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Featured could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Imagican, Jun 27, 2018.

  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That's up to their freewill choice. Does God's love expire like a carton of milk?

    Freewill. Love Omnipotent has all eternity to get their cooperation.


    You already knew the answer to that before you asked it. So why ask.

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/

    http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
     
  2. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The Bible is the sole source of accurate information about what happens to those who receive Christ and those who reject Him. While the Bible is accurate, it is not exhaustive in the information it provides. There is a lot of information left out, and this is because it is not necessary for man to know that God is real, that man is created in His image, and that every individual has the choice whether to serve God in Christ, or to reject Him. In either case, there are consequences arising out of that choice. Positive consequences for those who receive Christ as Saviour, negative consequences for those who reject Him. The consequence for those who reject Christ will be everlasting separation from the grace, mercy and glory of God. We are not told exactly the type of existence those folk will have, but it will not be pleasant, and Paul warns folk not to neglect the great salvation that God offers folk in Christ.

    What we do know is that the existence of those who have rejected Christ will be conscious and unpleasant. The Bible talks about the outer darkness where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. I cannot see from my reading of Scripture that those who reject Christ will be elevated at some time in the future to the same level as those who have received Christ to enable them to enter into the joys of the Lord. Any notion that they might be is merely an unsubstantiated philosophical leap of faith that will end up being totally pointless for those who go that way.
     
  3. Imagican

    Imagican old dude

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    How could a loving and righteous God cause eternal suffering to anything or anyone? Including Satan himself? I mean 'really'? Think about it.

    What could ANY MAN DO that would warrant an eternity of literal 'suffering'. Since we only live less than a hundred years, if a man performed evil acts every moment of every day of that hundred years, how could that warrant an ETERNITY of literal 'suffering'?

    So if God did cause 'eternal suffering', that would make Him WORSE than anything any man could do if that man did it every day for a hundred years. For a punishment to 'fit the crime', it must be equitable.

    The idea that one could be condemned to an eternity of 'suffering' for simply not accepting God or His Son is ludicrous.

    You know, the Bible often uses allegory and other forms of writing that are not always LITERAL. Like in Exodus when it states that locusts covered the face of the earth, it didn't mean this literally, it meant the 'face of the earth IN EGYPT'.

    I cannot PROVE anything to anyone that doesn't want to know anything different than what they already have accepted. Even if I offered quotes from the Bible that indicate what I have offered being the truth, that wouldn't PROVE anything to someone that didn't want to interpret it in that manner.

    I am simply offering that ANY human being that thinks about it for twenty seconds realizes that it would take an UNJUST and UNRIGHTEOUS God to punish someone beyond anything equitable. That means that to be righteous and just the punishment MUST fit the crime. And nothing any man could DO would warrant an ETERNITY of 'suffering'. What Ted Bundy did wouldn't warrant or be justified by 'an eternity of pain and suffering'.

    I'm not God. Nor Christ. But I KNOW Them Both. Am I perfect? Far far far from it. Do I understand EVERYTHING? Nope. Very little in the 'Big Picture'. But I understand the difference between THE truth and 'made up' truth. I LOVE God and I LOVE Christ. Enough? Probably NOT. Does ANYONE? Probably NOT. But I am open to the influence of the Holy Spirit. I accept the convictions offered daily. Most often, from one moment to the next.

    I have not only read the Bible, I have studied it for many many years of my life. I have literally compared many individual lines of the Bible to ALL OTHERS in an attempt to gain 'the truth' on many different subjects.

    One of them is this: "eternal punishment" issue as offered by the 'churches'. From my understanding, what the 'churches' teach is NOT what we are presented in the Bible.

    Yep. You can take any ONE line of the Bible and make it mean whatever you interpret it to mean. The Bible does speak of 'eternal punishment'. But it also speaks of eternal life and that ONLY those deemed WORTHY will receive it. All others will be destroyed. All indications are that they will be destroyed as if they never existed to begin with. And that will be ETERNAL destruction. Never to exist again for ETERNITY. Whatever they 'were' will no longer 'be'.

