Corporate Election and Ephesians 1

[TheSeabass]

You are so full of error, it's hard to even read your lies. You are a full blown pelagian. And without hope apart from Gods mercy in Christ.. And what's worse, is that you are absolutely puffed up in your own filth (self righteousness), and shows your complete hatred of the God of scriptures and the gospel of Christ

You make wild unfounded accusations with no proof from the bible to back them. I have love for the word of God, hatred for false teachings as Calvinism.

 

[TheSeabass]

Gods Grace that saves is UNCONDITIONAL. I know the self righteous unregenerate man hates this truth. Gods righteousness is found in Christ Alone for the elect!

No verse says God's grace is received unconditionally (2 Corinthians 6:1). No individual in the NT gospel UNconditionally received grace apart from conditionally believing John 8:24, repenting of sins Luke 13:3 confession Matthew 10:32,33 and being baptized, Mark 16:16. You can never show me an example from the NT gospel of an INDIVIDUAL being saved/elect apart from the GROUP Christian, APART from obeying the will of God. Hence there is no unconditional election of the individual found within the pages of the NT gospel.

 

[EmSw]

then it seems that the people who were in this 'group' were already picked by God.

Deciduous trees 'seem' to be dead in winter. That certainly does not make it true.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Deciduous trees 'seem' to be dead in winter. That certainly does not make it true.

Did God know who the people in this 'group' would be or not? if yes, how and when did he gain this knowledge?

 

[Marvin Knox]

If before the world began God choose "Joe" to be saved, then when Joe enters the world he will be saved no matter what, he has no choice in this matter. Therefore before the world began and GOD CHOOSE Joe....Joe choose nothing for himself. Even after entering this world Joe has no choice in believing or not believing for he was pre-forced to believe.

One hardly knows where to begin with refuting your stream of reasoning.

Your logic is flawed in so many ways.

God works through means to bring about what He has chosen or predestined to take place in time and space.

If God chose Joe to become a believer - He also chose the means by which Joe would come to believe. That means includes both the preaching of the gospel by one or more of His people and the acceptance of the truth of that gospel by Joe himself.

Jesus came to earth to accomplish numerous things according to what the Father chose or predestined to accomplish through Him.

All of these things which Jesus came to do were predestined by God for Him to do according to the scriptures. (Chapter and verse will be provided if you simply must have someone teach you that truth.)

John 6:38, "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."

1. • Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world to call sinners to repentance.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world to seek and save the lost.
   • Jesus came into the world to demonstrate the true purpose of life and give Himself a ransom.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world to be a King and bear witness to the truth.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world to do the Will of His Father.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world to be a Light in the world.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world that men might have the Abundant Life.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world to Judge the world.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world to Proclaim or preach the Good News about the Kingdom of God.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world to die on the cross.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world to fulfil the law.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world to be a Divider of men.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world as a demonstration of God's Love.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world because the Father sent Him.

a. The Father SENT Jesus to be the Propitiation (atonement) for our sins.
b. The Father SENT Jesus and gave Jesus as the Saviour of the world.
c. The Father SENT Jesus to bless us by turning us from our iniquities.
d. The Father SENT His Son to redeem us from the curse of the law.
e. God SENT His Son to make possible a new power in the hearts of men, a power to enable him to fulfill the righteousness of the law.

It was the free choices of Jesus which bought to past the things which God accomplished through Jesus.

To say that that is not true and that Jesus had no choice in the matter is to deny the willing participation of Jesus in the things He accomplished and the overcoming of sin involved with that participation.

The same is true for what God predestined for us in our lives.

"..... He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will," Ephesians 1:4-5

Our translation from the Kingdom of Darkness into the Kingdom of Light and our sanctification in life through our cooperation with the Holy Spirit involves not only the predestination of God before the foundation of the world but the choices we make which play a part in that process.

The predestination of all things which take place in God's creation in no way negates the natural means involved in bringing those things to past.

Your supposed logic is simply flawed from start to finish.

 

[bling]

....what?

You have to be more specific, please.
What is your understanding of God being outside of time and not limited by time?

 

[bling]

To the contrary.

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." John 6:37

That verse says nothing about when believe happens, so where are you finding it in that verse?

Does the person have to first accept and not reject the invitation from God, like Jesus teaches us in parables?

