Correcting Others. Pope Francis

[BobRyan]

Mary, The Virgin Earth

PS. I don't believe that Mary symbolizes the earth. I only wish to show that it is very easy to confound Mary with the Earth in the minds of a, not fully catechized and well meaning indigenous group.

As you said - syncretism

 

[BobRyan]

Jesuits PROMOTE "Pachamama Day". I am not making this up. Vatican "Earth Mother" coin.

Pope Francis on the Ten Commandments: ‘I observe them, but not as absolutes’

Argentine diocese apologizes for prayer to Pachamama

The Pachamama as a monstrance: Guadalajara, Mexico

yeeeouch!

 

[BobRyan]

... I assume you suppose there is a Catholic tradition of portraying the virgin Mary in the nude. -- I am a bit surprised to hear that they ever had done such a thing.

Here is the article which relates what the woman said.
Paganism at the Vatican? - PrayTellBlog
To my knowledge, the Catholic Church doesn't have strict canonical rules about how Mary and the saints are to be portrayed. Typically, artists portray her according to their own culture and imagination. Amazonian people are themselves often more 'naked' than what we might be comfortable with. So I suppose the statue is a reflection of them.

I presume the idea of approving of a "Nude virgin Mary" image - is not something the Catholic church has ever sanctioned

 

[Lost4words]

I truly think that what was presented at the Vatican has been interpreted in different ways by different people.

I hate to judge the Pope or the church.

If the statue was presented as a representation of Our Blessed Mother then who am i to argue with that?

Its a very difficult subject etc. People see things differently and emotions can rise.

God bless u all.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

As you said - syncretism

Roman Çatholicism has always been syncretistic.
We have 'Christmas Trees' and Michelangelo's Jesus, at the Last Judgement looking like Zeus and the statue of David, looking like Apollo. No one has a problem with those or the fact that cherubs are now cupids. Israel was the same way. No one lives in a vaccum. The question is, are what we are reappropriating from the nations a reflection of truth as God has revealed to them through nature or is it demonic.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I truly think that what was presented at the Vatican has been interpreted in different ways by different people.

I hate to judge the Pope or the church.

If the statue was presented as a representation of Our Blessed Mother then who am i to argue with that?

Its a very difficult subject etc. People see things differently and emotions can rise.

God bless u all.

I agree completely

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I presume the idea of approving of a "Nude virgin Mary" image - is not something the Catholic church has ever sanctioned

She has been depicted breastfeeding. That's as close as I can recall. But Christ has been depicted nude on various occasions

 

[Michie]

I’ll check in later. I have to take my pups to the vet appointment.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

If the Pope who is head of the Church sees it as Mary, it is not our place to assign grave sin to him and the Amazonian woman.

Pachamama is a pagan goddess and always has been. When did the idol magically turn into the Virgin Mary? When the lady in the video presented her as such? It does not work that way. It’s an idol. Trying to twist into something it isn’t is more than disingenuous.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I’ll check in later. I have to take my pups to the vet appointment.

Same. I need to take a break. Bbl.

 

[BobRyan]

Roman Çatholicism has always been syncretistic.
We have 'Christmas Trees' and Michelangelo's Jesus, at the Last Judgement looking like Zeus and the statue of David, looking like Apollo.

True -- but no "nude Mary" that I know of.

No one has a problem with those

A lot of Protestant and Evangelical denominations reject it as not being the correct thing to do.

Israel was the same way. No one lives in a vaccum.

In Exodus - they made a golden calf like the gods of Egypt and claimed "this is the god that brought you out of Egypt" -- so then , real syncretism. And God punished them for it - made them melt it down. A few thousand of them even died.

Ex 32:8 They have quickly turned aside from the way which I commanded them. They have made for themselves a cast metal calf, and have worshiped it and have sacrificed to it and said, ‘This is your god, Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt!’” 9 Then the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, they are an obstinate people. 10 So now leave Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation.”

26 Moses then stood at the gate of the camp, and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me!” And all the sons of Levi gathered together to him. 27 And he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel says: ‘Every man of you put his sword on his thigh, and go back and forth from gate to gate in the camp, and kill every man his brother, and every man his friend, and every man his neighbor.’” 28 So the sons of Levi did as Moses instructed, and about three thousand men of the people fell that day. 29 Then Moses said, “Dedicate yourselves today to the Lord—for every man has been against his son and against his brother—in order that He may bestow a blessing upon you today.”