    For a time, Satan will be punished. He will still exist while being separated from man. But upon judgement he too will 'cease to exist' FOREVER.

    It is my belief that an eternal 'ceasing to exist' is about as harsh a punishment I can imagine. Knowing that one had the opportunity to exist eternally, and then being judged according to death, that would have to be terrifying and very very sorrowful to realize.

    The New Testament focuses MUCH MORE on what has been offered than what happens if we reject the offer. God is a God of LOVE. Even those deemed unworthy to reside with Him for Eternity are LOVED by God. But if an individual is incapable of SHARING love, in truth, they are better off 'ceasing to exist' than living among God's children with a lack of ability to share love. They 'missed the mark'. They were unable to LEARN love. And being unable, there is no place in a GROUP of loving individuals for one incapable of sharing love.

    And then there is this: The possibility of 'the church' altering words placed in the Bible to lead others to believe whatever benefits 'the church'. The Bible is the 'beginning' of 'truth'. Not the end of it. And since it 'was' written by men, there is plenty of room for error. Manipulation to benefit the manipulator. The Holy Spirit is there to guide those willing to accept it's conviction. That means if the words in the Bible have been manipulated by it's writers, the Holy Spirit is able to guide those willing to SEE beyond the 'words'.

    Is the Bible THE truth? Nope. There is 'truth' in the Bible. But we don't know how much that truth has been altered to serve those that wrote it. Even the oldest manuscripts were written over a hundred years after the ORIGINALS. A hundred years is a lot of time for something to be altered.

    Take this into consideration: How many DIFFERENT versions of the Bible exist? And which TWO versions actually SAY the same things? Exactly. So which ONE is the correct one and has even it been altered by those that penned it? Altered to suit THEIR interpretation?

    Fortunately we have the Holy Spirit which is able to guide us to truth regardless of the words of MEN.

    Blessings,

    MEC
     
  4. Imagican

    Imagican old dude

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    Allow me to offer this from my own personal perspective.

    There have been many times I have found myself in a position to be offered a 'deal' for 'bad behavior. At the time I accepted the deal I honestly had hopes that I could fulfill the deal. Often I DIDN'T. Something inside me was more powerful than my own will to 'overcome'. While I promised to 'never do it again' with all sincerity. It didn't work out that way. In essence, I didn't REALLY mean it to start with. I was simply seeking a 'way out' with the least negative impact upon myself.

    Don't you think that God KNOWS what's in our hearts? Don't we KNOW that?

    So the indication of the REASON for some 'ceasing to exist' is that no matter what, time, events, situations, influence, some will NEVER change no matter what. And it is this KNOWLEDGE that has led God to cause those that CAN'T change to 'cease to exist'. He KNOWS no matter what they SAY, they will still BE who they are and revert back no matter what.

    A lot of people subscribe to Universalism. What if? What if it's partially true. That ALL will be forgiven. Even those that will end up 'ceasing to exist'? What if that is God's form of forgiveness to those that have rejected Him?

    What do we DO with a 'rabid dog'? We don't punish it by torturing it or causing it to suffer. We 'put it out of it's misery' because it's the HUMANE thing to DO.

    If we can show this type of compassion and we are UNRIGHTEOUS, to imagine God being LESS compassionate is unimaginable to me.

    But I can clearly SEE the benefit to an 'institution' that would teach such an idea of 'eternal suffering'. "You either place your faith in ME or God is going to punish you ETERNALLY when you die". A very potent means of controlling a group of people.

    And then consider that at times the 'churches' had more power over the 'people' than Kings or Queens, what wouldn't the DO in order to contain and control the 'masses'. We have the history and the examples of the 'church' torturing and murdering those that rejected THEIR teachings. Not just ONE 'church', MANY examples of MANY different 'churches' using their POWER to control the congregation when their teachings and practices were utterly contrary to the Bible.