One does not become a "believer" until they come to Christ.

Again where does scripture say that, because hearing is the way scripture tells us people believe?

Ro. 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

The "unbelievers" who the Father chooses to give to Christ (the elect) come to Christ and thus become "believers".

It was why we were yet “sinners” and not prior to believing?

A sinner can for selfish reasons be willing to accept God’s charity while he is still an enemy of God (he surrenders to his enemy God while God is still his enemy, but he trust (faith/believes) the love of his enemy (God) enough to extend some charity to him. This is all like the prodigal son in Luke 15.

Would you please give scripture support for your ideas?

God "elects" or "chooses" unbelievers to become believers by coming to Christ eventually.

God from the beginning of time was going to save those that believed and scripture does not say God would arbitrarily select a group of nonbelievers to believe?

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me"

Are you saying the Father arbitrarily gives a group of nonbelievers to Christ?

What is the selection method used by the Father to select those He gives to Christ?

The scriptures are crystal clear that the election of certain unbelievers (while they were yet sinners) is the beginning of the process by which unbelievers become believers.

Scripture says: hearing is the beginning.

The scriptures are also crystal clear that the end of the process whereby unbelievers become believers is the drawing to the Son by the Father of all those whom the Father has chosen (by grace) to give to the Son.

Only predisposed bias against the doctrines of grace would lead one to ignore or twist the crystal clear teaching of the scriptures concerning divine election of individuals to eventual salvation through the process of coming to Christ and believing on Him as their hope of salvation.

You are right to believe we are discussing a “doctrine of grace”, but it is your doctrine that is contrary to God’s grace since you are teaching God withholds grace from some individuals that are no different than the individuals God extends grace to and God could just as easily extend grace to everyone. While my understanding; has God extending grace in the form of a gracious invitation to everyone in need equally/fairly/justly.

 

[MDC]

You make wild unfounded accusations with no proof from the bible to back them. I have love for the word of God, hatred for false teachings as Calvinism.

If you loved the WORD of God, then you would agree "Calvinism" to be truth. It is Pelagians teachings which you espouse

 

[MDC]

No verse says God's grace is received unconditionally (2 Corinthians 6:1). No individual in the NT gospel UNconditionally received grace apart from conditionally believing John 8:24, repenting of sins Luke 13:3 confession Matthew 10:32,33 and being baptized, Mark 16:16. You can never show me an example from the NT gospel of an INDIVIDUAL being saved/elect apart from the GROUP Christian, APART from obeying the will of God. Hence there is no unconditional election of the individual found within the pages of the NT gospel.

Conditional rt? It's a shame to even respond to this post of a complete denial of Gods gospel of unconditional grace in Christ. The reason you don't see it within scriptures is because you can't, unless perhaps God may open your eyes and grant you repentance to submit at the mercy seat of Christ

 

[Marvin Knox]

God from the beginning of time was going to save those that believed and scripture does not say God would arbitrarily select a group of nonbelievers to believe?....Are you saying the Father arbitrarily gives a group of nonbelievers to Christ?

Nothing God does is "arbitrary".

Who said it was or is?

What is the selection method used by the Father to select those He gives to Christ?

His purpose working according to His good and perfect will.

You are right to believe we are discussing a “doctrine of grace”, but it is your doctrine that is contrary to God’s grace since you are teaching God withholds grace from some individuals that are no different than the individuals God extends grace to and God could just as easily extend grace to everyone. While my understanding; has God extending grace in the form of a gracious invitation to everyone in need equally/fairly/justly.

Do you believe that God extended His grace in equal measure to Caiaphas as He did to Saul of Tarsus or Pharaoh as He did to Lydia?

Everyone wiling to think it through things must realize that God's grace was not equally extended to Muhammad as it was to Simon Peter - nor does it need to be considering that they were both enemies of God - without hope and without God in this world.

Your ideas are based on what you believe would be fair and no on what scripture and the facts of life tell us is true.

 

[TheSeabass]

One hardly knows where to begin with refuting your stream of reasoning.

Your logic is flawed in so many ways.

God works through means to bring about what He has chosen or predestined to take place in time and space.

If God chose Joe to become a believer - He also chose the means by which Joe would come to believe. That means includes both the preaching of the gospel by one or more of His people and the acceptance of the truth of that gospel by Joe himself.

