Correcting Others. Pope Francis

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Pope Francis speaks about bearing with and loving others through their difficulties.
I really appreciate this.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Pope Francis speaks about bearing with and loving others through their difficulties.
I really appreciate this.

I agree with the pope on this. I don't recommend trying to find flaws in others.

Even here on the forums, whether it be in a debate or in critiquing an OP, I recommend steel-manning, because it helps everyone.

...What he's teaching here is something that's going to be hard for a lot of people to comprehend.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Pope Francis is a very gentle, open man.

In the video, he speaks about proximity. This speaks to me. That Christ involvs himself in our messiness, our blood and bones, our streets and hovels, our sickness and even taking on our death, amazes me! Who else is that close to us as individuals? May we grow everyday by our Lord's grace in imitation of him.

I agree with the pope on this. I don't recommend trying to find flaws in others.

Even here on the forums, whether it be in a debate or in critiquing an OP, I recommend steel-manning, because it helps everyone.

...What he's teaching here is something that's going to be hard for a lot of people to comprehend.

 

[Tigger45]

I don’t always agree with Pope Francis but I do like him.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I don’t always agree with Pope Francis but I do like him.

Same. I was concerned about the supposed Pachamama statue. That really threw me. But I read a couple of days ago, that the statue is really a representation of the Virgin Mary. At least that is what the woman who gave it, indicated. She used the phrase, 'Our Lady of the Amazon'.

I started to question the narrative after the statue was fished out of the river and put back on display. It was hard to believe that even an erring pope would go this far after being told that his gift was an idol. But all I could find at the time was not in his favor. So I just left (I was out the door anyway. I only stayed because of my spiritual mom).

Then, a couple of weeks ago, he stood up boldly for Christ in opposition to Jews who were speaking against the Gospel (trying to make the Law an equal path to salvation). The Pope received a lot of backlash, it was said to him that he was going up against all the progress the Catholic Church had made in this area, but he held strong.

I thought, something doesn't compute. A man who honors idols is not going to fight for Jesus. By happenstance, I found a favorable article while looking for something else.

 

[BobRyan]

Pope Francis speaks about bearing with and loving others through their difficulties.

I too am glad we have this news that he agrees with that Bible doctrine.

 

[BobRyan]

Same. I was concerned about the supposed Pachamama statue. That really threw me. But I read a couple of days ago, that the statue is really a representation of the Virgin Mary. At least that is what the woman who gave it, indicated. She used the phrase, 'Our Lady of the Amazon'.

I started to question the narrative after the statue was fished out of the river and put back on display. It was hard to believe that even an erring pope would go this far after being told that his gift was an idol. But all I could find at the time was not in his favor. So I just left (I was out the door anyway. I only stayed because of my spiritual mom).

Then, a couple of weeks ago, he stood up boldly for Christ in opposition to Jews who were speaking against the Gospel (trying to make the Law an equal path to salvation). The Pope received a lot of backlash, it was said to him that he was going up against all the progress the Catholic Church had made in this area, but he held strong.

I thought, something doesn't compute. A man who honors idols is not going to fight for Jesus. By happenstance, I found a favorable article while looking for something else.

from: Pope Francis apologizes that Amazon synod Pachamama statues were thrown into Tiber River

There the Catholic News Agency says this
================================== begin quote

"Pope Francis apologizes that Amazon synod 'Pachamama' was thrown into Tiber River"

"As bishop of this diocese," Pope Francis, who is Bishop of Rome, said, "I ask forgiveness from those who have been offended by this gesture."

Pope Francis also reported that the statues had been recovered from the river, are not damaged, and are being kept in the offices of the head of Italy's national police.

The statues, which were identical carved images of a naked pregnant Amazonian woman, had been displayed in the Carmelite church of Santa Maria in Traspontina, close to the Vatican, and used in several events, rituals, and expression of spirituality taking place during the Oct. 6-27 Amazonian synod.


The pope said they had been displayed in the church "without idolatrous intentions," according to a transcript provided by the Vatican press office.

The statues were thrown into the river Oct. 21; a video released on YouTube showed two men entering the Church, leaving with the statues, and then throwing them off a nearby bridge."

========================================= end quote

you said

I read a couple of days ago, that the statue is really a representation of the Virgin Mary. At least that is what the woman who gave it, indicated. She used the phrase, 'Our Lady of the Amazon'.

The article says "The statues, which were identical carved images of a naked pregnant Amazonian woman,"

So then I assume you suppose there is a Catholic tradition of portraying the virgin Mary in the nude. -- I am a bit surprised to hear that they ever had done such a thing.

 

[Lost4words]

The Pope is getting a lot of stick these days. From people who misinterpret his words etc. Ok, sometimes he doesnt clarify things but, i always pray for him. He is in the open and in the sights of the devil who wants the church to fail.