    Having read and studied the Bible, I do not agree with MOST of what the 'churches' teach. So the idea of 'eternal pain and suffering'? As subscribed by the Catholic Church? I view it no differently than 'purgatory' or paying someone to pray FOR someone. Just a device created by people wanting to control other people. You know, there is pretty good REASON that the Catholic Church tortured and murdered those that tried to translate the Bible into languages people could actually READ. And it wasn't because they were afraid of the TRUTH.................

    Blessings,

    MEC
     
  5. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <Imag>Don't you think that God KNOWS what's in our hearts? Don't we KNOW that?
    So the indication of the REASON for some 'ceasing to exist' is that no matter what, time, events, situations, influence, some will NEVER change no matter what. And it is this KNOWLEDGE that has led God to cause those that CAN'T change to 'cease to exist'. He KNOWS no matter what they SAY, they will still BE who they are and revert back no matter what.
    A lot of people subscribe to Universalism. What if? What if it's partially true. That ALL will be forgiven. Even those that will end up 'ceasing to exist'? What if that is God's form of forgiveness to those that have rejected Him?
    What do we DO with a 'rabid dog'? We don't punish it by torturing it or causing it to suffer. We 'put it out of it's misery' because it's the HUMANE thing to DO.
    If we can show this type of compassion and we are UNRIGHTEOUS, to imagine God being LESS compassionate is unimaginable to me
    .
    [A god created in your own image. DA]

    But I can clearly SEE the benefit to an 'institution' that would teach such an idea of 'eternal suffering'. "You either place your faith in ME or God is going to punish you ETERNALLY when you die". A very potent means of controlling a group of people.
    And then consider that at times the 'churches' had more power over the 'people' than Kings or Queens, what wouldn't the DO in order to contain and control the 'masses'. We have the history and the examples of the 'church' torturing and murdering those that rejected THEIR teachings. Not just ONE 'church', MANY examples of MANY different 'churches' using their POWER to control the congregation when their teachings and practices were utterly contrary to the Bible.
    Having read and studied the Bible, I do not agree with MOST of what the 'churches' teach. So the idea of 'eternal pain and suffering'? As subscribed by the Catholic Church? I view it no differently than 'purgatory' or paying someone to pray FOR someone. Just a device created by people wanting to control other people. You know, there is pretty good REASON that the Catholic Church tortured and murdered those that tried to translate the Bible into languages people could actually READ. And it wasn't because they were afraid of the TRUTH.................
    Blessings,

    MEC<end>
    The problem with this summary is 1000+ years before there was a Catholic church supposedly "wanting to control other people," according to the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
    Clarification: There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. I am addressing only the belief stated above, Any other beliefs are not relevant to this response.

    Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
    The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
    Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators.
    (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

    Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    Encyclopedia Judaica:
    Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

    During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
    In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
    Gehinnom
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
    When Jesus taught about,
    • “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
    • "
    cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
    • “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
    These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment......The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and it was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
    …..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment” to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced instead of correcting their belief.
     
  6. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    What you are saying is influenced by modernist theology, which maintains that although the Bible contains religious ideals, it is full of mistakes and many passages could be taken as "not necessarily so." As for me, I hold to the reformed view that the Bible is totally accurate, and that the different translations state basically the same things and any differences are very minor and do not alter what the Bible is actually saying. The different translations merely use different words to express the original languages. It is just that the meaning of words change over time and some words that had meaning in the 1600s have different meanings today, so this is why we have updated versions of the Bible to maintain the correct meanings of the original languages.

    The Bible is quite clear that those who receive Christ are made righteous and accepted by God, and those who rebel against God will receive eternal punishment. One of the effects of modernist theology is the trend away from the death penalty for deliberate murder, yet the Bible is very clear that if a man kills another he must suffer the death penalty. This is because he has killed someone who was created in the image of God. The reason why this has happened is because modernist theology makes man the product of time and chance and therefore basically nothing. In fact modernist theology man is actually lower than fallen man, so murder is seen as less tragic as it was in Bible times.

    The idea that a loving God would not punish those who rebel against Him comes out of humanist philosophy, and sadly, this is affecting the evangelical Church and if this continues, those churches will be totally consumed with theology that denies the existence of a Personal-Infinite God, replacing Him with a "leap of blind faith" caricature of a religious god to compensate for the pessimism and hopelessness of man no longer knowing who he is and where he is going in history.
     