Jesus came to earth to accomplish numerous things according to what the Father chose or predestined to accomplish through Him.

All of these things which Jesus came to do were predestined by God for Him to do according to the scriptures. (Chapter and verse will be provided if you simply must have someone teach you that truth.)

John 6:38, "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me."

1. • Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world to call sinners to repentance.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world to seek and save the lost.
   • Jesus came into the world to demonstrate the true purpose of life and give Himself a ransom.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world to be a King and bear witness to the truth.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world to do the Will of His Father.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world to be a Light in the world.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world that men might have the Abundant Life.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world to Judge the world.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world to Proclaim or preach the Good News about the Kingdom of God.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world to die on the cross.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world to fulfil the law.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world to be a Divider of men.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world as a demonstration of God's Love.
   • Jesus Christ came into the world because the Father sent Him.

a. The Father SENT Jesus to be the Propitiation (atonement) for our sins.
b. The Father SENT Jesus and gave Jesus as the Saviour of the world.
c. The Father SENT Jesus to bless us by turning us from our iniquities.
d. The Father SENT His Son to redeem us from the curse of the law.
e. God SENT His Son to make possible a new power in the hearts of men, a power to enable him to fulfill the righteousness of the law.

It was the free choices of Jesus which bought to past the things which God accomplished through Jesus.

To say that that is not true and that Jesus had no choice in the matter is to deny the willing participation of Jesus in the things He accomplished and the overcoming of sin involved with that participation.

The same is true for what God predestined for us in our lives.

"..... He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will," Ephesians 1:4-5

Our translation from the Kingdom of Darkness into the Kingdom of Light and our sanctification in life through our cooperation with the Holy Spirit involves not only the predestination of God before the foundation of the world but the choices we make which play a part in that process.

The predestination of all things which take place in God's creation in no way negates the natural means involved in bringing those things to past.

Your supposed logic is simply flawed from start to finish.

You fail to produce one verse that says God has UNconditionally predestined certain individual apart from their volition and apart from the word of God.

I asked a request earlier for someone to show one example of any individual that was saved unconditionally, saved apart from the GROUP Christian, APART from his own volition. I see that no one has been able to find just one person. For the bible teaches it is the GROUP that was predestined, it was the GROUP that God foreknew would be in Christ, holy and without blame and be called sons and NEVER any individual unconditionally.

You post "If God chose Joe to become a believer - He also chose the means by which Joe would come to believe. That means includes both the preaching of the gospel by one or more of His people and the acceptance of the truth of that gospel by Joe himself."

--If Joe was predetermined to be saved, then he has no choice in the matter. Predetermined means ALREADY settled, no one can change it, no one has any choice regardless of what God's means is to save. Joe has no choice but do what God has forced upon him.

--from what you post above, Joe's salvation will be dependent on the WORK of other men preaching to him. Can Joe be saved without this WORK being done?

--If Joe has predetermined to be saved, then there is no reason to preach the gospel to him or anyone else. It would change nothing:

Calvinism and the Great Commission
BY WAYNE JACKSON

John Calvin (1509-64) was a religious reformer and theologian. The basic premise of his theology was the absolute sovereignty (right to reign) of God, out of which evolved his misguided theory of “predestination.” The Swiss reformer believed that human “free will” was destroyed by man’s “original sin”; thus, the innate power to yield to the will of God was lost forever.

Nonetheless, Calvin contended that God, by virtue of his sovereign will, predetermined to save some, whom he called the “elect,” but condemn others—the “non-elect.” In his famous work, Institutes of the Christian Religion, the reformer wrote: “No one who wishes to be thought religious dares outright to deny predestination, by which God chooses some for the hope of life, and condemns others to eternal death” (1975, III.xxi).

Later this ideology was incorporated into the Westminster Confession of Faith (1643). Note the following (Article III):

God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass. . . . By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestined unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death (Bettenson 1947, 347).

There are many modern advocates of Calvinism, particularly among the Presbyterians and some Baptists. One of these was James Montgomery Boice, who for more than thirty years preached for the Tenth Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia. In one of his books, Boice relates the following incident in the life of John Gerstner, a professor at the Pittsburgh Theological Seminary. One of Gerstner’s students was R. C. Sproul, now a popular preacher and modern advocate of Calvinism.

