Corporate Election and Ephesians 1

DingDing

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Hello,

I was asked recently to start a thread on the topic of corporate election. The intention here is to explain what corporate election is and how it differs from the common concept of individual election, and why I believe corporate election is a much better ‘fit’ to scripture than individual election.

To me, it was one of those ‘eureka’ moments when I first grasped the concept of corporate election and how it applies to the church. This concept aided my understanding of so many connected topics like faith, salvation, eternal security, and falling away (apostasy). I can only hope this brief explanation will help some others.

I’m going to lay out two simple examples which illustrate the difference between corporate and individual election. I have discussed this topic (and seen it discussed) many times before, and my experience has been that lots of people have never really thought about ‘election’ in this way, and many others simply can’t bring themselves to think this way. And some of the latter refuse to acknowledge that there is any real difference between the two modes of election. (And for those who refuse to acknowledge the difference between corporate and individual election, you can voice your disagreements all you want, and someone might engage your arguments, but I’ll not engage them.)

First, let’s start with a biblical example of corporate election, and then I will try to build a hypothetical example through which I will hopefully illustrate how the wording in places like Ephesians 1 can be understood from a corporate perspective (and how they can be misunderstood by calvinists).

The biblical example is from Judges 7. If you quickly read the first 7 verses, you see how God chose the men who would go with Gideon into battle. Now God could have picked the men by any means – including picking them individually if He had wanted – but the example here is of a corporate choice. God chose a group to go with Gideon. This illustrates the fundamental difference between choosing persons individually, and choosing persons corporately. In this situation, as far as we can tell, God did not make or force any individual to drink one way as opposed to another, but the fact remains that God did choose (in a corporate sense) who would go into battle and who would not. I really hope this real-world, biblical example makes it clear how a corporate election process can work, and how it is distinct and different from an individual election process.

So on to my hypothetical example. Let's say a businessman comes to town and starts a business - like a department store. One of his first needs is employees. Now there are perhaps two ways the owner can fill the positions – he could bring in existing employees or he could hire new people. Let’s go with new hires; so the want-ads go out, and some people respond while others don’t, and of the ones who respond, the owner hires all who accept his terms of employment. Then some time later, while the owner is away, he sends in one of his top managers who comes in and says to an assembly of the employees, “You were chosen by the owner to receive bonuses and gifts, and he chose you for this before this store was even built and before you were ever hired!” In such a setting, no one would ever misconstrue the manager’s words as meaning that the owner had somehow chosen who would be an employee and who would not before the store was ever built, but rather people would rightly understand the manager to be saying that the owner had chosen to give bonuses and gifts to the store employees – whoever they might be – and that the owner had made this choice before the store had been built and before a single employee had been hired.

The reason for this example is that it should be pretty obvious that the manager did not say that the owner chose the individual employees in the far-distant past, but I will now try to point out how the manager’s words could have been misconstrued within the story by some employees (which is what I claim happens with many Christians when they read places like Ephesians 1). Let’s say some of the employees, for whatever reason, already believed (or wanted to believe) that the owner chose them in the far-distant past to be employees – even far before the store was even built. Now when these certain employees heard the words, “…he chose you for this before this store was even built…”, they immediately thought to themselves that the manager is speaking of the owner’s choice of them individually in the far-distant past – in other words, they read into these words their own preconceived notion of how the owner chose them individually in the far-distant past; but let’s be clear, the manager never actually had that meaning in mind.

It is this kind of misconstruing that I claim is going on when many people read passages like Ephesians 1. They read words like the following from verse 4, “…He [the Father] hath chosen us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world…”, and they read into them that God chose individuals in the far-distant past. I claim that people get individual election out of such passages because they come into such passages with that notion already firmly in mind, but the passage itself does not convey, and was not meant to convey, such a notion.

