forever?
The problem with your thinking is: “death” (ceasing to have the single choice of accepting or rejecting), has benefit for some, who still can make the choice. Is it not, humbling to know you are not going to have this choice forever?

It is not the “environment” a person is raised in that makes the choice, God provides the best situation for every individual, who will have the opportunity to make the choice (I have talked about those without the opportunity), so to keep being reincarnated is not going to make a difference.

Where and under what environment could a previous earthly human, go to better accept God’s charity as charity, and more importantly, why not go there first and avoid this messed up world?

More “Knowledge” does not produce Love (it is a gift of God, humbly accepted as pure undeserved charity) and more time does not increase one’s humility.



I don't see that the pig sty experience hardened the prodigal's heart, rather that it made him realise he had made a bad mistake.
What I have seen in life and in scripture: The same thing that hardens one person’s heart, can soften another person’s heart. The concept is: God (like the prodigal son’s father) is doing all He can to help willing individuals of the own free will to humbly accept His Love as pure undeserved charity, but it has to remain a real choice with likely alternatives. In the prodigal son’s case he could have decided, since he fully deserved to starve to death in a pigsty, he would accept that punishment.



Yes, I do realise that. God can't commit suicide for example. But I believe that God is entirely capable of breaking through to everyone, of softening every hardened heart. Would He have said that he will one day be "all in all" if He couldn't do this?
God cannot make (force) your choice for you and that choice, be your autonomous free will choice.



Except that we will live a life devoid of God's love, which is surely a better reason to be a Christian than the simple avoidance of hell.
Is a life devoid of God’s Love not a place hell or annihilation?

The nonbeliever earthly sinner can and does accept God’s “Love” for selfish reasons, so he is not devoid of Love, yet the transaction of Love is not completed, the Love is only one sided.

There is a lengthy explanation to being selfish, which starts with the fact we need and have a survival instinct, so we start out self-centered and go from there.

We are selfish beings (desiring to live forever, which is a good valuable desire), so we have to have a good “selfish” reason to humbly ourselves to the point of accepting God’s charity as charity and eternal life is part of the good reason. If we are already eternal beings than that good reason is taken away and we have to have other reasons, but “Love” cannot be part of our reason because we do not yet have Godly type Love.

Adam and Eve in the Garden would love God as wonderful obedient faultless child would love a wonderful generous Father, but they lacked the gift of Godly type Love, which is not instinctive. Adam and Eve had no reason to humble themselves to the point of accept pure undeserved charity as charity, since they had done nothing wrong, thus they deserved to be treated by their Creator justly/ fairly (lovingly) with no need of charity.

After Adam and Eve did sin, death came into play, limited resources, hardship, Deity not being daily physically with them, hurt and pain, and lots of ways to sin, but it also created a need for God’s charity (forgiveness), and a new heavenly home. They hid from God, so did they want God around and do selfish sinners want to be around God? How important is death and judgement in their decisions?

We do not want to be in a Garden situation, since Adam and Eve as our best all human representatives could not fulfill their earthly objective there, sin is needed and this messed up world is needed.
 
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Yes, I do realise that. God can't commit suicide for example.

Years ago on the BBC website religion boards there were non Christians who said that God did just that on the cross. I'm only throwing that in as an aside.

Far better to say that God cannot go against his nature - he is Truth and cannot lie, he is light and cannot be darkness etc.
 
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From what the son said the son was not returning out of a “Love” for the father, but selfishly wanting some kind of “life” he did not deserve to have, he was thus willing to accept undeserved charity from an unbelievable Loving Father (I use unbelievable, because God’s Love is unbelievable.)

I thin we are in agreement here.

Godly type Love has nothing to do with who/what is being Loved, you and even Mather Theresa talk about Loving someone or a bug, because the person is in the image of God and the bug is a person. God Loves and our Love is to be like God’s Love, so we Love because we are Lovers, which has nothing to do with who we are Loving.

