Corporate Election and Ephesians 1

[DingDing]

is God the creator of all things?

what things of God's creation does He not control?

Your answer begs the question. (Assuming you are familiar with logical fallacies.)

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Your answer begs the question. (Assuming you are familiar with logical fallacies.)

....is God the creator of all things?

what part of His creation does He not control?

 

[DingDing]

....is God the creator of all things?

what part of His creation does He not control?

Until then, let me know when you have some real answers.

 

[MDC]

Actually, that is what this discussion is about: how can (or how does) God choose? In Judges 7 God made a choice between two groups (two categories of individuals) and He did so without having to chose persons on an individual basis. This, then, is an example of God picking in a corporate sense. To claim that what happened in Judges 7 is irrelevant is to miss the whole point: God can choose corporately without regard to the individual.




Why? Because God is the One who decides who lives and who dies (eternally). It is not a question of whether or not God chooses, but rather, how He chooses. If God has chosen in such a way as to then put the "ball" in the court of the individual, then the individual had better understand what the heck is going on, and what is required of him.



IF election to salvation is in the individual sense, as calvinists claim, then there is no real impact/responsibility upon the individual: you are either in or out of the election regardless of what you do, and you can't change your situation. But, if election to salvation is corporate, then there is real impact/responsibility upon the individual: you are either in or out of the election based upon what you can chose/do, and you can change your situation.



If corporate election did not exist, then as many false teachers say, live like you want, even live like the devil, for you cannot change your eternal status. You are either in or out, saved or not saved, and your behavior cannot change where you will spend eternity. You are either on one raft heading for the death falls or the other; God will save those on the one, but won't save those on the other, and you can't switch which raft you are on. Just go ahead and enjoy the ride and get what you can as you have opportunity - because in the end, what you do does not matter because God does not consider it.

God declares the end from the beginning".. Your made up notion of "election" corporately is a fallacy. And denies the true meaning behind it. The election of grace according to scripture, is individual selection of certain sinners unto salvation, "not of works BUT OF HIM who calls, that the purpose of God according to election might stand as Romans 9:11 states. I know to the natural mind this truth is not received. And simply because the carnal mind feels as if he's not in control. And is why the carnal fallen nature holds to works salvation and arminian teachings. It's the old heresy of pelegianism! Your rhetorical question of man not being responsible is typical to the fallen nature, in that as Paul states," What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!.. You will say then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will? But indeed, O man, WHO ARE YOU TO REPLY AGAINST GOD?.. Romans 9:14-21. Man is fully responsible for his thoughts and actions. But that doesn't negate the fact God is in control of ALL things

 

[bling]

did God know what choices we were going to make or not and how did He gain this knowledge?

God is outside of time so God of the distant future knows everything and all human free will choices as an historic event, but that God of man’s future is the same God at the beginning of time so God at the beginning of time knows all human free will choices as historic events.

God “knows” all our free will choices in our future from the beginning of human time time because that is what we did in our future. God gained this knowledge about a particular individual at the moment God decided to make that individual.

 

[DingDing]

God declares the end from the beginning".. Your made up notion of "election" corporately is a fallacy. And denies the true meaning behind it. The election of grace according to scripture, is individual selection of certain sinners unto salvation, ...

Here you go, MDC, reading in "individual election" as the method that God must use. So, let's say God has declared "the end from the beginning". What then has He declared? Has He declared individual election, or did He declare a corporate election? So, you see, your statement addresses absolutely nothing. So what has God declared? Has He declared that Tom, Dick, and Harry are saved, while Peter, Paul, and Mary are screwed reprobates? You need to consider that God has declared that those who chose to be united with His son are saved, so that any Peter, Paul, or Mary, may be saved. For someone who tries to come across as someone who thinks he knows so much, you come across as having thought very little about this.

 

[EmSw]

did God know what choices we were going to make or not and how did He gain this knowledge?

Sure He knew, but you didn't. He knows what free choices you will make, yesterday, today, and forever.

He didn't gain any knowledge of what we would do. He knew all things before time began. There wasn't a time He had to gain anything.

