Corporal Punishment

[SearcherKris]

I agree that such punishments may be appropriate for children with severe learning disabilities, or children who were forced to live with parents who ruined them beyong a point where they can not longer function without such punishment.

Actually the opposite is true. Spanking is usually only beneficial to children who have no mental health disability and have not been abused.

Children with mental health issues need behavior modification and need to learn practical ways of functioning as a healthy person of their same age. They are incapapble of processing information the same way as a child with a normally function brain is. For most of them, spanking is not beneficial to them and does not change the undesired behaviors.

For children who have been abused they can take either one extreme response or another. They either become supre hyper sensitive or they become so tough and emotionally hardened that spanking is either tramatic or like nothing.

You have to consider the child's perception. Some who are incredibly sensitve may actually be emotionally traumatized by being spanked, and maybe can't even handle being yelled at or scolded. In this case, spanking would be wrong because it is furthering the emotional damage to the child, even if that is not the intent of the adult.

For the kid who is tough, they've been through it! They've have actually been beaten. They've had it worse, and know they survived. They may have emotional problems that have prompted them to become determined to not let it get to them, not let it matter. They will just take it, and not give it another thought...no behavior change. You have to find another way to get to through to these kids, and it usually involved tons of love and acceptance, LOTS of talking, demonstration and positive reinforcement.

 

[SearcherKris]

For me personally, I have been abused physically, emotionally, and sexually while I was growing up. I was abused in my marriage for 9 years. I have been sexually assaulted by more than one person at different points in my life, one incident just happening earlier this summer...at a Christian camp, no less.

I have also been spanked in an appropriate way by a safe people who did not harm me by doing so. They were effective in changing the behavior, did not arouse me, and I was not afraid of those people after the fact.

There is a VAST difference between appropriate spanking of a child and abuse and sexual assault.

None of the spankings I received as a child were on my bare bottom. My siblings and cousins were all spanked, it was a very open topic, and I had never heard of spanking a bare bottom until I was probably 9 or 10 years old. I thought it was odd, and I only knew of that one family who did it until after I became an adult. I still think it is rather rare, at least where I live it is.

I don't think spanking children is OK for just anyone to do. I also don't think spanking is good for every child. Some people are not able to spank without going to far and some children will not benefit from it. I think careful consideration has to be made regarding which child it is and who is doing the spanking. I also don't think that just any person in a child's life should spank them even if they are not harmful people.

Only people who know the child well, love the child, and the feels safe with should do so. In this I would include non-abusive parents, grandparents, or other close family member. I would also incude professionals who could be held accountable and have a witness like teachers and principals.

I would NOT include childcare workers in a daycare setting or a babysitter. The reason for this is because (at least in Texas) the only requirements for childcare workers is that they have a diploma or GED and not have a criminal history. This means almost anyone can be a childcare worker, and you don't want just anyone spanking kids.

 

[SearcherKris]

S
What do any of these things have to do with spanking? Nothing and everything. NEVER, will you fully understand what it is to bring another human being into this cruel world who is so innocent and so perfect and so vulnerable; who is depending on YOU for his/her survival. Who loves you unconditionally. It is the greatest and scariest moment of your life.

To sit and spew that text book junk shows exactly what you don't know.

AMEN!

Y'all I helped raise my sister who was 13 years younger than me. I took care of her so much that she felt abandoned when I left home and got married, and although it is 12 years later, she still tells me that I left her.

I started babysitting when I was 13 and continue until this day...not to mention years spent working in daycare and studying child development. I have played a huge role in potty training a large number of children through my work. I have spoon fed and bottle fed and burped so many babies, there is no counting them. I don't know how many times I have sang, "Jesus Loves Me."

My point is I had tons of personal experience both through my work, my family, and my church, with lots of children and their families on a daily basis for years.

When I became pregnant the first time I thought I knew it all. I thought I was ready and could handle it. I was not the least bit nervous about becomming a mother...

...then the little critter born! OH MY GOODNESS!!

I'm telling you, it's a whole different world out their when the child is your own.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

...and think that humans should interact on a higher form of communication that primal instincts.

Have you ever tried these 'higher forms of communication' with a two-year-old who is quickly learning the joys of pushing mommy and daddy's buttons?

 

[Mling]

Have you ever tried these 'higher forms of communication' with a two-year-old who is quickly learning the joys of pushing mommy and daddy's buttons?

It's not necessarily communicating on a higher level with the child, but of using higher forms of reasoning *yourself,* with regards to how you think of your child, and using that to find better ways of interacting with your kid.

It's easy to hit your kid for doing bad--but temptation grows over time, and fear fades over time, so it inevitably fails.