I think I understand what you are saying, that God pours out so much love in us that it flows out to other's. Perhaps that's the ideal, I don't know, but for me, I know God loves me but I rarely feel it to this almost mystical extent. What does seem to work for me when I'm thinking badly about someone is reminding myself that God sees them in a different way, as His child who He loves and that helps me see them that way too. This, Mother Theresa's idea of seeing Jesus in the sick and hungry, so that when she's feeding someone, she's feeding Him, and the Buddhist idea that the spider you're about to stamp on used to be your uncle Bob in a previous existence (they believe in an infinite number of previous lives and so this would follow from that premise) and your idea of outpouring Love (if I've understood it correctly) are all quite different intellectual ideas but they all result in the same kind of feeling.

Have you not seen people’s hearts becoming more hardened with time?

I see perfect wisdom and logic behind what all is happening and the way it is happening including death and judgement, so If God could do it better, why does He not do it better?

Yes I have. I'm not sure what you say about God doing better because I believe He will eventually succeed in breaking down everyone's hardened heart. We don't agree on this of course.

The problem with your thinking is: “death” (ceasing to have the single choice of accepting or rejecting), has benefit for some, who still can make the choice. Is it not, humbling to know you are not going to have this choice forever?

I don't know how I'd feel if we only have this choice in this life because that's not something I believe. I could try to guess, but that would be pretty boring!

It is not the “environment” a person is raised in that makes the choice, God provides the best situation for every individual, who will have the opportunity to make the choice (I have talked about those without the opportunity), so to keep being reincarnated is not going to make a difference.

Universalism, of course, does not posit reincarnation. It just says that our relationship with God continues into the next life/age where God will help us arrive at a point where we can make this choice. And the question posed in the OP is who wouldn't make the choice for God once they are in this position?

I don't agree that we are all given the best opportunity possible to make this decision in this life though.

Where and under what environment could a previous earthly human, go to better accept God’s charity as charity, and more importantly, why not go there first and avoid this messed up world?

An example would be someone who never had good relationships in this life and hadn't learnt that we are all mutually dependent on others and dependent on God.

More “Knowledge” does not produce Love (it is a gift of God, humbly accepted as pure undeserved charity) and more time does not increase one’s humility.

By "knowledge" I don't just mean intellectual knowledge. I mean emotional and spiritual literacy as well.

What I have seen in life and in scripture: The same thing that hardens one person’s heart, can soften another person’s heart. The concept is: God (like the prodigal son’s father) is doing all He can to help willing individuals of the own free will to humbly accept His Love as pure undeserved charity, but it has to remain a real choice with likely alternatives.

I agree

In the prodigal son’s case he could have decided, since he fully deserved to starve to death in a pigsty, he would accept that punishment.

I think you're being a bit harsh on the prodigal son. He was a young man and made a bad choice.

God cannot make (force) your choice for you and that choice, be your autonomous free will choice.

Agreed.

Is a life devoid of God’s Love not a place hell or annihilation?

The nonbeliever earthly sinner can and does accept God’s “Love” for selfish reasons, so he is not devoid of Love, yet the transaction of Love is not completed, the Love is only one sided.

From what the son said the son was not returning out of a “Love” for the father, but selfishly wanting some kind of “life” he did not deserve to have, he was thus willing to accept undeserved charity from an unbelievable Loving Father (I use unbelievable, because God’s Love is unbelievable.)

I thin we are in agreement here.


Godly type Love has nothing to do with who/what is being Loved, you and even Mather Theresa talk about Loving someone or a bug, because the person is in the image of God and the bug is a person. God Loves and our Love is to be like God’s Love, so we Love because we are Lovers, which has nothing to do with who we are Loving.

I think I understand what you are saying, that God pours out so much love in us that it flows out to other's. Perhaps that's the ideal, I don't know, but for me, I know God loves me but I rarely feel it to this almost mystical extent. What does seem to work for me when I'm thinking badly about someone is reminding myself that God sees them in a different way, as His child who He loves and that helps me see them that way too. This, Mother Theresa's idea of seeing Jesus in the sick and hungry, so that when she's feeding someone, she's feeding Him, and the Buddhist idea that the spider you're about to stamp on used to be your uncle Bob in a previous existence (they believe in an infinite number of previous lives and so this would follow from that premise) and your idea of outpouring Love (if I've understood it correctly) are all quite different intellectual ideas but they all result in the same kind of feeling.

Have you not seen people’s hearts becoming more hardened with time?