30 And on the next day Moses said to the people, “You yourselves have committed a great sin; and now I am going up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.” 31 Then Moses returned to the Lord and said, “Oh, this people has committed a great sin, and they have made a god of gold for themselves! 32 But now, if You will forgive their sin, very well; but if not, please wipe me out from Your book which You have written!” 33 However, the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will wipe him out of My book. 34 But go now, lead the people where I told you. Behold, My angel shall go before you; nevertheless on the day when I punish, I will punish them for their sin.” 35 Then the Lord struck the people with a plague, because of what they did with the calf which Aaron had made.

The question is, are what we are reappropriating from the nations a reflection of truth as God has revealed to them through nature or is it demonic.

Well given how poorly it worked out for Israel and given Ex 20:1-5 - my guess is that it should be avoided "like the plague"

 

[Lost4words]

I’ll check in later. I have to take my pups to the vet appointment.

Woof!

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

True -- but no "nude Mary" that I know of.

No. Not until now.

A lot of Protestant and Evangelical denominations reject it as not being the correct thing to do.

I respect that. Personally speaking, I fall in the middle. I prefer canonically drafted icons. I don't gawk at Western Renaissance/modern art, if a church chooses to display such. I just consider it an expression of their faith. But, I would never want a church to display my art. A church did that once as part of their Advent service. I didn't feel good about it and have learned from that event.

In Exodus - they made a golden calf like the gods of Egypt and claimed "this is the god that brought you out of Egypt" -- so then , real syncretism. And God punished them for it - made them melt it down. A few thousand of them even died.

Ex 32:8 They have quickly turned aside from the way which I commanded them. They have made for themselves a cast metal calf, and have worshiped it and have sacrificed to it and said, ‘This is your god, Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt!’” 9 Then the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, they are an obstinate people. 10 So now leave Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation.”

26 Moses then stood at the gate of the camp, and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me!” And all the sons of Levi gathered together to him. 27 And he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel says: ‘Every man of you put his sword on his thigh, and go back and forth from gate to gate in the camp, and kill every man his brother, and every man his friend, and every man his neighbor.’” 28 So the sons of Levi did as Moses instructed, and about three thousand men of the people fell that day. 29 Then Moses said, “Dedicate yourselves today to the Lord—for every man has been against his son and against his brother—in order that He may bestow a blessing upon you today.”

30 And on the next day Moses said to the people, “You yourselves have committed a great sin; and now I am going up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.” 31 Then Moses returned to the Lord and said, “Oh, this people has committed a great sin, and they have made a god of gold for themselves! 32 But now, if You will forgive their sin, very well; but if not, please wipe me out from Your book which You have written!” 33 However, the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will wipe him out of My book. 34 But go now, lead the people where I told you. Behold, My angel shall go before you; nevertheless on the day when I punish, I will punish them for their sin.” 35 Then the Lord struck the people with a plague, because of what they did with the calf which Aaron had made.

Yes. What is different about the case in Rome is that their Moses is saying, 'This isn't a golden calf'. It doesn't seem right to not believe Francis.

Well given how poorly it worked out for Israel and given Ex 20:1-5 - my guess is that it should be avoided "like the plague"

But if Francis confirms the Amazonian woman's interpretation by saying, 'There were no idolatrous intentions', then we ought to believe him. Charity seems to demand it. Even if the Amazonian woman thinks that Our Lady is the same as Mother Earth (in a pantheistic way), the Pope did not receive it as such.[/Quote][/Quote]

 

[BobRyan]

In Exodus - they made a golden calf like the gods of Egypt and claimed "this is the god that brought you out of Egypt" -- so then , real syncretism. And God punished them for it - made them melt it down. A few thousand of them even died.

Yes. What is different about the case in Rome is that their Moses is saying, 'This isn't a golden calf'. It doesn't seem right to not believe Francis.

But if Francis confirms the Amazonian woman's interpretation by saying, 'There were no idolatrous intentions', then we ought to believe him.

Well... that may work for you - but I am going to stick with the Bible on this one. And I am not entirely sure that many Catholics themselves would side with your suggestion of "going with whatever Francis says no matter what you see in front of you" in this case.