Gerstner had been lecturing on the theme of predestination. At the end of class he asked his students this question: “If predestination is true, why should we be involved in evangelism?” One by one the students replied: “I don’t know”; “It beats me”; “I’ve always wondered about that.” Finally the professor came to Sproul. The question was repeated.

After fumbling for words, young Sproul finally answered. Appealing to the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20), he said: “One small point I think we ought to notice here is that God does command us to be involved in evangelism.” Gerstner laughed and conceded that this was the correct response to his question (Boice 1985, 122-23).

That quip, one supposes, was construed to be the solution to the problem of predestination! But, in fact, it answered nothing! It does not even come close to addressing this problem that plagues the dogma of predestination. The Calvinist theory goes something like this:

Humanity, by virtue of its fall in Adam’s “original sin,” lost its ability to make spiritual choices. Accordingly, when one is exposed to the gospel of Christ, no matter how sincere he might be, in his depraved condition he cannot believe it—however hard he may want to, or try.

The sinner is utterly helpless to believe, unless God, by means of a direct operation of the Holy Spirit, opens his heart and empowers him with the “grace” to believe. Upon whom does God decide to pour out this life-changing power? Only those whom he “elected” before the foundation of the world!

These fundamental premises of Calvinism bring us back to the primary question posed earlier. If a person’s salvation was decreed before the foundation of the world, and there is nothing that can be done to alter that, what is the purpose of preaching the gospel to the whole creation when: (a) it would be impossible for the whole creation to believe; (b) the fate of all people already has been “set” (in predetermined theological “concrete” so to speak)?

The fundamental premises of Calvinism may be summed up in this well-known saying of a bygone era:

• Everyone’s salvation or condemnation was determined before time began.
• Therefore, if one seeks redemption, he cannot find it.
• If he finds it, he cannot obtain it.
• If he obtains it, he cannot lose it!

Such is a maze of incomprehensible confusion. It does not take an Aristotle to conclude that this theological system is beyond the sphere of both inspired Scripture and common sense.

The Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16) contains:

• facts to be believed;
• commands to be obeyed;
• promises to be embraced; and,
• a potential destiny to be avoided.

The truth of the matter is, the doctrine of Calvinistic predestination makes void every command of God, offers no hope to the obedient, and nullifies every warning of eternal punishment.

It leaves those who know they are lost with a sense of hopelessness.

It provides no confidence of salvation—for one would have no way of knowing whether he is saved or lost.

It leaves those who believe they are saved with a false sense of security, laboring under the illusion they never can be lost, no matter what they do.

It is thoroughly false and must be renounced by conscientious Bible students.

REFERENCES

• Boice, James Montgomery. 1985. The Christ of the Empty Tomb. Chicago, IL: Moody.
• Bettenson, Henry. 1947. Documents of the Christian Church. New York, NY: Oxford University Press.
• Calvin, John. 1975 ed. Institutes of the Christian Religion. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans

Calvinism and the Great Commission

 

[TheSeabass]

If you loved the WORD of God, then you would agree "Calvinism" to be truth. It is Pelagians teachings which you espouse

The bible is anti-Calvinism. Any theology that puts fault, blame and culpability upon God as does Calvinism should be totally rejected.

 

[TheSeabass]

Conditional rt? It's a shame to even respond to this post of a complete denial of Gods gospel of unconditional grace in Christ. The reason you don't see it within scriptures is because you can't, unless perhaps God may open your eyes and grant you repentance to submit at the mercy seat of Christ

Again, you produce NO VERSE that says man can receive God's grace UNCONDITIONALLY.

 

[bling]

Nothing God does is "arbitrary".

Who said it was or is?

I fully agree that an “arbitrary" selection would be contrary to God’s Loving nature but:

An “arbitrary” selection would be to choose one when both are the same, so are you saying something different?

If you are saying there is a difference between the one selected and the one not selected what is the difference?

His purpose working according to His good and perfect will.

We agree that arbitrary selection is neither “good nor perfect”, but just saying it could not be arbitrary does not show how it is not arbitrary.

The selection method you describe of choosing a few among a group of the same describes and would even define an arbitrary selection method, which is not good and perfect.

