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Featured could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Imagican, Jun 27, 2018.

  1. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    When people and places are named, we can be fairly sure that they are historical events, whether in the visible or invisible world. I believe that the event of the rich man and Lazarus happened at a definite time in history and Jesus has given us a record of it for our instruction.
     
  2. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Even of the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) it is not stated how long his torments would last while there. Or denied that they could end while still there. Nor is it denied he could be saved while still in Hades. The rich man's Saviour is in Hades:

    "If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol = Hades), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

    The rich man is called "son" (literally, "child") :

    Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things

    "Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognised as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

    The rich man in Hades is receiving the Word of Truth from Abraham. If not to lead those there to repentance & salvation, why would anyone in Hades be receiving such truths.

    When it is implied that the rich man is where he is due to his lack of compassion for his fellow man, in particular Lazarus, he responds positively by turning his attention from himself to his brethren still alive & requests that they be warned about Hades. Is the rich man turning from his selfishness & showing concern for others?

    The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

    " “And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.” "

    " "So even if we made the mistake of trying to extract from the details of this parable a position on the issue of whether there will be further chances, there still wouldn’t be much cause for taking this passage as supporting the doctrine of no further chances with any force at all. For as long as the [one] who believes in further chances sensibly allows for the possibility that, while punishment is occurring, those suffering from it can’t just end it any time they want, she can make perfectly good sense of the words this parable puts into the mouth of Father Abraham. After all, if a road has been covered with deep enough snow drifts, we’ll tell someone who must drive on that stretch of road to get to where we are, “You cannot cross over from there to us.” We’ll say this quite properly and truthfully, even if we know full well that the road will be cleared in a few days, or that, in a great enough emergency, a helicopter could be used to get across to us even today, if, say, we’re at a hospital. [But doesn’t that show that there is a sense, then, in which they can cross over to us? Yes, there’s a perfectly good sense in which they can, and a perfectly good sense in which they cannot. For enlightening and accessible explanations of the meaning of “can” and related words, I recommend Angelica Kratzer’s “What ‘Must’ and ‘Can’ Must and Can Mean” (Linguistics and Philosophy 1 (1977): pp. 337-355) and example 6 (“Relative Modality”) of David Lewis’s “Scorekeeping in a Language Game” (Journal of Philosophical Logic 8 (1979): pp. 339-359.]"

    The duration, nature, intensity & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

    We might also want to consider these passages in the same book of Luke's gospel:

    Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.

    Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.

    Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
    and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
    and the crooked shall be made straight,
    and the rough ways made smooth;
    Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”

    Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

    But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

    Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
    Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

    Lk17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”



    Luke 16:19-31 rich man in "hell"
     
  3. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Agreed. :)
     
  4. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    The punishment of the wicked isn't eternal. The Greek word aionios is wrongly translated. This idea of eternal torment also requires one to believe another doctrine that is not Biblical, that is the doctrine of the Immortal Soul. Paul tells us that the Father alone has immortality. Therefore there is no immortal soul. In the Bible the word soul is used of living beings. Fish are called souls and other animals are called souls. When God created man He did so from the dust. Then God breathed into the man the breath or spirit of life and the man became a living soul. This tells us that soul consists of two parts, the man (body) and the breath or spirit of life from God. This tells us that man is a physical being. There is no part of him that lives on after death. Thus, there is no immortal soul.
     
  5. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    The punishment of the wicked isn't eternal. The Greek word aionios is wrongly translated. This idea of eternal torment also requires one to believe another doctrine that is not Biblical, that is the doctrine of the Immortal Soul. Paul tells us that the Father alone has immortality. Therefore there is no immortal soul. In the Bible the word soul is used of living beings. Fish are called souls and other animals are called souls. When God created man He did so from the dust. Then God breathed into the man the breath or spirit of life and the man became a living soul. This tells us that soul consists of two parts, the man (body) and the breath or spirit of life from God. This tells us that man is a physical being. There is no part of him that lives on after death. Thus, there is no immortal soul.

    There are three Greek words translated "life" in the NT, zoe, bios and psuche. Only zoe is ever used with aionios. If aionios does not mean eternal I guess the believers life is not eternal.
    In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

    Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
    9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
    10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
    11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
    [ . . . ]
    22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
    In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
    Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
    Here is another passage where God Himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

    Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
    18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
    19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
    20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
    21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
    22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
    Eze 32:30-31
    (30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
    (31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
    Jesus speaking, a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.
    Luk 16:22-28
    (22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
    (23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    (24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    (25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
    (26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
    (27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
    (28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.​



     
  6. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Are you sure?
    In the following twenty three verses αἰών and αἰώνιος are defined/described by association with other words and phrases as eternal, everlasting etc.: 1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33, Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 16:26, John 8:51.

    …..In the NT “aion/aionios” are used to refer to things which are not eternal but are never defined/described, by other words and phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal as in the following verses.