God bless and protect Pope Francis and the church.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Here is the article which relates what the woman said.
Paganism at the Vatican? - PrayTellBlog
To my knowledge, the Catholic Church doesn't have strict canonical rules about how Mary and the saints are to be portrayed. Typically, artists portray her according to their own culture and imagination. Amazonian people are themselves often more 'naked' than what we might be comfortable with. So I suppose the statue is a reflection of them.

from: Pope Francis apologizes that Amazon synod Pachamama statues were thrown into Tiber River

There the Catholic News Agency says this
================================== begin quote

"Pope Francis apologizes that Amazon synod 'Pachamama' was thrown into Tiber River"

"As bishop of this diocese," Pope Francis, who is Bishop of Rome, said, "I ask forgiveness from those who have been offended by this gesture."

Pope Francis also reported that the statues had been recovered from the river, are not damaged, and are being kept in the offices of the head of Italy's national police.

The statues, which were identical carved images of a naked pregnant Amazonian woman, had been displayed in the Carmelite church of Santa Maria in Traspontina, close to the Vatican, and used in several events, rituals, and expression of spirituality taking place during the Oct. 6-27 Amazonian synod.


The pope said they had been displayed in the church "without idolatrous intentions," according to a transcript provided by the Vatican press office.

The statues were thrown into the river Oct. 21; a video released on YouTube showed two men entering the Church, leaving with the statues, and then throwing them off a nearby bridge."

========================================= end quote

you said



The article says "The statues, which were identical carved images of a naked pregnant Amazonian woman,"

So then I assume you suppose there is a Catholic tradition of portraying the virgin Mary in the nude. -- I am a bit surprised to hear that they ever had done such a thing.

 

[Michie]

Pachamama is a well known fertility/earth goddess. The idol has nothing to do with Mary as much as people would like to twist it.

 

[Michie]

Jesuits PROMOTE "Pachamama Day". I am not making this up. Vatican "Earth Mother" coin.

Pope Francis on the Ten Commandments: ‘I observe them, but not as absolutes’

Argentine diocese apologizes for prayer to Pachamama

The Pachamama as a monstrance: Guadalajara, Mexico

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Pachamama is a well known fertility/earth goddess. The idol has nothing to do with Mary as much as people would like to twist it.

The woman said that it was Our Lady. That is the exact words she used according to the article. It doesn't matter what anyone else (ala Church Militant or any other news agency) says.

 

[Michie]

The woman said that it was Our Lady. That is the exact words she used according to the article. It doesn't matter what anyone else (ala Church Militant or any other news agency) says.

The lady is wrong.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

The lady is wrong.

How is the Amazonian lady wrong but Fr Z right? I have yet to see a Pachamama statue that looks like the one presented to the Pope. Even if there is one, it would need to be demonstrated that it's not synchronistic. Art is art, without canon law, the imagination and preference of the individual or group is left to it's own devices.
Hence:

 

[Michie]

How is the Amazonian lady wrong but Fr Z right? I have yet to see a Pachamama statue that looks like the one presented to the Pope. Even if there is one, it would need to be demonstrated that it's not synchronistic. Art is art, without canon law, the imagination and preference of the individual or group is left to it's own devices.
Hence:
View attachment 308044

Pachamama is a pagan goddess and always has been. When did the idol magically turn into the Virgin Mary? When the lady in the video presented her as such? It does not work that way. It’s an idol. Trying to twist into something it isn’t is more than disingenuous.

 

[Michie]

Pachamama is a goddess revered by the [URL='https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_people']indigenous peoples of the Andes. In Inca mythology she is an "Earth Mother" type goddess,[1] and a fertility goddess who presides over planting and harvesting, embodies the mountains, and causes earthquakes. She is also an ever-present and independent deity who has her own creative power to sustain life on this earth.[1] Her shrines are hallowed rocks, or the boles of legendary trees, and artists envision her as an adult female bearing harvests of potatoes and coca leaves.[2] The four cosmological Quechua principles – Water, Earth, Sun, and Moon[2] – claim Pachamama as their prime origin. Priests sacrifice offerings of llamas, cuy (guinea pigs), children (The Capacocha Ritual) and elaborate, miniature, burned garments to her.[3]Pachamama is the mother of Inti the sun god, and Mama Killa the moon goddess. Mama Killa is said to be the wife of Inti.
[/URL]


Pachamama - Wikipedia

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Mary, The Virgin Earth

PS. I don't believe that Mary symbolizes the earth. I only wish to show that it is very easy to confound Mary with the Earth in the minds of a, not fully catechized and well meaning indigenous group.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Right. At the most, this is a matter of syncretism for the Amazonians.


Pachamama - Wikipedia[/QUOTE]

 

[BobRyan]

Right. At the most, this is a matter of syncretism for the Amazonians.


Pachamama - Wikipedia

Until they bring it to Rome.

 

[Michie]

Mary, The Virgin Earth

PS. I don't believe that Mary symbolizes the earth. I only wish to show that it is very easy to confound Mary with the Earth in the minds of a, not fully catechized and well meaning indigenous group.

I don’t think anyone blames the indigenous group. It’s the actions of fully catechized clergy that do.