If one reads the Book of Ephesians as a whole, I think one should recognize that perhaps the single, biggest theme is the “mystery” which Paul speaks of in chapters 1, 3, and 5. Here is how he puts it in Ephesians 5:32, “This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.” The mystery of which he speaks concerns Christ and His relationship to the church. Now, for whatever reason, many people read Ephesians 1 and don’t realize that Paul is speaking of this same “mystery” – but they are more than willing to read into that chapter individual election in various places – but Paul never says anything of the sort. So, I believe, to be consistent with his “mystery” topic, when he says things like, “…He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world…”, Paul is not describing or alluding to election of individuals to salvation when he says “us”, but rather he is speaking of the election of the church – the church has been elected and chosen “in Him”. “…He [the Father] hath chosen us [the church] in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world…”

In chapter 5 Paul compares the relationship of Jesus and the church to the relationship between a husband and his wife, so to me, one of the clear implications is that as a husband by relationship shares all he has with all his wife, so too does Jesus share what is His with His bride - the church - and a part of what He shares is His election. Jesus is the Elect One – chosen by the Father as His Elect One before time began. (See Isaiah 42:1 and Luke 9:35.) So I kind of think of it as two figures drawn side-by-side; one is a stick figure of Jesus, the other is an outline of a woman – His bride. The stick figure represents one person - Jesus; the outline figure represents one body – the bride.

So how did a corporate understanding of election help me in other areas? Well, for starters, the various warning on the individual level to remain faithful and persevere make no sense at all if one believes in individual election. The bride is elect and chosen by God; I then make a choice to join the elect body, and I understand the very real consequences for failing to remain in that elect body.

The bottom line (I am trying to end this post here) is that the notion of individual election to salvation that so many believe in is actually read into many texts rather than being drawn from them. If you go in with that line of thought, you may think you see it confirmed in many places, when it is actually not there, and on top of that, you now will have issues with passages which speak of warnings to the individual. It is hard for the individual to be responsible for their standing before God if God is actually the one who decides who stands and who does not. Okay, I’ve opened the door on this subject, hopefully it will prove beneficial to some.
 
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DingDing

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can't say the hypothetical example and the passage of ephesians 1 actually match up.

one says predetermined benefits while the other says predetermined position.

You can think of the predetermine benefit of being in Christ, if you like, but I gather you otherwise understood the point I was making.
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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You can think of the predetermine benefit of being in Christ, if you like, but I gather you otherwise understood the point I was making.

I understood it. it simply doesn't match up. ephesians says that people were predetermined to a position that included benefits whereas the hypothetical says people were predetermined to receive benefits from obtaining a certain job.
 
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DingDing

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I understood it. it simply doesn't match up. ephesians says that people were predetermined to a position that included benefits whereas the hypothetical says people were predetermined to receive benefits from obtaining a certain job.

Umm... I think you don't really get the corporate election concept. I've seen your type reaction before. Just like with the election of those to go with Gideon, it is not that God did not chose persons - it is a question of how He chose them. Don't worry, just sit back and give it time; you may eventually get it.
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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Umm... I think you don't really get the corporate election concept. I've seen your type reaction before. Just like with the election of those to go with Gideon, it is not that God did not chose persons - it is a question of how He chose them. Don't worry, just sit back and give it time; you may eventually get it.

I've seen your type reaction too and have heard this all before. maybe i'll get something new from this position eventually.
 
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DeerGlow

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can't say the hypothetical example and the passage of ephesians 1 actually match up.

one says predetermined benefits while the other says predetermined position.
I think Ding means like there is a group called the elect who are chosen to be saved but people believe you can come in and fall out of that group like getting hired and quitting a job. The elect group will be saved but individuals may not always be elect. That's how I've heard it before.
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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I think Ding means like there is a group called the elect who are chosen to be saved but people believe you can come in and fall out of that group like getting hired and quitting a job. The elect group will be saved but individuals may not always be elect. That's how I've heard it before.

the issue I would have with this would be that God doesn't know who the elect are because he didn't elect persons but some non-personal group that could be anybody who ends up making it which would be outside of God's control.

I don't see a biblical basis for that conclusion.
 
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DeerGlow

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the issue I would have with this would be that God doesn't know who the elect are because he didn't elect persons but some non-personal group that could be anybody who ends up making it which would be outside of God's control.

I don't see a biblical basis for that conclusion.

God is still omniscient in any case but yeah I don't really support the group election thing either. That's just what I've heard to clarify the arguments presented.
 
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Greg J.

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The verse that comes to my mind about corporate election is,

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” (Acts 16:31, 1984 NIV)

However, there's the other thousand verses that say or imply each person will be held accountable for their own sins or rewarded for their own good deeds, and the fact that a person can't believe in Christ for someone else.