  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What relevance do such extrabiblical Jewish beliefs have? Jesus said to beware of the teaching of the Pharisees, who BTW believed in endless punishment.

    "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14). Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

    Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.



    Scripture says:

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."
    (Titus 1:14).

    Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)




    Unproven & irrelevant. Whether true or not. Scripture says:

    "Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

    "Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14). Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

    Jesus, speaking to Pharisees, said:

    John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.



    2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    Such as the fable or myth of endless torments of the Dark & Middle ages, Inquisitions, Crusades, burning of "heretics", etc.

    In contrast to the fables & myths of endless torments, Paul says again to Timothy:

    1Tim.4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    1Tim.2 1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-torments-were-true-is-god-a-monster.8042349/


    continued next post:
     
  8. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Those are deceptive erroneous translations:

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/augustines-ignorance-error-re-matthew-25-46.8041938/

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/have-you-been-decieved-by-your-bible-translation.8039822/

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...in-duration-with-aionion-in-mt-25-46.8069208/



    Mark 9 43-49 addressed here:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...sition-to-endless-hell.8042016/#post-72141156


    Addressed at the following url. Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-a-universalism.8070242/page-14#post-72882151


    Addressed here:

    Matthew 7:21-23:
    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...torture-in-fire.8041369/page-35#post-72162632

    Addressed here:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...sition-to-endless-hell.8042016/#post-72141042


    Nope. That's pure assumption. And wrong.

    A fate compared to death is nothing. Death is merely the instant one passes from this life to the next. And the word "nonexistence" is nowhere used in the Old or New Testaments. The urls above address those Matthew passages in detail.


    That passages opposes your theories:

    10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

    Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

    Heb.1:2a in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all

    Heb.1:3b When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high

    Heb.2:2b every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty

    Heb.2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
    7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

    8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put
    under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

    9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by
    the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render
    powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

    15 And might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

    He didn't teach "eternal punishment". Neither did He use the language you quoted above from some Jews, e.g. Pharisees. Instead He warned His disciples re the false teachings of the Pharisees & their "traditions of men" that oppose the Word of God. He said not to give heed to Jewish fables & myths. That includes horror tales as like what you've quoted above from Judaism, which opposes Biblical Christianity.
     
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'd suggest the idea that Love Omnipotent would not endlessly torment or snuff out anyone forever comes out of Scripture:

    I think it(aidios) was a superior word to use relative to the ambiguous aion & aionios, if God was a believer in endless punishment. Moreover, as opposed to aion and aionios (which are often used of finite duration), God had a number of other words & expressions available that would also have better served to express endless punishment, if Love Omnipotent were a believer of such. But He never uses such of eschatological punishment. So the reasonable conclusion is that Love Omnipotent rejected using such words and expressions of a final destiny of endless punishment because He knew better & He rejected the notion that anyone will endure endless punishment. Those words & expresssions are:

    1. no end (Lk.1:33)...this expression is used of God's kingdom having "no end". It is never used of anyone's torments or punishment. We never read of anyone receiving torments that will have "no end". This unambiguous phrase, "no end", would have been a superior choice to the ambiguous words aion & aionion, if Love Omnipotent had a belief in endless torments or annihilation. But He rejected its use in expressing such a fate.

    2. endless (1 Tim.1:4)...Again if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments, why didn't He use this word to express it, instead of the ambiguous aion & aionion, which often refer to finite durations in ancient Greek usage?

    3. never (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

    "Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..." http://biblehub.com/commentaries/benson/mark/9.htm

    Yet Scripture - never - uses such language. Moreover, it speaks of death being abolished, not being "for ever".