Swat your kid's hand for reaching for cake, and he'll pull his hand back and maybe leave, afraid of being slapped again. But tomorrow, his hand won't hurt anymore, so he'll be less afraid--but he'll be just as tempted by the cake.

Replace the cake with anything you want...replace the slap with anything you want, it all stays the same. The longer ago a painful, scary event took place, the less you'll be afraid by it. But there's a good chance you still want a lot of the same things as you did then.

Making the kid actively turn *towards* something--actively *want* to do good--is the only way to produce lasting results.

To go back to the simple example of a kid throwing a tantrum in a store, almost no parents would spank their children in public, so the moment the kid figures that out, they have the ultimate advantage. If their reason for behaving not-badly is because they'll get spanked if they're bad, then they have nothing to fear in public! Woohooo!!!!

A kid who actively wants to be *good* is much more likely to behave well in any situation. Not *every* situation, all the time, of course, but their behavior isn't going to suddenly collapse as soon as they realize they have nothing to fear.

I'll tell you, as a teacher's aide, I have yet to see a trouble-making kid who was treated gently, and with a sense of proactive guidance, at home. A short chat will usually reveal a childhood of belts. And guess what! Teacher's can't hit them!!! WOOHOOO!!!! PARTY TIME!!

 

[lawtonfogle]

You cannot reason with a small child to make them behave. I'm all for positive reinforcement, but I am also for corporal punishment with limits. Never spank a child out of anger.

Also, to let you know where I am coming from, I was both physically and mentally abused growing up, and even I can see the benefits of a good spanking.

If a child is reaching for the stove, pop the hand away if they will not listen to don't. Don't attack their butt after the fact.

 

[lawtonfogle]

Here are two studies:

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/CP51R6.pdf That one was a longitudinal study (followed a group of kids over a period of several years) that found that the more kids were exposed to corporal punishment, the more their cognitive abilities fell behind, relative to kids who were not hit.

Spanking Research Analysis

That one is a meta-analysis of 88 different studies, finding that "Spanking was strongly linked with immediate compliance, but also with 10 negative behaviors such as aggression, antisocial behavior and abuse of children and spouses in adulthood"

If you're actually interested, there is *tons* of research on this. People have been studying it since at least the 40's, in a scientific way, and from what I've seen, the results range from "Spanking does varying types of harm" to "Spanking doesn't really do *that* much harm." I've never seen any type of study that concluded that it was beneficial overall, or had any type of benefit other than "immediate compliance."

As to the first study, was behavior accounted for? If it was not, the kids more likely to misbehave were spanked more, but it may have been the inclination to misbehave, not the spankings, which ended up hurting them. In other words, did they account for nature in that study?

 

[lawtonfogle]

The youngest children should not be spanked because they have no conception or right or wrong. Would you spank a new born who wouldn't cry? No. Once they gain the ability to tell cause and effect, quick pops on the wrist to stop dangerous behavior (such as touching the stove, sticking something in the outlet) is appropriate if just the stern no does not work. As they gain reasoning skills, I have yet to find an effective way to control them. Around 8ish, psychological warfare works wonders. Give them a very big reward they must work for, and can only get sometimes. Currently I use my huge collection of DS games for my two 8 year old brothers. Whom ever is best gets it, at a frequency of about once or twice a week, and they can play for a 2-3 hours when they do earn it.

For those older, or those who do not completely cooperate, I don't know yet. These are just the methods I fully know work from use.

Speaking from personal experience, I was spanked quite a few times as a child. Not regular enough to constitute a standard case of abuse, but enough that I realized it was not effective. I wasn't the normal child of course, from the age of 3, when I could barely talk, I wanted a reason to do something, and if given a reason, I would do it. My parents were wrong in their punishment numerous times (for example, at school I was regulary attacked by a bully. One day I just smack the bully back, and I am not only suspended for 3 days (nothing happens to the bully who starts it), my parents punish me with hard labor all three days. That was the last time I respected my parents judgment for a long time, and even now as an adult, I realize they were completely wrong in their punishment, especially considering they had done little to stop the bully up to that point. Since then, I have a very strong distrust in letting authority take care of my problems.)

Exactly how many of abnormalities I currently have resulted from being spanked, I don't know. What I do know is that I had anger management problems untill I took counselling. I also developed ADHD, thought the jury will probably forever be out if that was a result of nature or nurture.

And never spank a pre-teen or older. By that age, they will see it as an act of violence, not of discipline, and they will habor those feelings for a long time.

 

[SearcherKris]

lawtonfogle,

Out of curiosity, and not to challenge you, what is your major in college? I see in your profile that you are a Junior.