Corporate election in Scripture to me is a reference to the relationships within a group of people. For example, a family can accept and be comfortable accepting, believing, and obeying everything the father requires. It's easier to imagine if the father in question doesn't talk much and everything that he does say is wise and proves to be correct. A family can acquire a genuine "I just believe and do whatever father says" attitude (for a humble person under a loving father, this brings a huge amount of daily peace). (I hope you see the parallel to us and our heavenly Father.) As a result, the family might be extremely well primed for salvation if the father becomes saved.

But the fact still remains that there are verses like these:

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. (2 Corinthians 5:10, 1984 NIV)

The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. (Ezekiel 18:20, 1984 NIV)

The original post is full of examples of individual selection. One can't select a bunch of individuals and then say they were the group that was selected without regard to the fact they were chosen according to criteria for individuals.

While gifts can be given to groups of individuals without regard to criteria for their individual inclusion, Scripture, human nature, and logic reveal this is not the case for salvation.
 
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bling

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Issues I have addressed with “election of individuals”:

  1. The Calvinists I have spoken with; stops with Eph. 1: 11 yet if we read further for better context we find: 12 we who first hoped in Christ have been destined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. There are things we have done that were not done for us by God: “Hoping and believing”. Everything in Eph. 1: 3-11 is addressing Christians (we/us) and not non-Christians that will become Christians. Those that become Christians have these blessings.

  2. The Bible does not talk about nonbelievers being given to Christ, but believers being given to Christ, so the only question is: “how does a person become a believer”?

  3. The Calvinist will say: “…the ultimate goal of election is the glory and praise of God”, but that means the “election system” of choosing a few for salvation and allowing other to go to hell glorifies God, so everyone is glorifying God no matter what they do? Does the “reprobate” bring “glory” to God by being a reprobate?
I have written a rather long explanation of Romans 9 which is used to support “election to salvation, but it really supports election of those that believe with the bottom line (Rm 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!...) God is totally fair and as just as any being could be with everyone. Paul is for the rest of Romans 9-11 explaining how God is just/fair even when it seems to humans God is not being just/fair.

Rm 11: 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The bottom line is it does not matter if you were born Jew or Gentile they both sinned big time and both were judged by their heart condition. We do know there was a “law” written on the hearts of the Gentiles, but the OT scripture is only addressing the Jews with little glimpses of Gentiles (like Nineveh).

As far as Romans 9 this is what I have written as an introduction before:

Verses are pulled out of Romans 9 to support the idea God makes people a particular way so He will save them and makes others a particular way so they will be eternally lost. That is not what is being conveyed by these particular verses.

To best interpret any verse good hermeneutics would have you first understand the context, context, context and context. Who is writing, to whom is he writing, why, where, when is he writing. The questions for Romans 9 would include:

1. Was there a time when Jewish Christians (elect) taught that a good Christian also had to be a good Jew (following especially the dietary requirements, Sabbath and circumcision)?

2. Was there at the same time these Jewish Christians teaching you a good Jew, Christians (elect) teaching you did not have to follow the old Jewish Laws (esp. Sabbath, circumcision, and food)?

3. Was this a significant issue in the first century church, did Paul address this problem in his letters, and when did this problem cease to be a problem?

4. Could there have been and were there Jewish Christians (elect) in Rome at the time of Romans teaching other Gentile Christians (elect) they had to (be circumcised, obey the Sabbath, and/or fool the Old Jewish dietary requirements)?

5. Was Paul’s letter to the Romans written to non-Christians and/or to some non-Christians (non-elect) or to both elect Jew and Gentile Christians?

Paul uses two teaching methods that are taught in secular philosophy classes and are used even in secular classes as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) giving support for the wrong answer before or after asking a logical questions and giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main question in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!

This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born. Again this is typical of all diatribes.

Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau?

Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?

If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?

That is what is at issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.

Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual and this “letter” is being written to non-Christians?

Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?

Is it really significant in what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in the first century in Rome?

Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?

The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison.

How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.

We could get into a long discussion of “ honorable and dishonorable vessels” which some equate the dishonorable as being like “clay pigeons” made for destruction, but that is not the best translation of these words. Paul uses the same words conveying the same idea in 2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

In Tim. Paul talks about these same “dishonorable vessels” in a rich person’s house (definitely not clay pigeons) and these dishonorable vessels (common vessels) can be made “holy” (which fits the Gentiles being made holy).