Might end up with more "protesting Catholics" as we saw in the case of the "protesting Catholic" named Martin Luther.

Even the Orthodox church is not inclined toward "Go with whatever the Pope says" - to the extent you appear to suggest.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Well... that may work for you - but I am going to stick with the Bible on this one.

I don't think the Bible say that we shouldn't be charitable toward our bishops.

And I am not entirely sure that many Catholics themselves would side with your suggestion of "going with whatever Francis says no matter what you see in front of you" in this case.

Things are not so clear to me as to you.

Might end up with more "protesting Catholics" as we saw in the case of the "protesting Catholic" named Martin Luther.

Maybe. Idk.

 

[BobRyan]

Regarding syncretism

In Exodus - they made a golden calf like the gods of Egypt and claimed "this is the god that brought you out of Egypt" -- so then , real syncretism. And God punished them for it - made them melt it down. A few thousand of them even died.

Ex 32:8 They have quickly turned aside from the way which I commanded them. They have made for themselves a cast metal calf, and have worshiped it and have sacrificed to it and said, ‘This is your god, Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt!’” 9 Then the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, they are an obstinate people. 10 So now leave Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation.”

26 Moses then stood at the gate of the camp, and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me!” And all the sons of Levi gathered together to him. 27 And he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel says: ‘Every man of you put his sword on his thigh, and go back and forth from gate to gate in the camp, and kill every man his brother, and every man his friend, and every man his neighbor.’” 28 So the sons of Levi did as Moses instructed, and about three thousand men of the people fell that day. 29 Then Moses said, “Dedicate yourselves today to the Lord—for every man has been against his son and against his brother—in order that He may bestow a blessing upon you today.”

30 And on the next day Moses said to the people, “You yourselves have committed a great sin; and now I am going up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.” 31 Then Moses returned to the Lord and said, “Oh, this people has committed a great sin, and they have made a god of gold for themselves! 32 But now, if You will forgive their sin, very well; but if not, please wipe me out from Your book which You have written!” 33 However, the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will wipe him out of My book. 34 But go now, lead the people where I told you. Behold, My angel shall go before you; nevertheless on the day when I punish, I will punish them for their sin.” 35 Then the Lord struck the people with a plague, because of what they did with the calf which Aaron had made.

... given how poorly it worked out for Israel and given Ex 20:1-5 - my guess is that it should be avoided "like the plague"

I don't think the Bible say that we shouldn't be charitable toward our bishops.
.

Depends on what they are suggesting as Paul said in Gal 1:6-9 and as Martin Luther noticed.

There is "a limit" according to the Bible - even when it came to the religious leaders of the one true nation-church started by God at Sinai (according to Christ) Mark 7:6-13

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Was it you who said that the Waldensians were present in the 2nd century?

Regarding syncretism

Depends on what they are suggesting as Paul said in Gal 1:6-9 and as Martin Luther noticed.

There is "a limit" according to the Bible - even when it came to the religious leaders of the one true nation-church started by God at Sinai (according to Christ) Mark 7:6-13

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Regarding syncretism





Depends on what they are suggesting as Paul said in Gal 1:6-9 and as Martin Luther noticed.

There is "a limit" according to the Bible - even when it came to the religious leaders of the one true nation-church started by God at Sinai (according to Christ) Mark 7:6-13

This is true. I don't know what Christ will say to Francis at the Judgement. I hope it will be, 'Well done good and faithful servant'. That whatever sins he has accrued in his lifetime will be covered by the atoning blood of Christ.

 

[Lost4words]

Its amazing how much criticism Pope Francis gets online / youtube.

One channel i frequent is by Taylor Marshall and he is always having a dig at him.

I dont want to end up Kneeling before Our Lord and trying to explain being extremely uncharitable to Peter's successor on earth.

Yes, we can question things but, i dont like the cruel attacks the Pope gets. He needs our prayers. As does the whole church.

 

[BobRyan]

Was it you who said that the Waldensians were present in the 2nd century?

Something like that - they go back to the NT church by way of connections to various groups.

Note that the Waldenses were called by several different names: Leonists, Vallenses, Valsenses, Vaudois and others

What does that have to do with the pachamama topic?