Is God’s power and/or Love limited to the number He can select?

Even limiting the number does not negate it being an arbitrary method of selection.

Do you believe that God extended His grace in equal measure to Caiaphas as He did to Saul of Tarsus or Pharaoh as He did to Lydia?

Everyone wiling to think it through things must realize that God's grace was not equally extended to Muhammad as it was to Simon Peter - nor does it need to be considering that they were both enemies of God - without hope and without God in this world.

Your ideas are based on what you believe would be fair and no on what scripture and the facts of life tell us is true.

Yes, I believe God’s judgment is perfectly fair and just and He looks at the hearts of people and what they were given. Paul when he was Saul could have rejected out of a false pride the vision and blindness as heat stroke and sun blindness.

 

[Marvin Knox]

You fail to produce one verse that says God has UNconditionally predestined certain individual apart from their volition and apart from the word of God.

The entire life of Saul the murderer of the brethren stands as testimony against your position.

"'The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth." Acts 22:14

I asked a request earlier for someone to show one example of any individual that was saved unconditionally, saved apart from the GROUP Christian, APART from his own volition. I see that no one has been able to find just one person. For the bible teaches it is the GROUP that was predestined, it was the GROUP that God foreknew would be in Christ, holy and without blame and be called sons and NEVER any individual unconditionally.

That's because your challenge is an impossible task.

It is just a game of words.

Of course no one can show a believer who is not of the group "believers".

However anyone can easily show (and have) that each and every believer was chosen and destined from before the world began to become a member of that group.

-If Joe was predetermined to be saved, then he has no choice in the matter.

Your saying that he has no choice in the matter is like saying that Jesus Christ had no choice in the matter of obeying His Father simply because He was predestined to do so and be rewarded for doing so.

Stating the same supposedly logical charge does not make that charge any the more logical for your saying it over and over again.

Predetermined means ALREADY settled, no one can change it, no one has any choice regardless of what God's means is to save. Joe has no choice but do what God has forced upon him.

Everything that happens in God's creation was predestined to happen.

That is because God "knew" what will happen and there is nothing that one can do to make what God knows will happen not happen.

In that sense you are correct.

The revealed nature of God and His omnipresent and providentially controlling relationship to His creation demands that predestination be true even if the Bible never mentioned it by name.

In Him we live and move and have our being. Every thing has been created by Him, for Him, and in Him all things consist.

You may not like not being independent of God but that does not change the fact of the matter.

Joe has no choice but do what God has forced upon him.

You may use the word force if you insist. but the Word of God does not present it so.

The Bible presents us as being created in the image of God with the ability to choose freely and yet it presents us as having our being in Him.

I've learned to live with those facts.

You, on the other hand, seem to still be kicking against the goads.

--from what you post above, Joe's salvation will be dependent on the WORK of other men preaching to him. Can Joe be saved without this WORK being done?

No - God is bound by His Word wherein He cannot lie.

He has decreed that men will be saved through the preaching of the Word and that's the way it will be.

--If Joe has predetermined to be saved, then there is no reason to preach the gospel to him or anyone else. It would change nothing:

You don't need to obey God and preach the gospel. Your obedience is not required.

God will do it through a donkey if you don't want to participate in what He has prepared for the Church to do.

 

[TheSeabass]

The entire life of Saul the murderer of the brethren stands as testimony against your position.

"'The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth." Acts 22:14

Saul's life was not predestined by God where he had no choice in the matter. God has foreknowledge and God foreknew that if chose Saul that Saul of his own free will would obey God in carrying the gospel to the world. Paul said himself to King Agrippa, in recounting the events of Acts 9 on the raod to Damascus "Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:" Acts 26:19. Saul had the choice to disobey but chose to obey and God foeknew he wold obey therefore there was no need for God to force anything upon Saul.

If Calvinistic predestination were true, then there should be plenty examples of men predetermined to be saved unconditionally apart from the group, apart from the word of God. Obviously it was the GROUP God foreknew and predestined and not the individual. The individual must conditionally be in the group of he wants to be of the foreknown and predestined.

Your saying that he has no choice in the matter is like saying that Jesus Christ had no choice in the matter of obeying His Father simply because He was predestined to do so and be rewarded for doing so.

Stating the same supposedly logical charge does not make that charge any the more logical for your saying it over and over again.