 

[MDC]

Here you go, MDC, reading in "individual election" as the method that God must use. So, let's say God has declared "the end from the beginning". What then has He declared? Has He declared individual election, or did He declare a corporate election? So, you see, your statement addresses absolutely nothing. So what has God declared? Has He declared that Tom, Dick, and Harry are saved, while Peter, Paul, and Mary are screwed reprobates? You need to consider that God has declared that those who chose to be united with His son are saved, so that any Peter, Paul, or Mary, may be saved. For someone who tries to come across as someone who thinks he knows so much, you come across as having thought very little about this.

I only show what scripture teaches and shows. So don't come off with your false humility of thinking I'm being arrogant. It's just that you hold to a Pelagius Arminian humanist corruption of what scripture teaches. And is why you are at odds with the truth. Why the promotion of the autonomous "free" will is elevated o over Gods Sovereign will. Gods Word teaches individual election. That is what Gods Word has declared!

 

[DingDing]

Here you go, MDC, reading in "individual election" as the method that God must use. ....

I only show what scripture teaches and shows. ...

MDC, can you prove that God has to work by the individual election scheme claimed by calvinism? That is the whole point of this thread: to get from scripture that God works by the individual election scheme, I claim one must enter scripture with that scheme already firmly in mind. So can you prove what you claim? Read my first post. Ephesians 1 (and the whole letter) does not support the calvinist claim. Please show me how to pull individual election from Ephesians 1 without first bringing that notion into it.

 

[MDC]

MDC, can you prove that God has to work by the individual election scheme claimed by calvinism? That is the whole point of this thread: to get from scripture that God works by the individual election scheme, I claim one must enter scripture with that scheme already firmly in mind. So can you prove what you claim? Read my first post. Ephesians 1 (and the whole letter) does not support the calvinist claim. Please show me how to pull individual election from Ephesians 1 without first bringing that notion into it.

.

MDC, can you prove that God has to work by the individual election scheme claimed by calvinism? That is the whole point of this thread: to get from scripture that God works by the individual election scheme, I claim one must enter scripture with that scheme already firmly in mind. So can you prove what you claim? Read my first post. Ephesians 1 (and the whole letter) does not support the calvinist claim. Please show me how to pull individual election from Ephesians 1 without first bringing that notion into it.

Salvation is definitely by the grace of God as scripture teaches. So therefore salvation is on an individual bases by the election of grace. You have surely not convinced any that it's what you say it is. Your conclusions of what you claim to be how God works, according to election, is empty and without substance. The very scripture you try to use validates individual election. What you call Calvinism, is the truth. And is why you certainly can't refute the clear teaching of Paul in Romans 9. Your response is typical to Gods Sovereignty in the salvation of sinners. Because you hold to a Pelagius arminian view and is why you hate what I'm telling you. As do all who hold to works righteousness and the autonomy of the human will

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Until then, let me know when you have some real answers.

why are you not willing to answer these very simple questions?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

God chooses how He chooses, and this includes choosing what He knows (or what He needs to know). I can't help but realize that you are trying to force/assume your calvinist notion into Judges 7, when there is actually nothing stated which supports your view. God picked a group corporately, and you seem to not be able to acknowledge that.

did God know what actions everyone in that story would take before they took it or not? if yes, how did he gain that knowledge?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Of course God is omniscient. He knows every sin you will commit today and tomorrow. However, who is responsible for choosing to commit those sins? His omniscience does not dictate your free choice.

then it seems that the people who were in this 'group' were already picked by God.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

God is outside of time so God of the distant future knows everything and all human free will choices as an historic event, but that God of man’s future is the same God at the beginning of time so God at the beginning of time knows all human free will choices as historic events.

God “knows” all our free will choices in our future from the beginning of human time time because that is what we did in our future. God gained this knowledge about a particular individual at the moment God decided to make that individual.

....what?

 

[Marvin Knox]

The Bible does not talk about nonbelievers being given to Christ, but believers being given to Christ, so the only question is: “how does a person become a believer”?

To the contrary.

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." John 6:37

One does not become a "believer" until they come to Christ.