Those that will be destroyed come from both the common and special vessels that fail to meet their objective.

Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.

If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

This section is mainly for the Gentiles Christians, but the Jewish Christians also needed to hear it.

How could there be a choice and yet not have any conditions to the choice, unless you are saying God is arbitrary in making His choice and randomly selects a “group” of people? Is being arbitrary fair?


Is it fair for the father to mercifully choose to “save” some of His children when the father could just as easily save all His children?


Eph. 2: 8 is also often miss translated.

Did Jesus say there were people He did not Love?

Who did Jesus say we were not to Love and if we are to “Love” everyone as Christ Loved everyone is our Love to be greater than God’s?

If God does not Love everyone, then could His Love be even greater if He could Love everyone?

If you address the question correctly you will know if God could keep from “Loving” everyone:

If you Love “unconditionally” there would be no “choice” in of whom you Love (invited)?


How could there be a choice and yet not have any conditions to the choice, unless you are saying God is arbitrary in making His choice and randomly selects a “group” of people?


Is being arbitrary fair?


Is it fair for the father to mercifully choose to “save” some of His children when the father could just as easily save all His children?

It would not be “loving” on God’s part nor would Love be exchanged if God forced man to accept His charity (Love). That is like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun. Loving is doing all you can, short of coercion, to get people to just humbly accept your help, if they accept your Love as it was given (as the pure charity it is.) they will Love.
 
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DingDing

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the issue I would have with this would be that God doesn't know who the elect are because he didn't elect persons but some non-personal group that could be anybody who ends up making it which would be outside of God's control.

I don't see a biblical basis for that conclusion.

So, are you saying that God was not "in control" when He chose who would go with Gideon?
 
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St_Worm2

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Hi DingDing, thanks for getting this thread going. I'll try to get back to comment a little later tonight or tomorrow after I've considered all you've said in the OP.

For now though, I do have one question. What difference does "corporate election" make? What does this kind of election mean to those who are saved, (an to those who are not)?

IOW, if God chooses to save individuals on the basis of their choice to believe in Him first, what difference does "election" make, corporate or otherwise, in the lives of these people?

Thanks!

--David
 
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DingDing

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Hi DingDing, thanks for getting this thread going. I'll try to get back to comment a little later tonight or tomorrow after I've considered all you've said in the OP.

For now though, I do have one question. What difference does "corporate election" make? ...

Thanks!

--David

Hello,

I would ask you to consider how God chose in Judges 7. So how did He choose? Did He pick 300 persons individually, or did He pick a group (which happened number 300) corporately? This really is a big deal. God's choice was based upon what people could (or did) do. (And was He out of control by doing so?) So that opens up the door to the possibility that His choice of those He will save is based entirely upon what they do (or can do). There is nothing in the Book of Ephesians which speaks of individual election to salvation, but rather, the "mystery" of which Paul speaks in chapter 1, 3, and 5 in Ephesians is between Jesus and His bride - which is a corporate body. I suggest that the difference between individual election and corporate election is huge. The reason calvinists won't see it, or don't see it, is because for them to do so would mean that calvinism is totally wrong. (I'm sorry, but I've been around this discussion too many times... and I have never, and I mean never, had a calvinist acknowledge that corporate election is a real option - it always gets discounted one way or another.)
 
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St_Worm2

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Hi DD, the passage from Judges 7 is hardly comparable to Divine Election, in scope or purpose. That's for another discussion however. For now, I would still be interested in knowing the answer to my question(s).

The Bible certainly makes a big deal of out God's "choosing", "electing", "predestining", "appointing", etc. from cover to cover. Why?

What is the purpose of election (as you see it), and what purpose/role do you believe "corporate election" plays in the lives of the individuals who are "elect" (as well, those who are not)? What difference does it make to the members of either group?

Maybe it would also help to look at this from a different POV. Assuming your soteriological schema is the correct one, how would the lives of the saints (and/or the reprobates) be affected if corporate election was taken off the table completely, IOW, if it didn't exist?

Thanks!

--David
 
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AJTruth

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Hello,

I was asked recently to start a thread on the topic of corporate election. The intention here is to explain what corporate election is and how it differs from the common concept of individual election, and why I believe corporate election is a much better ‘fit’ to scripture than individual election.