What are you basing your opinions on? Is it study, personal opinion, what you have learned in counseling? I'm just wanting to know more of where you are comming from.

You say you developed ADHD. Are you aware that it is a chemical imballance in the brain and is not caused by life experiences? Stress, depression, and anxiety can cause symptoms of ADHD to become more pronounced. Also depression, exhaustion, and anxiety can all cause symptoms which mimic ADHD, especially in children and adolescents. What age where you when you were diagnosed?

Also, the thing about needing anger managment can actually be a result of ADHD. People with ADD/HD have difficulty controlling impulses and are also very often frustrated people because the brain is not able to prioritize stimuli and organize thought and communication well.

All of this to say, circumstancial and personal experience cannot be hard and fast indicators of what is wrong or right in regard to parenting/disciplining children. There are far too many variables involved.

Could your parent's poor discipline of you cause you to have ADHD? no.
Could your parent's poor discipline of you cause symptoms of ADHD to present themselves or worsen? yes.

I have ADD. My older son has ADHD and Asperger's. So, I know the effect it has, and also that discipline needs to be handled carefully.

Btw, my parents sucked at discipline, too. It still hurts. I don't know how many times I was punished for something I should not have been and sometimes without even knowing the reason. Then there were also other times I needed discipline and structure and there was none at all. At 32 years of age I still struggle because of it.

 

[Risen Tree]

Mling, you are a voice of reason. I hope that many people hear will listen to the wisdom that you very clearly have.

This came up, fairly randomly, in a different thread, and it's one of my 'pet peeve' topics, so I started to derail the conversation. Rather than do that, here's a new thread!

I am vehemently opposed to corporal punishment of anybody other than mentally functioning, free, consenting, adults.

I have lots of personal reasons, and I'm not going to list them all here, but here are two.

The first is pretty simple. Make a little chart, comparing different ways that spanking is viewed in different situations. The two factors are age and consent. Here's whatcha get:

Consenting adult: This is usually a sexual situation. Some people see it as a 'kink,' others as a fetish or a perversion. Some people who don't like it are completely fine with it, on a moral level; other people think it's immoral. Treated as illegal in some American states, though individuals in their homes are rarely prosecuted.

Non-consenting adult: A person more powerful than you either grabs you and forcibly strips you, then begins hitting a sexual area of your body, or uses some form of mental or emotional force to make you go along with it. This is sexual assault. Most any adult who experienced it would feel violated, and some might even consider it similar to rape. Illegal.

Consenting child: Ok, this one is sort of hard to imagine, since legally, a child can't consent. Let's take it to mean 'willing,' though. If we also take 'child' to include teenagers, it's possible to imagine a sexual relationship between an adult and a teenager could include spanking as a kink. Most people would probably consider this similar to statutory rape, as adult/teen sexual relationships are usually frowned upon. Illegal.

These three situations, no rational person would deny that they are sexual. Striking an adult on the buttocks is without question a sexual act, as is striking a "consenting" child or adolescent (an oxymoron since they are underage). Now that leads to our fourth situation:

Non-consenting child: Here....many people say it's not only perfectly ok, it's actually vital to a child's wellbeing. The claim is that it's not the slightest bit sexual, and that a child is not harmed by it.

I don't understand that at all. Forced, coerced or 'role-played, actually consenting but let's pretend it's forced' nudity is sexual in every other situation. As is attention given to a person's butt, with their clothes on, (unless it's medical or related to hygiene). It's well understood that children do have sexual feelings. So why would this situation be any different?

Because it's not at all different.

What you have to understand is that spanking has two goals, one of which is to physically hurt the victim, to cause pain. That leads to the next question of why it is on the buttocks. Defenders of spanking may argue that that is because there is more "padding" on the buttocks, and the fact that this is a sexual area of the body is just a coincidence. But if we remember the very purpose of spankings, we see that this argument falls flat. Rather, I contend that the sexual nature of the buttocks, whether inherent or cultural, is the very reason why it is the common target of corporal punishment. Therefore, it stands that sexual violence is the second reason for spanking.

For those who disagree with me, I ask simply: why not slap the child's face? I think the reason is simple: when you have to look in the child's eyes, you realize what you have just done. Spanking a child's buttocks, by contrast, means that the child cannot look you in the eyes while being struck. Though it is a stretch, I wonder if this is not the reason that it is the thighs that are struck, instead, which would also lead back to the sexual nature of where spankings are given.

Anybody else would feel horribly violated if a stronger or otherwise more powerful person started hitting them. Especially in that area of their body. Most people would either be traumatized, or would go through some mental, self-depreciating gymnastics to figure out why they deserve it, the same way that abused children and battered women do.