The "unbelievers" who the Father chooses to give to Christ (the elect) come to Christ and thus become "believers".

God "elects" or "chooses" unbelievers to become believers by coming to Christ eventually.

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me"

The scriptures are crystal clear that the election of certain unbelievers (while they were yet sinners) is the beginning of the process by which unbelievers become believers.

The scriptures are also crystal clear that the end of the process whereby unbelievers become believers is the drawing to the Son by the Father of all those whom the Father has chosen (by grace) to give to the Son.

Only predisposed bias against the doctrines of grace would lead one to ignore or twist the crystal clear teaching of the scriptures concerning divine election of individuals to eventual salvation through the process of coming to Christ and believing on Him as their hope of salvation.

Some men, in their prideful clinging to the idea that they are somehow independent of God, may not like what the scriptures teach. But they cannot change what the scriptures teach no matter how they twist the truth.

 

[Marvin Knox]

There is nothing at all in Eph 1 that speaks to God foreknowing certain individuals and UNconditionally saving those individuals independent of their own volition and apart from the word of God.

No believer in individual election believes that God saves those elect individuals independent of their own volition and apart from the word of God.

 

[Marvin Knox]

God is outside of time..............

To the contrary.

Don't be ridiculous.

God is omnipresent.

He is immanent as well as transcendent.

All things were created by Him and for Him and in Him all things consist.

"All" those things include those things in time such as you an I and the things you and I relate to in time and space such as the Son of God who lived and died and the gospel we heard and believed.

 

[MDC]

To the contrary.

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." John 6:37

One does not become a "believer" until they come to Christ.

The "unbelievers" who the Father chooses to give to Christ (the elect) come to Christ and thus become "believers".

God "elects" or "chooses" unbelievers to become believers by coming to Christ eventually.

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me"

The scriptures are crystal clear that the election of certain unbelievers (while they were yet sinners) is the beginning of the process by which unbelievers become believers.

The scriptures are also crystal clear that the end of the process whereby unbelievers become believers is the drawing to the Son by the Father of all those whom the Father has chosen (by grace) to give to the Son.

Only predisposed bias against the doctrines of grace would lead one to ignore or twist the crystal clear teaching of the scriptures concerning divine election of individuals to eventual salvation through the process of coming to Christ and believing on Him as their hope of salvation.

Very well said!

 

[DingDing]

Salvation is definitely by the grace of God as scripture teaches. So therefore salvation is on an individual bases by the election of grace.

I agree that salvation is by grace, but that does not mean that individual election must be the case. Corporate election is also an election by grace.

You have surely not convinced any that it's what you say it is.

Do you speak for all? Perhaps there are some who have been reading along who find the corporate argument compelling.

Your conclusions of what you claim to be how God works, according to election, is empty and without substance.

Again, I believe you simply refuse to consider the possibility that corporate election is true.

The very scripture you try to use validates individual election. What you call Calvinism, is the truth. ...

Really? I believe I showed that the wording of Ephesians 1 not only does not demand individual election, but the whole of the Book of Ephesians lends itself more to the notion of corporate election. Please show where Ephesians 1 requires or dictates individual election.

. Because you hold to a Pelagius arminian view and is why you hate what I'm telling you. As do all who hold to ... the autonomy of the human will

I don't hate what you are telling me; I just find it totally without justification. You (like all calvinists) simply read individual election into various places (like Ephesians) without ever stopping to question if there is another way to interpret the passage in question. We all agree on the words in a passage, it is the meaning behind them where we differ. I claim you (like all calvinists) bring the notion of individual election with you and then read it into the text and then claim that text as a proof-text. I'm just trying to get people to sit back for a while and think carefully about what is written.

 

[TheSeabass]

No believer in individual election believes that God saves those elect individuals independent of their own volition and apart from the word of God.

If before the world began God choose "Joe" to be saved, then when Joe enters the world he will be saved no matter what, he has no choice in this matter. Therefore before the world began and GOD CHOOSE Joe....Joe choose nothing for himself. Even after entering this world Joe has no choice in believing or not believing for he was pre-forced to believe.