To me, it was one of those ‘eureka’ moments when I first grasped the concept of corporate election and how it applies to the church. This concept aided my understanding of so many connected topics like faith, salvation, eternal security, and falling away (apostasy). I can only hope this brief explanation will help some others.

I’m going to lay out two simple examples which illustrate the difference between corporate and individual election. I have discussed this topic (and seen it discussed) many times before, and my experience has been that lots of people have never really thought about ‘election’ in this way, and many others simply can’t bring themselves to think this way. And some of the latter refuse to acknowledge that there is any real difference between the two modes of election. (And for those who refuse to acknowledge the difference between corporate and individual election, you can voice your disagreements all you want, and someone might engage your arguments, but I’ll not engage them.)

First, let’s start with a biblical example of corporate election, and then I will try to build a hypothetical example through which I will hopefully illustrate how the wording in places like Ephesians 1 can be understood from a corporate perspective.

The biblical example is from Judges 7. If you quickly read the first 7 verses, you see how God chose the men who would go with Gideon into battle. Now God could have picked the men by any means – including picking them individually if He had wanted – but the example here is of a corporate choice. God chose a group to go with Gideon. This illustrates the fundamental difference between choosing persons individually, and choosing persons corporately. In this situation, as far as we can tell, God did not make or force any individual to drink one way as opposed to another, but the fact remains that God did choose (in a corporate sense) who would go into battle and who would not. I really hope this real-world, biblical example makes it clear how a corporate election process can work, and how it is distinct and different from an individual election process.

So on to my hypothetical example. Let's say a businessman comes to town and starts a business - like a department store. One of his first needs is employees. Now there are perhaps two ways the owner can fill the positions – he could bring in existing employees or he could hire new people. Let’s go with new hires; so the want-ads go out, and some people respond while others don’t, and of the ones who respond, the owner hires all who accept his terms of employment. Then some time later, while the owner is away, he sends in one of his top managers who comes in and says to an assembly of the employees, “You were chosen by the owner to receive bonuses and gifts, and he chose you for this before this store was even built and before you were ever hired!” In such a setting, no one would ever misconstrue the manager’s words as meaning that the owner had somehow chosen who would be an employee and who would not before the store was ever built, but rather people would rightly understand the manager to be saying that the owner had chosen to give bonuses and gifts to the store employees – whoever they might be – and that the owner had made this choice before the store had been built and before a single employee had been hired.

The reason for this example is that it should be pretty obvious that the manager did not say that the owner chose the individual employees in the far-distant past, but I will now try to point out how the manager’s words could have been misconstrued within the story by some employees (which is what I claim happens with many Christians when they read places like Ephesians 1). Let’s say some of the employees, for whatever reason, already believed (or wanted to believe) that the owner chose them in the far-distant past to be employees – even far before the store was even built. Now when these certain employees heard the words, “…he chose you for this before this store was even built…”, they immediately thought to themselves that the manager is speaking of the owner’s choice of them individually in the far-distant past – in other words, they read into these words their own preconceived notion of how the owner chose them individually in the far-distant past; but let’s be clear, the manager never actually had that meaning in mind.

It is this kind of misconstruing that I claim is going on when many people read passages like Ephesians 1. They read words like the following from verse 4, “…He [the Father] hath chosen us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world…”, and they read into them that God chose individuals in the far-distant past. I claim that people get individual election out of such passages because they come into such passages with that notion already firmly in mind, but the passage itself does not convey, and was not meant to convey, such a notion.

If one reads the Book of Ephesians as a whole, I think one should recognize that perhaps the single, biggest theme is the “mystery” which Paul speaks of in chapters 1, 3, and 5. Here is how he puts it in Ephesians 5:32, “This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.” The mystery of which he speaks concerns Christ and His relationship to the church. Now, for whatever reason, many people read Ephesians 1 and don’t realize that Paul is speaking of this same “mystery” – but they are more than willing to read into that chapter individual election in various places – but Paul never says anything of the sort. So, I believe, to be consistent with his “mystery” topic, when he says things like, “…He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world…”, Paul is not describing or alluding to election of individuals to salvation when he says “us”, but rather he is speaking of the election of the church – the church has been elected and chosen “in Him”. “…He [the Father] hath chosen us [the church] in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world…”

In chapter 5 Paul compares the relationship of Jesus and the church to the relationship between a husband and his wife, so to me, one of the clear implications is that as a husband by relationship shares all he has with all his wife, so too does Jesus share what is His with His bride - the church - and a part of what He shares is His election. Jesus is the Elect One – chosen by the Father as His Elect One before time began. (See Isaiah 42:1 and Luke 9:35.) So I kind of think of it as two figures drawn side-by-side; one is a stick figure of Jesus, the other is an outline of a woman – His bride. The stick figure represents one person - Jesus; the outline figure represents one body – the bride.