I see perfect wisdom and logic behind what all is happening and the way it is happening including death and judgement, so If God could do it better, why does He not do it better?

Yes I have. I'm not sure what you say about God doing better because I believe He will eventually succeed in breaking down everyone's hardened heart. We don't agree on this of course.

The problem with your thinking is: “death” (ceasing to have the single choice of accepting or rejecting), has benefit for some, who still can make the choice. Is it not, humbling to know you are not going to have this choice forever?

I don't know how I'd feel if we only have this choice in this life because that's not something I believe. I could try to guess, but that would be pretty boring!

It is not the “environment” a person is raised in that makes the choice, God provides the best situation for every individual, who will have the opportunity to make the choice (I have talked about those without the opportunity), so to keep being reincarnated is not going to make a difference.

Universalism, of course, does not posit reincarnation. It just says that our relationship with God continues into the next life/age where God will help us arrive at a point where we can make this choice. And the question posed in the OP is who wouldn't make the choice for God once they are in this position?

I don't agree that we are all given the best opportunity possible to make this decision in this life though.

Where and under what environment could a previous earthly human, go to better accept God’s charity as charity, and more importantly, why not go there first and avoid this messed up world?

An example would be someone who never had good relationships in this life and hadn't learnt that we are all mutually dependent on others and dependent on God.

More “Knowledge” does not produce Love (it is a gift of God, humbly accepted as pure undeserved charity) and more time does not increase one’s humility.

By "knowledge" I don't just mean intellectual knowledge. I mean emotional and spiritual literacy as well.

What I have seen in life and in scripture: The same thing that hardens one person’s heart, can soften another person’s heart. The concept is: God (like the prodigal son’s father) is doing all He can to help willing individuals of the own free will to humbly accept His Love as pure undeserved charity, but it has to remain a real choice with likely alternatives.

I agree

In the prodigal son’s case he could have decided, since he fully deserved to starve to death in a pigsty, he would accept that punishment.

I think you're being a bit harsh on the prodigal son. He was a young man and made a bad choice.

God cannot make (force) your choice for you and that choice, be your autonomous free will choice.

Agreed.

Is a life devoid of God’s Love not a place hell or annihilation?

Yes, hell probably. I don't think we're ever completely annihilated in this life. Even Hitler would have been aware on some level that what he was doing was wrong.

The nonbeliever earthly sinner can and does accept God’s “Love” for selfish reasons, so he is not devoid of Love, yet the transaction of Love is not completed, the Love is only one sided.

I agree but does any believer ever reach a state of complete unselfishness in their love of God either?

We are selfish beings (desiring to live forever, which is a good valuable desire), so we have to have a good “selfish” reason to humbly ourselves to the point of accepting God’s charity as charity and eternal life is part of the good reason. If we are already eternal beings than that good reason is taken away and we have to have other reasons, but “Love” cannot be part of our reason because we do not yet have Godly type Love.

Why? That's like saying if you're starving and someone promises to give you food then you'll feel humility from your dependence on that person, but if they actually gave you food, you wouldn't.

Adam and Eve in the Garden would love God as wonderful obedient faultless child would love a wonderful generous Father, but they lacked the gift of Godly type Love, which is not instinctive. Adam and Eve had no reason to humble themselves to the point of accept pure undeserved charity as charity, since they had done nothing wrong, thus they deserved to be treated by their Creator justly/ fairly (lovingly) with no need of charity.

What universalism says is that when we die we are going to be purified by God. This may take place in the blink of an eye for some or most people, I of course have no idea but let's hope so. Scripture talks about an "age" for this process and that's an undefined (though finite) length of time but the word suggests that it could very well be a long time and, looking at the world, I imagine it will be for many, myself included. We will all come to see that we have, even unwittingly, caused a lot of hurt to a lot of people and this will lead to humility in all.

After Adam and Eve did sin, death came into play, limited resources, hardship, Deity not being daily physically with them, hurt and pain, and lots of ways to sin, but it also created a need for God’s charity (forgiveness), and a new heavenly home. They hid from God, so did they want God around and do selfish sinners want to be around God? How important is death and judgement in their decisions?

Selfish sinners don't want God around because that would remind them of their sin. God's refining love is felt as warmth to the relatively pure of heart but as burning heat to the sinner.