There is no verse I know of that says Jesus had no free will and therefore could not choose to sin. Jesus did have free will, He simply chose NOT to sin.

Everything that happens in God's creation was predestined to happen.

That is because God "knew" what will happen and there is nothing that one can do to make what God knows will happen not happen.

In that sense you are correct.

The revealed nature of God and His omnipresent and providentially controlling relationship to His creation demands that predestination be true even if the Bible never mentioned it by name.

In Him we live and move and have our being. Every thing has been created by Him, for Him, and in Him all things consist.

You may not like not being independent of God but that does not change the fact of the matter.

You post "Everything that happens in God's creation was predestined to happen."

If this were true, then this takes accountability and responsibility and accountability away from man and put it all on GOd for all the evil sinful things that has happened. Of course this is not true. But this is what Calvinism is about--take the responsibiity and accountability God has put on man and throw it all back upon God making man look innocent to an unjust, unfair God.

You may use the word force if you insist. but the Word of God does not present it so.

The Bible presents us as being created in the image of God with the ability to choose freely and yet it presents us as having our being in Him.

I've learned to live with those facts.

You, on the other hand, seem to still be kicking against the goads.

You just posted "Everything that happens in God's creation was predestined to happen."

Therefore Hitler had no choice in what he did, it was forced on him by God. THis is 'force' in eery since of the word.

No - God is bound by His Word wherein He cannot lie.

He has decreed that men will be saved through the preaching of the Word and that's the way it will be.

What you posted, Joe could NOT be saved unless someone did the work of preaching the gospel to him. If Joe was elected Calvinistic style, can Joe still be saved apart from the hearing the gospel? Must someone do the work of preaching Him the gospel?

If God has already predetermined who will be saved and who will be lost, then preaching does nothing. Can preaching the gospel change what God has already predetermined? No, so preaching does nothing, meaningless, useless. According to Calvinism, Joe is born sinful, totally depraved and would not listen to what is preached to him nor could he understand what is preached to him. So then God supposedly has the responsibility to 'regenerate' him so he will be willing to hear and be able to understand and believe what is preached. So no point in preaching the gospel to the world that is depraved and will not hear it nor can understand it. ANd since all men's eternal fate has been set in stone before the world began, preaching can do nothing to change that.

You don't need to obey God and preach the gospel. Your obedience is not required.

God will do it through a donkey if you don't want to participate in what He has prepared for the Church to do.

The bible says the total opposite of this:

Hebrews 5:9 Christ is the author of salvation to all those that obey Him.

No verse says God will FORCE men to obey Him.

 

[Marvin Knox]

There is no verse I know of that says Jesus had no free will and therefore could not choose to sin. Jesus did have free will, He simply chose NOT to sin.

Exactly.

Jesus - although predestined from before the foundation of the world to obey His Father and reap the rewards due such obedience - "chose" freely to obey rather than disobey.

The "predestination" of the man Jesus' choices and the results of those free choices is in no way done away with by the free will of the man. Rather predestination is established by those choices.

This is the clear teaching of Calvinists world wide as stated clearly in the Westminster Confession of Faith.

Chapter 3
I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

"Force" is not involved in bringing to past what God predestined in any way so that it does away with what it means to be human and make human choices.

We are simply human and all that it means to be human includes operating within the decrees of God.

"In Him we live and move and have your being."

Your "opinion" about what the beliefs of Calvinists "amount to" has no bearing on what they believe.

They are perfectly able to say what they believe and have.

You keep making the same illogical charge again and again and it is no more true now than it was in the beginning.

There is nothing left to say on the matter.

 

[sdowney717]

Saul's life was not predestined by God where he had no choice in the matter. God has foreknowledge and God foreknew that if chose Saul that Saul of his own free will would obey God in carrying the gospel to the world. Paul said himself to King Agrippa, in recounting the events of Acts 9 on the raod to Damascus "Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:" Acts 26:19. Saul had the choice to disobey but chose to obey and God foeknew he wold obey therefore there was no need for God to force anything upon Saul.

God separated Paul from his mother's womb that the purposes of God according to election might stand, not according to works but of Him who calls.