So how did a corporate understanding of election help me in other areas? Well, for starters, the various warning on the individual level to remain faithful and persevere make no sense at all if one believes in individual election. The bride is elect and chosen by God; I then make a choice to join the elect body, and I understand the very real consequences for failing to remain in that elect body.

The bottom line (I am trying to end this post here) is that the notion of individual election to salvation that so many believe in is actually read into many texts rather than being drawn from them. If you go in with that line of thought, you may think you see it confirmed in many places, when it is actually not there, and on top of that, you now will have issues with passages which speak of warnings to the individual. It is hard for the individual to be responsible for their standing before God if God is actually the one who decides who stands and who does not. Okay, I’ve opened the door on this subject, hopefully it will prove beneficial to some.

Read to whom these scriptures are written.

The implication these scriptures are written to, & apply to, everyone, is false.

Each one of these scriptures are written to & apply to BELIEVERS only.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

"""to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus""""
(EPHESIANS WRITTEN TO THE FAITHFUL SAINTS)

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, """"to the saints which are at Ephesus""", and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
(^Written to BELIEVERS at Ephesus & other BELIEVERS^)

EPHESIANS:
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
( ^ WRITTEN TO & APPLIES TO BELIEVERS ONLY^)

Rom 1: 6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
(SAINTS IN ROME)

Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, """called to be saints"""": Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(^Written to BELIEVERS in Rome^)

Romans 8:28-30 - And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
(^^^ WRITTEN TO & APPLIES TO BELIEVERS ONLY^^^)

ROMANS:
Romans 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(^^^ WRITTEN TO & APPLIES TO BELIEVERS ONLY^^^)

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and """"sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ""": Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
(Written to those sprinkled in the blood of Jesus Christ BELIEVERS!)

1 Peter 1:20 - Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
(APPLIES ONLY TO THOSE REDEEMED BY THE BLOOD. AGAIN BELIEVERS ONLY)

John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(EVERYBODY WILL BE RAISED ON THE LAST DAY. BELIEVERS TO ETERNAL LIFE, UNBELEVERS TO ETERNAL SEPERATION)

TIMOTHY:
2 Timothy 1:To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Written to Timothy a BELIEVER)

2 Timothy 1:9 - Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
(Written to Timothy a BELIEVER)

John 15:16 - Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
(JESUS IS ALONE WITH, AND ONLY SPEAKING TO, HIS TWELVE CHOSEN!!!)

Ephesians 1:11-12 - In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
(^^^ WRITTEN TO & APPLIES TO BELIEVERS ONLY^^^)

Acts 13:48 - And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
(WHO WERE THE MANY ORDAINED??? BELIEVERS!!!!)
 
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AJTruth

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You can think of the predetermine benefit of being in Christ, if you like, but I gather you otherwise understood the point I was making.

Predestined = A PLAN with a PATH

Romans 8:29
For those ""God foreknew"" he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

This notion of your future is at birth already decided is FALSE. Does God already know what all will choose. YES HE DOES. He knows because He has already seen the future. However, every individual must choose for themselves.

God predestined a "PATH" with the "PLAN" of salvation before creation & time began.

The "PATH & PLAN" are predestined by one choosing to place their faith in GOD'S PRE-PLANNED PATH.

Genesis 24:58 And they called Rebekah, and said unto her, Wilt thou go with this man? And she said, I will go.
(SHE HAD A CHOICE & CHOSE)

John 3:16, Romans 10:13 & Acts 2:21 All proclaim:

WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved
(The "PATH" & "PLAN" are predestined. The choice is made by the individual No one is born saved. And the Faith choice of salvation is NEVER forced)

It's not before birth that justification & salvation happen.

It's happens at the point of placing ones faith in the: Sin Atoning Death, Burial & Resurrection Of the Lord Jesus Christ.
A PERSONAL CHOICE. AGAIN, NEVER FORCED!

If people are predestined to be saved. What is the point of the Lords suffering on the cross?