    [1]Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    [2]Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios,” therefore Paul evidently considers “aidios” and “aionios” to be synonymous.
    [3]1 Timothy 1:17.
    (17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
    (17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
    (18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary.” “Eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [5]2 Corinthians 5:1
    (1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
    In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Does the UR crowd think God is going to replace our destroyed earthly house with an ages long house which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [7]1 Peter 1:23
    (23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
    1 Peter 1:25
    (25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
    In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
    [8]1 Timothy 6:16
    (16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting[αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
    [9]Galatians 6:8
    (8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;[φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
    [10]John 6:58
    (58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [11]John 10:28
    (28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    Here “aionios” and “aion” are paired with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
    [12]1 John 2:17
    (17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”
    [13]1 Peter 5:10
    (10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does the UR crowd think that Jesus will give His followers an finite period of glory then they will eventually die? Thus “aionios” here means “eternal.”
    [14]Romans 2:7
    (7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
    [15]Luke 1:33
    (33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
    In this verse “aionas” is paired with “without end.” “aionas” cannot be paired with “without end” if it means only “ages” a finite period. “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
    [16]Revelation 14:11
    (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
    [17]John 10:28
    (28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand.” If “aionion” is only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” by definition here means eternal.
    [18]John 3:15
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” They could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
    [19]John 3:16
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” People could eventually perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
    [20]John 5:24
    (24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
    [21]Romans 5:21
    (21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
    In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
    [22]Ephesians 3:21
    (21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
    In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
    [23]John 8:51
    (51) Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona/no not unto the aion] see death."
    According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative "ou mé" signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying they will die, i.e. see death, unto the age. By definition "aion" means eternity.

     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That claim has been answered & disproven many times before, e.g.:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...os-based-on-aion.8040292/page-2#post-72110302

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...torture-in-fire.8041369/page-25#post-72149978

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...k-a-universalism.8070242/page-8#post-72862899

    OTOH here we see many examples where αἰών and αἰώνιος are defined/described as being of a finite duration:

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

    http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/

    12 points re forever and ever being a deceptive translation & being finite:
    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038

    Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-a-universalism.8070242/page-14#post-72882151
     
  8. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That argument is extremely confusing. Who can understand what the author is trying to say? First he speaks of "aionas aionion" as meaning a "finite period" & then, in the same sentence, he refers to it being "forever and forever". Which is it, forever or finite?

    If someone said to me "I have had no rest day or night", this could mean for a period of 24 hours. Not forever and ever.

    If someone said to me "I've had no rest day or night for ages", this could mean for a finite period of days, weeks or months. It doesn't mean forever. BTW the phrase 'forever and ever' in Rev.14:11 literally translates as "to ages of ages". So having no rest day or night for "ages" can mean for a short or long time of finite duration.

    Here is the literal translation from a Greek-English Interlinear:

    http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/14-11.htm

    Scripture also speaks of night being "no more". So can "day and night" be forever?

    For 12 arguments re "ages of ages" ending, see posts 130 & 131 @

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...hilationsim-vs-eternal-torment.8019864/page-7

    This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
  9. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Some of your posted ideas are headed in the right direction - in line with what Yahweh says (and most thankfully not what man's religion(s) say) ;
    and some are not in line with what Yahweh says (subject to clarifying/ testing).

    Your chosen 'label' says "Christian Seeker", right ?

    What does that mean ?
     
  10. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Those who side with the devil in rebellion against God and against Christ will end up in the same place as the devil and his angels will end up after God has finished His day of Judgment. If the devil will never be saved, neither will his children - as Jesus said to the godless religious hypocrites, "Ye are of your father the devil." Therefore the devil and the children he has spawned will all end up in the same place, and it won't be in the same place as Christ and those who have received Him as Saviour. And, according to Revelation, guess where the devil and all who align themselves to him will end up? Read it for yourself! There won't be a merger of the kingdom of darkness and the Kingdom of God at any time in the future.
     
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
    All was created through Him and for Him.

    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    1 Cor.15:28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.

    https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/snippets-from-my-hard-copy-ur-library/1904/2212?u=origen
     
  12. Imagican

    Imagican old dude

    +310
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    It means that I am well aware that I DO NOT possess 'all' the answers. I am steel seeking THE truth without letting the little I have learned 'get in the way'.

    Am I a 'Christian'? Can't answer that. Well, let's put it another way: I WON'T answer that. I will offer that if I am, I'm surely a very very very BAD Christian. Bad as in POOR example. Like I said, I'm interested in THE truth. Not a means of pretending that I'm 'special'.

    But I DO KNOW this: many things I have asked forgiveness for, I KNOW I have been forgiven. But not ALL that I have asked for forgiveness.

    Blessings,

    MEC
     
  13. Imagican

    Imagican old dude

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    Read it over and over and over again. It is my understanding that even the Devil, at one point, will be DESTROYED. Cease to exist for 'eternity'. His punishment will be for a 'time'. And then he will 'cease to exist'.

    Common sense folks............If an 'entity' ceases to exist, it is no longer able to 'feel' ANYTHING.

    So if we are to suffer the same fate as the Devil, at what 'time' does the punishment take place?

    It MUST take place 'before' we 'cease to exist'. That is one of the reasons I offered the possibility of our 'dreams' as we 'sleep' may well be our punishment.