Most people would quit their jobs and sue if an authority figure decided that spanking them was an appropriate form of office discipline.

How does this all disappear with children? Why would a child not feel raped by forced exposure and sexual pain? Why would a child not feel the same degrading loss of dignity anybody else would feel, if they realized that they needed to submit to such treatment and couldn't fight back?

And, if a child was told that this forced exposure, pain and loss of dignity is appropriate, and they aren't allowed to fight back, how would that child react to being molested? Would they be likely to tell anybody? Would they be likely to realize that they're being abused? Given that child molesters are specifically on the lookout for children who will do what they're told no matter what, and who are unlikely to tell anybody, is it a healthy idea to instill that worldview in your child?

Even if they were not literally exposed, between the physical positioning and the focused attention to their buttocks, the effect is pretty similar.

The fact that a child cannot defend himself or herself while being struck by an authority figure is absolutely absurd. It teaches the child that there are certain instances when he or she is expected to have his or her body struck because of an action done, and not only that, but he or she is *required* to *not* defend himself or herself. If that isn't creepy, I don't know what is.

Quite frankly, I believe that a child or an adolescent has every right to defend hiself or herself from spankings, with physical force if necessary. If an authority figure is suddenly going to become a threat to that child's well-being, then it is in the best interest of the child to receive the right of self-defense. And that is what this debate is all about: what is in the best interest of the child.

My other, more global thought is that, in nearly every other situation where somebody is using a position of authority to hurt other people, it is considered a form of corruption. If a police officer or prison warden beats a prisoner, it is illegal. Likewise a soldier attacking a civilian. A teacher hitting or abusing a student...

To extend the idea, a boss who expects his secretary to do personal errands, and threatens her with some job-oriented discipline if she doesn't (denied a raise or something).

I have to wonder how often this would happen if we stopped teaching our citizens that having power means you can hurt people who don't do what you want. If the child is not taught that power means you can hurt people, how often will the adult assume it does? If the child is not taught that they deserve to be overpowered and hurt, how often will the adult accept such treatment?

You know something I find funny? If a parent were caught massaging a child's buttocks, then they would be thrown in prison as a child molestor (and for good reason). However, that same parent can violent strick the same pair of underaged buttocks, and all of a sudden the action is not only legal, but praised!

Ah, one more:
Some parts of a child's brain is not fully developed. Obviously. Specifically, the frontal lobe is extremely underdeveloped. That is where reasoning and logic take place. The parts of the brain that control survival instincts are pretty much in place, at birth.

Say you're fasting (I'm assuming you're an adult), or deciding to skip a meal for some reason. You get hungry, but you're able to think "Something is more important to me than hunger, so I'm not going to eat." That's your frontal lobe at work. You're using reason to override a survival instinct. Same as if you saw your kid fall through ice, and you dove in to get him. Your body is screaming at you to get out of the water, but your reasoning tells you that something else is more important.

And that's exactly what a young child can't do. That's the part of their brain that doesn't work very well, because a large portion of that part simply isn't there. It still has to grow in.

So, if a child feels pain, their body is yelling at them "DANGER! DANGER! THREAT TO LIFE!!!" If they're hungry, their body is yelling, "YOU MIGHT STARVE!! EAT SOMETHING!!"

How can it be ok to use these instincts against a child, for the convenience of the parent? I mean...how can it be ok for a parent to make their kid feel like they're in mortal danger, at the parent's hand?

How can a child trust an adult after they've had feelings like that? How can they truly believe their parent will protect them, if they've felt, in the past, that their parents might kill them?


So, there we go: how is it ethical or moral to inflict an experience on a child that an adult would feel is comparable to rape, when the child has fewer mental faculties with which to understand it, when the view of authority that it creates is obviously harmful to society at large?

It isn't. Period. And though it ought to be illegal, this nation is not yet civilized enough to come to that point. As such, I think there are two acts of spanking a child that deserve to be criminally punished: (1) Causing visible bruises on a child's body as a result of spanking; the punishment should be just a few months in jail for the first offense but escalate towards felony status for repeat offenses. (2) Spanking a child on his or her partially or fully unclothed buttocks. The latter offense, in my mind (especially in the case of bare buttocks), is just as bad as molesting a child and should be punished as such. After all, if we allow such action on the rear end, what might that adult do to the child's front end?

 

[lawtonfogle]

lawtonfogle,

Out of curiosity, and not to challenge you, what is your major in college? I see in your profile that you are a Junior.

Computer Science and Psychology. I should also change that Junior, I am now a Senior, though I will be going straight to my Masters in Computer Science before I graduate.