    4. eternal (Rom.1:16; Jude 1:6)...this word, AIDIOS, is used of God's "eternal" power & "eternal" chains that bind until the day of judgement. It is never used of anyone's final destiny. We never read of anyone being tormented for eternal ages. We never read of anyone suffering eternal (AIDIOS) punishment. If Jude believed in endless punishment, he had the perfect opportunity at Jude 1:6 by simply adding that the angels would suffer the judgement of eternal (AIDIOS) punishment or torments. Instead of warning his readers of such a horrificly monstrous fate, as he should have been morally obligated to do if it were a real possibility, instead he conveys the relatively utterly lame & insignificant info that these angelic beings will be kept in chains until judgement day. OTOH, consider:

    "Instead of saying with Philo and Josephus, thanaton athanaton, deathless or immortal death; eirgmon aidion, eternal imprisonment; aidion timorion, eternal torment; and thanaton ateleuteton, interminable death, he [Jesus] used aionion kolasin..." http://www.tentmaker.org/books/prevailing/upd3.html

    "Nyssa defined the vision of God promised there as "life without end, eternal incorruption, undying beatitude [ten ateleuteton zoen, ten aidion aphtharsian , ten athanaton makarioteta]." ("Christianity and Classical Culture: The Metamorphosis of Natural Theology in ..." By Jaroslav Pelikan, p.165 @): https://books.google.ca/books?id=3V...5DMMQ6AEIODAE#v=onepage&q=ateleuteton&f=false

    5. unfading (1 Pet.1:4; 5:4)...Peter uses this word of an endless inheritance reserved in heaven & a crown of glory. It is never used of the endless pain, punishment or torments that anyone will receive. Can it be denied that this would have been a superior word (over aion & aionios) to use to express such a horrific destiny if Love Omnipotent actually had such in store for anyone? Wouldn't He want to express warnings about it in the clearest ways possible?

    6. found no place for repentance (Heb.12:17)...is used in Heb.12:17 of the loss of a finite earthly blessing..."he found no place of repentance, although having earnestly sought it with tears". Never is it used regarding those in Gehenna, Hades, the lake of fire, or eschatological punishment. Never do we read of those cast into any "hell" that they will not (or never) find a place of repentance, even though they earnestly seek it with tears. God was quite capable of expressing such in His Holy Scriptures. But rather than give such a warning, as Love Omnipotent should have if such an unbelievably horrific future awaited anyone, instead we are told of the relatively lame loss of a finite earthly blessing. Such a waste of words if endless punishment were really true.

    7. In Mt.18:6 is the lame warning of a punishment which is compared to mere drowning, which is nothing compared to being kept alive for the sole purpose of being tortured for all the "endless" ages of eternity that have "no end" & "never" cease. Jesus says it is "better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea". OTOH, if He had been a believer in endless punishment, He could have expressed that by saying it is better for them to have never lived, never been conceived, or that their parents had never known (had sex with) one another. Compare this anti-biblical Jewish view that the Lord Jesus Christ, Love Omnipotent, rejected:

    "To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b)." http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6558-gehenna
     
  10. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The Scripture is fairly plain in that those who rebel against God and reject Christ will not be permitted to share in the same joys and the glory of God that those who have received Christ as Saviour. The Scripture is also clear that the type of existence that is awaiting those who have rejected Christ will not be pleasant.
     
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Saul was a "rebel" against God, even a persecutor & inquisitionist of Christians, women as well as men. Yet this "chief of sinners" obtained mercy.

    Those who "die in their sins" & are "unrighteous" will not be able to enter the kingdom of God. But there is nothing in Scripture indicating they cannot thereafter find salvation.

    Yes, that is quite clear.

    As someone once said, There is an infinite difference between a God who will torture beings infinitely & a God who will not.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  12. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I don't think that you will find one Scripture in the Bible that will support a person dying having rejected Christ and then ultimately being saved. That is not a Biblical concept. It may be a modernist existential, "leap of blind faith" concept but you will not find a single reference in the Bible that would support the view of the ultimate salvation of rebellious sinners who reject Christ. The Bible says that such people are condemned already. They are dead in their sins. Only by receiving Jesus as their Saviour will save them. But once they physically die in their sins without receiving Christ, the time of God's grace is over for them, and there is only a looking forward to God's judgment.
     