Galatians 1:14-16 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)

14 And [you have heard how] I outstripped many of the men of my own generation among the people of my race in [my advancement in study and observance of the laws of] Judaism, so extremely enthusiastic and zealous I was for the traditions of my ancestors.
15 But when He, Who had chosen and set me apart [even] before I was born and had called me by His grace (His undeserved favor and blessing), saw fit and was pleased
16 To reveal (unveil, disclose) His Son within me so that I might proclaim Him among the Gentiles (the non-Jewish world) as the glad tidings (Gospel), immediately I did not confer with flesh and blood [did not consult or counsel with any frail human being or communicate with anyone].

I especially like the wording of
'God saw fit and was pleased to reveal His Son in me'

Is similar to 2 Corinthians 4:6

2 Corinthians 4Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Unbelievers minds are blinded by satan and therefore can not see and understand the Light of the gospel of Christ.
God has chosen to reveal in us his light, but not in these unbelievers whose minds are blinded by Satan.

Whole passage
1 Therefore, since we do hold and engage in this ministry by the mercy of God [granting us favor, benefits, opportunities, and especially salvation], we do not get discouraged (spiritless and despondent with fear) or become faint with weariness and exhaustion.

2 We have renounced disgraceful ways (secret thoughts, feelings, desires and underhandedness, the methods and arts that men hide through shame); we refuse to deal craftily (to practice trickery and cunning) or to adulterate or handle dishonestly the Word of God, but we state the truth openly (clearly and candidly). And so we commend ourselves in the sight and presence of God to every man’s conscience.

3 But even if our Gospel (the glad tidings) also be hidden (obscured and covered up with a veil that hinders the knowledge of God), it is hidden [only] to those who are perishing and obscured [only] to those who are spiritually dying and veiled [only] to those who are lost.

4 For the god of this world has blinded the unbelievers’ minds [that they should not discern the truth], preventing them from seeing the illuminating light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ (the Messiah), Who is the Image and Likeness of God.

5 For what we preach is not ourselves but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves [merely] as your servants (slaves) for Jesus’ sake.

6 For God Who said, Let light shine out of darkness, has shone in our hearts so as [to beam forth] the Light for the illumination of the knowledge of the majesty and glory of God [as it is manifest in the Person and is revealed] in the face of Jesus Christ (the Messiah).

 

[Butch5]

Hello,

I was asked recently to start a thread on the topic of corporate election. The intention here is to explain what corporate election is and how it differs from the common concept of individual election, and why I believe corporate election is a much better ‘fit’ to scripture than individual election.

To me, it was one of those ‘eureka’ moments when I first grasped the concept of corporate election and how it applies to the church. This concept aided my understanding of so many connected topics like faith, salvation, eternal security, and falling away (apostasy). I can only hope this brief explanation will help some others.

I’m going to lay out two simple examples which illustrate the difference between corporate and individual election. I have discussed this topic (and seen it discussed) many times before, and my experience has been that lots of people have never really thought about ‘election’ in this way, and many others simply can’t bring themselves to think this way. And some of the latter refuse to acknowledge that there is any real difference between the two modes of election. (And for those who refuse to acknowledge the difference between corporate and individual election, you can voice your disagreements all you want, and someone might engage your arguments, but I’ll not engage them.)

First, let’s start with a biblical example of corporate election, and then I will try to build a hypothetical example through which I will hopefully illustrate how the wording in places like Ephesians 1 can be understood from a corporate perspective (and how they can be misunderstood by calvinists).

The biblical example is from Judges 7. If you quickly read the first 7 verses, you see how God chose the men who would go with Gideon into battle. Now God could have picked the men by any means – including picking them individually if He had wanted – but the example here is of a corporate choice. God chose a group to go with Gideon. This illustrates the fundamental difference between choosing persons individually, and choosing persons corporately. In this situation, as far as we can tell, God did not make or force any individual to drink one way as opposed to another, but the fact remains that God did choose (in a corporate sense) who would go into battle and who would not. I really hope this real-world, biblical example makes it clear how a corporate election process can work, and how it is distinct and different from an individual election process.