We do not want to be in a Garden situation, since Adam and Eve as our best all human representatives could not fulfill their earthly objective there, sin is needed and this messed up world is needed.

Yes, the Garden of Eden didn't work so we can't go back there. Adam and Eve clearly need to learn a lesson about something. I guess the big question is What?
 
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I agree. The question is if you really met and know God, can you still reject him?

I would like to think that no one would. For me, when I began to accept in my heart that God loved me, not because of me but because he is love and chose to love me; it made a massive difference to my life.
As I teenager, I relied on my feelings and circumstances to prove God's love - if I had a good day at school/my hay fever was controllable/I was happy etc etc, then God loved me. If the opposite was true; if God didn't answer my prayers/I failed an exam despite working hard etc etc, then it showed that God didn't love me.

It was utter foolishness to think that God would show his love, or not, through outward circumstances; he had already done that on the cross.
But some people do say, "my life's been bad/I've had a bereavement/I'm still disabled/I'm not good at anything, therefore God doesn't love me," - and I can understand that.

The problem is, though, is that Adam did know God and did disobey and reject him.
He was created by God, in his image. As God declared his creation to be very good and God is perfect, it would seem likely that his creation was perfect. Adam had the freedom of paradise, was given responsibility for naming all of the animals, had heard God speak to him, directly, so that he KNEW God's will - and he still disobeyed.
 
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Universalism, of course, does not posit reincarnation. It just says that our relationship with God continues into the next life/age where God will help us arrive at a point where we can make this choice.

If that were the case, though, why would Jesus and the Apostles have emphasised repentance before death; before it is too late?
John said that whoever does not have the Son does not have life, John 3:13, John 3:36, 1 John 5:12.
The author of Hebrews said that we die once, and then, judgement, Hebrews 9:27.
Jesus' first, recorded, words in his ministry were, "repent, the Kingdom of God is near". He told parables which ended with the unrepentant going away to eternal punishment.

Nowhere does anyone say, "live your life as you like. Don't accept God if you don't want to; after death, he'll help you to want to choose and accept him."
 
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The problem is, though, is that Adam did know God and did disobey and reject him.
He was created by God, in his image. As God declared his creation to be very good and God is perfect, it would seem likely that his creation was perfect. Adam had the freedom of paradise, was given responsibility for naming all of the animals, had heard God speak to him, directly, so that he KNEW God's will - and he still disobeyed.

Is our situation at all comparable to Adam and Eve's? We encounter God in this life, we will in the next age where "all will be salted with fire", and we will in heaven, but none of this is the same kind of relationship Adam and Eve had in the Garden of Eden.

In ant case, what was the punishment for Adam and Eve's disobedience. Was it eternal torment?

John said that whoever does not have the Son does not have life,

I agree. Note he's not saying that they will never have life. When they do have the Son, they will have life.

The author of Hebrews said that we die once, and then, judgement

Judgement doesn't always have to mean the death penalty of eternal torture. There may be a remedial sentence or even an acquittal.

Jesus' first, recorded, words in his ministry were, "repent, the Kingdom of God is near". He told parables which ended with the unrepentant going away to eternal punishment.

From what I've read, "eternal punishment" is a mistranslation. Jesus said "aionios kolasis", which means something more like "correction or pruning lasting for an age", where "age" is a possibly long but always a time limited duration. Our word "eon" comes from "aionios".

You may ask why the English Bibles don't correct this. Some have, but of course the most popular ones haven't. When you look at this forum and see the tenacious hold ECT has on people, it's not hard to see why. Most publishers would baulk at the inevitable drop in sales.

Nowhere does anyone say, "live your life as you like. Don't accept God if you don't want to; after death, he'll help you to want to choose and accept him."

And neither does Christian universalism. That's merely one of the many straw man arguments made against it. Universalism is Christo-centric and says, like every other Christian tradition, that we can only be saved after repentance and confessing that Christ is Lord. And it says that we should do this now so that we can live a Godly life here on Earth, as well as to hopefully obviate or minimise the purification we'll need in the next life.
 
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Apologies! I usually write on my phone and never read it back so my worms are often misspelt.
 
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