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I've never seen one that definitively denies it. Surely Love Omnipotent would have been crystal clear about it if such an unbelievably horrific destiny as endless tortures or destruction awaited anyone. OTOH, i can see many Scriptures that could be interpreted in favor of universalism, which necessarily implies postmortem repentance for those who die in sin. Additionally i see that many Scriptures clearly indicating God's punishments premortem are corrective in purpose, but none that any such are definitely not corrective. Does God or His ways suddenly change postmortem regarding punishment? Moreover i also see Scriptures that can easily be interpreted as supporting God's intentions for postmortem salvation of the lost, & salvation of the lost after Christ's yet future return.

    Yes, this is all Scripture based, of course.

    People often refer to Hebrews 9:27 as support for your remarks. My perspective on that is posted here:

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/is-there-salvation-after-death.8041377/page-7#post-72135392

    Another passage referred to on this subject is Luke 16:19-31:

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/hell.8041357/page-6#post-72139130
     
  14. Imagican

    Imagican old dude

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    Question:

    If God created 'forgiveness', wouldn't it be crucial that He be the ONE to 'begin forgiveness'?

    Question:

    If God is love, could He truly condemn anyone of anything to an eternity of 'pain and suffering'?

    Is the Bible 100 percent accurate as one has proposed? Impossible. For there is NOTHING pertaining to man that is 'perfect'. For the one that says he believes the Bible is 100 percent accurate: which Bible? Which 'book' written by men is THE Bible that is 100 percent accurate? For I have read numerous different versions of the Bible and every one I have read is DIFFERENT than ALL others. So which version is THE version that is 100 percent accurate?

    Blessings,

    MEC
     
  15. Imagican

    Imagican old dude

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    How about this scripture: With God ALL THINGS are possible. In other words, God could offer information on how something is accomplished for the masses. But that doesn't mean that the information offered is the ONLY way. God does what God chooses to DO. And what He may offer you isn't of a necessity the same thing He offers to another or EVERYONE.

    Some say: "Well that's just not fair". It is isn't about being 'fair' from our perspective.

    Do you think that everyone suffers the SAME temptations or tragedy in their lives? Of course not. Some suffer more, some less. Is this 'fair'? It is not about being 'fair'.

    And what if? What if certain words have been altered in the Bible. Certain phrases. Altered in order to bring about a 'meaning' that was never meant to be conveyed by God?

    Blessings,

    MEC
     
  16. Imagican

    Imagican old dude

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    Firstly. I don't consider myself a 'modernist' but more a traditionalist according to THE BIBLE. Having studied, not only the Bible itself, but the history of the Bible, I have been FORCED to the conclusion that it cannot be without flaws placed there by MEN. Some by accident, perhaps, but some INTENTIONAL. Placed there to benefit those that placed alterations there. That is most likely the 'reason' that the Bible itself, (one of the 'parts' without flaw), STATES that without guidance from the Holy Spirit, what is contained within the book won't be understood by intellect or the words ALONE.

    And your offering that the different versions of the Bibles simply use easier to understand language? Couldn't be further from the 'truth'. I have NEVER found any two versions of the Bible that MATCH what they offer. Not only do they use different 'words'. They often eliminate items and add items that utterly alter the meaning from each other.

    Never once have I indicated that those that reject God will not be punished. Nor refuted that their punishment will be ETERNAL.

    I have simply offered that if one 'ceased to exist' forever, that would be an 'eternal punishment'.

    I do not believe in the 'death penalty'. Not for being a 'modernist', but by accepting what Christ has offered concerning forgiveness. Plus, our system has never done ENOUGH to ensure that innocent people aren't convicted and sentenced to death. How often do we see modern technology prove the innocence of those convicted and sentenced to 'death'. Now, let us consider how many innocents have been MURDERED by our system BEFORE technology or some other factor PROVED their innocence. Don't want that on MY head or in my heart. So I am opposed to murdering someone for murdering someone else. I believe forgiveness is the FIRST step to becoming a 'follower of Christ'. I know. It's often a very very very very hard thing to accomplish, forgiveness, but I believe we MUST learn to forgive if we expect to be forgiven.