Same question for the Law Keeping doctrine pundits. If salvation comes thru your great works. What is the point of the Lords suffering on the cross?

Three scripture's for the Law Lovers trapped in OT Law doctrine:

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
(IF YOU'RE TRYING TO ACHIEVE SALVATION BY YOUR OWN WORKS IN LAW KEEPING. YOU HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE!)

Salvation is a faith choice: You're not born with it & you can't earn it.

Ephesians 2:
8 "By grace" are ye saved" ""through faith" "not of yourselves" it is the "gift" of God
(THROUGH FAITH: NOT AT OR BEFORE BIRTH!)

9 "Not of works" "lest any man should boast"

The Predestined "Plan & Path" is found in: The Gospel Jesus Christ!

Who ever will CHOOSE to: Place their Faith in the: Sin Atoning Death, Burial & Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. Maranatha
 
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AJTruth

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Umm... I think you don't really get the corporate election concept. I've seen your type reaction before. Just like with the election of those to go with Gideon, it is not that God did not chose persons - it is a question of how He chose them. Don't worry, just sit back and give it time; you may eventually get it.

Calvin's failure:


Calvin maintains that God limits Christ's atonement.

Calvin say's; God place's on Christ, "only", the sins of those, whom, God himself has chosen for salvation.

The real question is: Who places limits on Christ's atonement, God or man?

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also """for the sins of the whole world""".

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, """which taketh away the sin of the world""".

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give """for the life of the world""".

1 Timothy 2:6 Who """gave himself a ransom for all""", to be testified in due time.

The most common is that, if God is all-loving, how could Christ not die for everyone? Doesn’t God love each and every person.

THESE VERSES SHOW HE LOVES """ALL"""

1 John 2:2 """for the sins of the whole world""", John 1:29 """which taketh away the sin of the world""", John 6:51 """for the life of the world""", 1 Timothy 2:6 Who """gave himself a ransom for all"""

These 4 verses show Christ's death paid for EVERY sin & His payment includes EVERY person """ALL""".

But it doesn't do ANYONE any good """""until they appropriate Christ's sin atoning redemptive sacrifice by faith/belief"""".

THESE VERSES SHOW ITS ONLY OUR CHOICE THAT LIMITS ATONEMENT

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Believers Have Eternal Life
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son "hath" everlasting life & he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
(WHOEVER BELIEVES ON JESUS """HAS""" PRESENT TENSE ETERNAL LIFE)

Unbelievers Are Condemned
John 3:18 But he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(Unbelievers in the son ARE ALREADY & WILL be condemned)

EVERYONE HAS A CHOICE:
"BELIEVE" on the "SON" & you """HAVE""" Eternal Life!

Or "don't Believe & face the wrath of God"

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(NOTE: ""ETERNAL LIFE"" & """THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH""". NOT UNTIL THE NEXT TIME YOU MAKE A MISTAKE)

John 11:26 Jesus said; whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
(WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN JESUS. SHALL NEVER DIE)

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UOPN THE NAME OF JESUS. SHALL BE SAVED)

Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN JESUS. SHALL NOT BE ASHAMED)

1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
(WHOSOEVER SHALL CONFESS JESUS. WILL RECEIVE GOD"S HOLY SPIRIT WITHIN)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The only limit on ones salvation is:

Choice (A) Receive God's grace & place your FAITH in the Sin Atoning Sacrifice found in the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus the Christ

Choice (B) Reject God's grace remain in unbelief. The only unforgivable sin, I.E. blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is UNBELIEF!

A favorite Calvinist scripture:
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
(Here Christ is alive & has yet to fulfil the laws required payment for sin)

News Alert Christ has made the payment: Note """ALL""" in the verse. Will be drawn:
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, """will draw all men unto me""".
(The call to salvation is extended to everyone. But, salvation comes only to those who are willing to believe.)


(A sinless Christ, 1 Pet 2:22, 2 Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, 1 Jn 3:5 1 Pet 1:19. Didn't pay for his own sins, HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY.

Christ died and paid for the sins of every believer. That ""chooses"" to accept God's grace & place's their FAITH in the Sin Atoning Sacrifice found in Christ's Death, Burial and Resurrection.

SORRY TULIPS!

You can see how to choose today. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 &/or Romans 10:8-13. Maranatha
 
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