    Some awake to a NEW and different form of 'life' and others will awake to the judgment of 'eternal separation' through the 'second death'. That being an utter separation from 'life itself'.

    But I will offer this: nothing we can DO can alter our fate if the REASON that we do what we do is to prevent what happens to US. You cannot prevent your fate by simply being afraid of 'the suffering'. That is no different than any other sort of 'pretending'.

    Blessings,

    MEC
     
  14. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +8,928
    Anabaptist
    Did you ever sign up for the military service ?
    Or know some people who did ?

    Could you imagine what would happen if in the preliminary interview or even AFTER signing on the dotted line,
    they went through the requirements (duty , obedience, being "property of" the USA)
    and
    scratched out some of them they didn't agree with ?

    They either would not get enlisted, or, if already enlisted, they still would be forced to comply with all the rules and regulations or face the consequences.

    On judgment day, the consequences are eternal death (regardess of what that means for now), PAIN and SUFFERING an UNquenchable fire (for some amount of time at least) ....

    The penalty for sin is separation from God. Death. Not life.

    Unforgiven sin (unrepented of) has extreme serious consequences regardless of what anyone thinks.

    Seek the Truth, and keep seeking, as God Says, WHILE IT IS STILL LIGHT (while you are able to)..... there comes a day (or night?/ death? ) , there comes a time, when no one will be able to repent and be forgiven any more, regardless of how much they try.
     
  15. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +8,928
    Anabaptist
    Common sense folks............If an 'entity' ceases to exist, it is no longer able to 'feel' ANYTHING."

    Good! In line with God's Word ---- the "dead" in the grave do not know anything, they cannot praise nor curse nor see nor feel anything.
     
  16. Imagican

    Imagican old dude

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    I have an interesting question:

    Do you believe that there are things revealed to individuals that are not in the Bible? That some are able to bear more and are therefore GIVEN more?

    It is my belief that upon more than one occasion I has been revealed to me that when we 'sleep' upon physical death, we WILL dream or experience NIGHTMARES. And that this will take place for at LEAST 'one thousand years', (certainly it will SEEM like an eternity. Especially considering that at that TIME, we will be OUTSIDE of time). Ever had a 'nightmare that seemed to last FOREVER until it was 'over'? Exactly. Imagine, if you can, a five minute nightmare that SEEMED to last for HOURS. Now try to imagine that nightmare last to a YEAR. Or TEN years. or a THOUSAND years..........................

    Now imagine how thankful you would be when it ended. But how heartbroken you would be to realize that it only ended in order for you to receive the ultimate 'death sentence'. Eternal death.

    Blessings,

    MEC
     
  17. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +8,928
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    Yes, of course things are revealed to individuals, both saved and unsaved, that are not in the Bible.
    They are not given more just because they can bear more, but
    no one is given more than they can bear, yes.
    Your nightmares might be right on. The torture, the burning, the excruciating pain is going to be real, if it is not already.
    No need to imagine it. It happens. It is written. It is true and real.

    You won't be thankful though when it ends, if it ends.
    No one undergoing the pain of separation from Yahweh is thankful.
    (btw, tangent, the devil and the demons are never thankful either)

    If it ends, you won't know it.
    If it ends, you won't expect it, nor feel any relief that someday it will or might end.
    You won't see nor hear anyone.
    You will simply be consumed with a worm,(or by a worm) (or worms?) continually eating your flesh, but never finished.
    Constant torment, without ever a drop of water for relief.

    No relief of any kind, ever.
     
  18. Imagican

    Imagican old dude

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    Fair enough. But having lived for 57 years, (so far), I have YET to meet ONE person who follows as the Bible instructs. Yet to meet ONE person who would meet the criteria I believe pertains to being a 'true Christian'.

    Don't get me wrong. I have met MANY that 'say' they are true followers. But the one's that I have known personally? Not even CLOSE. Every person I have EVER MET lives FOR and BY and IN this world.

    And this isn't 'unrighteous judgment', this is 'judgement according to RIGHTEOUSNESS'.

    In other words, I don't BELIEVE that I have EVER MET a 'true Christian' according to the Bible. I often wonder if there are more than 'two' left...........

    Blessings,

    MEC
     
  19. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +8,928
    Anabaptist
    GOOD !
    (well, it is deeply grievous, true, and sad that what you say here is a very common experience even in 'churches')

    Some day, Yahweh Willing , He may bring to you, or bring you to, a true Christian (or rather EKKLESIA since the world definition of true Christian may be different than what God says in Scripture) .....

    Until then, and for many, (or few), we must rely on Yahweh trusting Him, and trust only Scripture, rely on Scripture for what is truth, for what is right and accurate about how to live, and about who Yahweh Says is true. (see in the Bible WHO Yahweh says is blameless, righteous, forgiven, holy, and walking IN UNION WITH HIM IN JESUS (yes , on earth today there are some (few) true) )

    Without the testimony of the Scripture, few people would have a view of what a true believer is , and is supposed to be, and how to live.
     
  20. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

    +7,310
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    Where in the New Testament does it say that the devil will be destroyed for the rest of eternity?
     
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