    My ideas of the Bible have been formed by NO 'school of thought' so far as 'others' are concerned. I began my studies with NO 'pre-conceived notions. No 'religion' in my background unless it was 'living FOR and IN this world'. My understanding comes strictly as a product of study and what I believe 'guidance or conviction' of the Holy Spirit. I have been accused by many Catholics of being 'more' Catholic than they are. And I have been accused by Pentacostals of being a Satanist.

    The last: God has, I believe, punished me MANY times. Sometimes that is the only manner He can use to teach us. And I still maintain that I can think of a more extreme punishment than 'ceasing to exist for eternity'. Erased as if one never existed to begin with.

    Eternal pain and suffering would require one having some form of existence for ETERNITY. That would be far BETTER than 'ceasing to exist for eternity'. At least you would still exist.....And there is ALWAYS hope for those able to overcome.

    I know that you don't know me. But I can assure you that I read NO writings of men pertaining to God or Christ. The only exposure I have ever had to 'other ideas' is through the 'churches', personal contact, and most often, here on the forums. So you would be hard pressed to come up with any sort of accurate label for me other than something like: 'one man show'. For my beliefs have yet to be recognized in 'any others'. Bits and pieces at best.

    And I DO believe in the Bible as revealed through the Holy Spirit. The 'words' in the Bible? They were penned by men of whom we have NO IDEA who they even were. If you disagree, I would ask you then, "who penned the Dead Sea Scrolls"? For we have absolutely NO evidence that they were penned by the original authors. And a lot can happen in a hundred years...........

    All evidence points to the last chapter of Mark NOT being written by Mark. Not only do the experts find that chapter to be questionable, I TOO find that it does NOT FIT his style of writing and the way it is worded does not match the previous chapter. All evidence points to either Mark never finishing the book that goes by his name, or the end of being lost somehow and someone else having to finish it for that it has a proper ending.

    Note also that Mark tells a completely different account of Christ's LAST 'last supper' than the other gospels.......

    I have tried to accept a 'literal Bible' only for revelation to reveal otherwise over and over. Not of my own accord, (I would LOVE to believe it is flawless), but through spiritual guidance, (at least what I believe to be Spiritual guidance). For I am not afraid nor ashamed to ASK God for understanding. And more than willing to accept it when offered.

    But, for the sake of conversation: How is one to be eternally punished with pain and suffering without receiving 'eternal life'?

    Blessings,

    MEC
     
  17. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    He couldn't, He won't, He doesn't. The Bible tells me so. Which Bible? The original Greek & Hebrew correctly translated. Is there such a Bible translated into English? I'd recommend studying the more literal translations, e.g. YLT, CLV, Greek-English Interlinears, etc.

    One of the more controversial Greek words is aionion which many pro endless hell cloned versions translate often as "eternal". But many literal versions render it as "age lasting", "eonian" etc.

    http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/
     
  18. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    What is the context of the Scripture, "With God all things are possible"? I don't think the context was concerning what happens to folks in eternity. Error comes when verses are quoted out of context. We need to look at the 10 verses before and after the quote to see what the writer was actually talking about. I could quite easily use that quote to say that I am going to win Lotto in Wednesday's draw because all things are possible, but there is no guarantee that will happen.
     
  19. Chinchilla

    Chinchilla Well-Known Member

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    It's actually that plus the eternal torment . Look story (not parable , in parables people have no names ) of Lazarus and rich man , rich man was not in denial of God's existence and was not crying against unjust punishment he just asked for some mercy and to save his brothers by telling them of this place of suffering .

    He could remember .
    He could feel.
    He knew it was forever .

    Best part of it that it's not even Lake of Fire but temporary prison untill Great White Throne Judgement .

    God will resurrect these dead people only to judge them and throw them to eternal fire .

    He would not bother resurrecting them if they were to stop existing nor would he hold them in prison tormenting them but let them perish as fast as possible but that's not the cause .
     
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'd suggest the context reveals the subject related to that statement is salvation.

    23And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24“Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
     
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