So on to my hypothetical example. Let's say a businessman comes to town and starts a business - like a department store. One of his first needs is employees. Now there are perhaps two ways the owner can fill the positions – he could bring in existing employees or he could hire new people. Let’s go with new hires; so the want-ads go out, and some people respond while others don’t, and of the ones who respond, the owner hires all who accept his terms of employment. Then some time later, while the owner is away, he sends in one of his top managers who comes in and says to an assembly of the employees, “You were chosen by the owner to receive bonuses and gifts, and he chose you for this before this store was even built and before you were ever hired!” In such a setting, no one would ever misconstrue the manager’s words as meaning that the owner had somehow chosen who would be an employee and who would not before the store was ever built, but rather people would rightly understand the manager to be saying that the owner had chosen to give bonuses and gifts to the store employees – whoever they might be – and that the owner had made this choice before the store had been built and before a single employee had been hired.

The reason for this example is that it should be pretty obvious that the manager did not say that the owner chose the individual employees in the far-distant past, but I will now try to point out how the manager’s words could have been misconstrued within the story by some employees (which is what I claim happens with many Christians when they read places like Ephesians 1). Let’s say some of the employees, for whatever reason, already believed (or wanted to believe) that the owner chose them in the far-distant past to be employees – even far before the store was even built. Now when these certain employees heard the words, “…he chose you for this before this store was even built…”, they immediately thought to themselves that the manager is speaking of the owner’s choice of them individually in the far-distant past – in other words, they read into these words their own preconceived notion of how the owner chose them individually in the far-distant past; but let’s be clear, the manager never actually had that meaning in mind.

It is this kind of misconstruing that I claim is going on when many people read passages like Ephesians 1. They read words like the following from verse 4, “…He [the Father] hath chosen us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world…”, and they read into them that God chose individuals in the far-distant past. I claim that people get individual election out of such passages because they come into such passages with that notion already firmly in mind, but the passage itself does not convey, and was not meant to convey, such a notion.

If one reads the Book of Ephesians as a whole, I think one should recognize that perhaps the single, biggest theme is the “mystery” which Paul speaks of in chapters 1, 3, and 5. Here is how he puts it in Ephesians 5:32, “This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.” The mystery of which he speaks concerns Christ and His relationship to the church. Now, for whatever reason, many people read Ephesians 1 and don’t realize that Paul is speaking of this same “mystery” – but they are more than willing to read into that chapter individual election in various places – but Paul never says anything of the sort. So, I believe, to be consistent with his “mystery” topic, when he says things like, “…He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world…”, Paul is not describing or alluding to election of individuals to salvation when he says “us”, but rather he is speaking of the election of the church – the church has been elected and chosen “in Him”. “…He [the Father] hath chosen us [the church] in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world…”

In chapter 5 Paul compares the relationship of Jesus and the church to the relationship between a husband and his wife, so to me, one of the clear implications is that as a husband by relationship shares all he has with all his wife, so too does Jesus share what is His with His bride - the church - and a part of what He shares is His election. Jesus is the Elect One – chosen by the Father as His Elect One before time began. (See Isaiah 42:1 and Luke 9:35.) So I kind of think of it as two figures drawn side-by-side; one is a stick figure of Jesus, the other is an outline of a woman – His bride. The stick figure represents one person - Jesus; the outline figure represents one body – the bride.

So how did a corporate understanding of election help me in other areas? Well, for starters, the various warning on the individual level to remain faithful and persevere make no sense at all if one believes in individual election. The bride is elect and chosen by God; I then make a choice to join the elect body, and I understand the very real consequences for failing to remain in that elect body.

The bottom line (I am trying to end this post here) is that the notion of individual election to salvation that so many believe in is actually read into many texts rather than being drawn from them. If you go in with that line of thought, you may think you see it confirmed in many places, when it is actually not there, and on top of that, you now will have issues with passages which speak of warnings to the individual. It is hard for the individual to be responsible for their standing before God if God is actually the one who decides who stands and who does not. Okay, I’ve opened the door on this subject, hopefully it will prove beneficial to some.

I agree for the most part. You are correct with your argument for corporate election. However, I would submit that verse 4 of Ephesians 1 is not about the church, but rather is a reference to the Jews as a people who were corporately elected.

 

[DingDing]

I agree for the most part. You are correct with your argument for corporate election. However, I would submit that verse 4 of Ephesians 1 is not about the church, but rather is a reference to the Jews as a people who were corporately elected.

And I would totally reject your claim concerning Ephesians 1:4.