Look at the scene at the last part of Isaiah 66. Consider Daniel 12:1-2 as to they will rise to everlasting shame and contempt. /abhor
In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:
4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)
The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:
Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]
Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ
Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)
Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame
In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".
In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, "shame everlasting [eonian]" in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.
Two Questions
their worm -dieth not - seems to be the soul
spirit/soul/body - the body will die after being tormented, but it is not the worm
The scene is on the new earth. The righteous go forth and view and abhor the wicked men that died, but their worm lives.
Isa.66:23 And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD.
Isa.66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
(1) First of all, Isa.66:22-24 makes no mention of what has become of the souls of the "corpses" referred to:
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
(2) Secondly, nothing in verses 22-24 says verses 23 & 24 refer to the lake of fire or the new earth. Consider Option A at the following re a premillennial take on Isa.65 & 66:
Isaiah 65-66: The Vision (Part 3) - Wasilla Bible Church
(3) I wonder how "corpses" (v.24) would survive in a lake of fire. Or worms (v.24) . OTOH worms could survive in a millennial eon garbage dump called Gehenna. As could "corpses" survive that were in parts of the garbage dump that were not completely consumed by fire.
(4) If it were the new earth, why does verse 23 refer to new moons and the sabbath?
“The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee; but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory” (Isa.60:19)
Rev.21:22 But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 And the city has no need for sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.
(5) Even if the reference is to the new earth, if there are still "corpses" of the dead in the lake of fire, how is it that death has already been abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28)?
"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."
(6) For an interesting take on our passage, there is this alleged view:
"It is interesting that many of these comments touch on the concept that is well-articulated by C.S. Lewis' mentor, George McDonald, in his sermon, "The Consuming Fire." The concept is that God himself is the consuming fire and he will burn away all our iniquities, including those of Satan, who will emerge from the experience as the purified Lucifer, as he was created to be. This is what is pictured in Isaiah 66:24 where all beings will look upon their old selves as carcasses burning in God's eternally consuming fire. To understand this picture one must realize that the perspective is that of a totally redeemed eternal being looking back on his or her past life and sensing some regret for their own sins."
Origen on the Salvation of the Devil
7) In any case, when death is abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28) & all are made new (Rev.21:5, 5:13), the dead in the second death (lake of fire) will rise back to life "in Christ" & God will be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:22,28). IOW there will be universal salvation of every person that has ever lived since Adam was created.
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
Mark9:49 "For everyone will be salted with fire."
Nothing there says tortures are endless. Instead it refers to a fire and worm. And a fire that is not quenched can end or burn out on it's own, as proven by:
"Let us see how the word "asbestos (unquenchable) was used by the Greeks. Strabo calls it the lamp in the Parthenon, and Plutarch calls the sacred fire of a temple "unquenchable," though they were extinguished long ago. Josephus, the Jewish Priest who saw the destruction of Jerusalem says that the fire on the altar of the temple at Jerusalem was "always unquenchable" abeston aei, yet he was there when the fire on the altar was forever extinguished. Eusibius, the church historian who lived in Constantine's day says that certain martyrs of Alexandria "were burned in unquenchable fire." The fire was put out within an hour! Homer speaks of "unquenchable laughter" asbestos gelos, (Iliad, I: 599)"
Bible Threatening Explained
Nothing here says they stay in Gehenna for endless ages, so can't come out. Neither does it say that while in Gehenna there is no salvation. In the book of Revelation the gates into the city of God are always open. God says He is making "all" new (21:5).
unquenchabe is limited not endless...ancient examples given here:
A key to Universalism
Mark 9:43: "into Gehenna, into the unextinguished fire." First, the word "unquenchable" in the Bible is translated from the Greek word asbestos which simply means "not quenched." In itself, that is not the same as "not ABLE to be quenched" or "unquenchable." It is similar to God's judgments being without appeal "until they have finished all his plans:"
"The fierce anger of the LORD will not diminish until it has finished all his plans. In the days to come, you will understand all this.."(Jer 30:24).
As for an immortal worm that never dies, some ECT commentators say it refers to the immortal soul. ECTers can't agree amongst themselves what it means & Jesus didn't elaborate. In Isaiah 66 the worm is spoken of in the same verse that speaks of "corpses". So, they could be eating dead bodies during the millennial age eon.
"Perhaps unbeknownst to many traditionalists who cite this verse as a challenge to conditionalism, Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24 here, in which it is said explicitly that it is corpses being consumed by fire and maggots—not living beings. Those traditionalists who are aware of this nevertheless insist that the worm is depicted as never dying and the fire as never going out. But this is not what these idioms communicate."
"The phrase “does not die” is used several times in the Hebrew scripture and does not mean will never die (Genesis 42:20; Exodus 30:20; Jeremiah 38:24). It means that someone or something will not die at a particular time or in a particular context."
how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire
So such references could be about eating sinners sins or evil flesh nature till it is gone.
"Interesting aside, for what it may mean to anyone... Maggots are making a comeback in modern medicine. They gently debride wounds in a way no surgeon, however subtle, could possibly achieve. (
Medical Maggots™ (maggot therapy, maggot debridement therapy, MDT, biotherapy, biosurgery, biodebridement, larval therapy) | Monarch Labs - Advanced Wound BioSurgery) They nibble away the dead and decaying cells, allowing healthy, new, regenerated cells to thrive instead. Maggots only eat dead tissue, leaving the living tissue to thrive. I think there's a big parallel there, but maybe I'm taking the "book of nature" to extremes. My husband's doctor at Mayo told me they had them there, available by prescription only--special hygienic ones, of course! :lol: "
"All these things we consider to be bad (by knee-jerk reaction at least) can also be seen as good--judgment, brimstone (aka sulfur & also used in medicine then and now), even maggots. Fire also is used in scripture as symbolic of purification--and we mustn't forget the nature of our God, who is, we're told, "a consuming fire."
http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=7523
"Now, salt too, just as the divine fire, is associated with the eschatological test in Mark 9:49, a text I have already analysed, where this fire is presented as purifying and performing the disinfecting function of salt: “all will be salted by this fire,” if they have lost their salt in this life." (Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp., p.53)
"Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there [Gehenna] until you have paid up the last cent. The word ―until unmistakably confirms Gehenna is of a limited duration. Once the penalty is exacted, release follows, but not before. Note He addressed these words to a mixed audience of believers and unbelievers (Mt. 5:1;7:28; 8:1). (See also Mt. 18:34-35)."
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Jn.1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
4:39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.
42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