What are you basing your opinions on? Is it study, personal opinion, what you have learned in counseling? I'm just wanting to know more of where you are comming from.

Alot of what I know that works comes from me constantly taking care of my brothers. Part of the problem is that they have a 'Your not the dad.' attitude when I am babysitting them, and using physical force is out of the question, so I came up with some interesting alternatives.

As to my other opinions, many of those are based on studying, and a little maybe on counseling though I do not have a good recollection of the counseling (of course, I could still remember things said there, I just would forget to attribute such an idea to it).

Also, I have been studying both abnormal psychology and child abuse this summer as I have classes in both next semester. Of course, self study has potential flaws, so I will expect to have a much better knowledge come December.

You say you developed ADHD. Are you aware that it is a chemical imballance in the brain and is not caused by life experiences? Stress, depression, and anxiety can cause symptoms of ADHD to become more pronounced. Also depression, exhaustion, and anxiety can all cause symptoms which mimic ADHD, especially in children and adolescents. What age where you when you were diagnosed?

Well 'developed' may have been the wrong choice of words. I was diagnosed in the fifth grade, so around 12 (I do not remember my actual age). I know ADHD is resulting from chemical imbalances, but nurture can play a part in things which are mostly nature. Especially in triggering them or making them worse, as you said.

I took medicine till the 8th grade, where I stopped because I was able to function in class without it and I had a very negative reaction to the medicine. I do not know what caused the negative reaction though. For my high school career I was able to pull mostly A's, but my attention span in many classes were horrible. Luckily, I was able to teach myself, a skill I would have been kicked out of college without. As of last semester, I was only able to pay attention consistently in a single class, many others I spent time doing who-knows-what on my laptop, though I was able to pull all A's.

Also, the thing about needing anger managment can actually be a result of ADHD. People with ADD/HD have difficulty controlling impulses and are also very often frustrated people because the brain is not able to prioritize stimuli and organize thought and communication well.

Possibly. I have not been 'pushed over the edge' in numerous years, but from memory all I know is that I get an strong desire to cause harm no matter the cost.

All of this to say, circumstancial and personal experience cannot be hard and fast indicators of what is wrong or right in regard to parenting/disciplining children. There are far too many variables involved.

Of course each child is different. But we will agree in some absolutes. Should sexual abuse ever be used to punish? NO! I have a nearly as strong reaction to the use of physical force on someone who can reason. At best, it teaches them that you must stoop to force, not reasoning, to get your point across, and thus you are on a more primal level than those who use reasoning.

Could your parent's poor discipline of you cause you to have ADHD? no.
Could your parent's poor discipline of you cause symptoms of ADHD to present themselves or worsen? yes.

As I said, developed was the wrong word. I should have said triggered.

I have ADD. My older son has ADHD and Asperger's. So, I know the effect it has, and also that discipline needs to be handled carefully.

Btw, my parents sucked at discipline, too. It still hurts. I don't know how many times I was punished for something I should not have been and sometimes without even knowing the reason. Then there were also other times I needed discipline and structure and there was none at all. At 32 years of age I still struggle because of it.

My parents have not actually punished me since I was at least 14, but then again, I don't recall any incidents where I have needed punishment. I have only been in one fight from the 8th grade up, and all students who saw it agree I was attacked from behind and simply fought back because I was being choked. I think something I said had been misheard or mistaken, or such a thing, which cause the person to lash out at me, but I never fully figured out why it happened.

 

[SearcherKris]

Thank you for your answers. I think you are going to do fine in your chosen profession, and I'm impressed with your self motivation.

I enjoyed the convo.

 

[Mling]

It isn't. Period. And though it ought to be illegal, this nation is not yet civilized enough to come to that point. As such, I think there are two acts of spanking a child that deserve to be criminally punished: (1) Causing visible bruises on a child's body as a result of spanking; the punishment should be just a few months in jail for the first offense but escalate towards felony status for repeat offenses. (2) Spanking a child on his or her partially or fully unclothed buttocks. The latter offense, in my mind (especially in the case of bare buttocks), is just as bad as molesting a child and should be punished as such. After all, if we allow such action on the rear end, what might that adult do to the child's front end?

Thank you Risen Tree!

As for the bolded part, I wouldn't necessarily make that assumption, unless it's obviously true.

My concern is that I've studied a little bit about how pedophiles pick their victims: one basic method is to look for kids who will be most likely to think they *have* to do what a grown up tells them, and who will be least likely to tell anybody. (The other is to look for a kid from a broken home, who gets no attention and craves adult contact.)

Spanking a kid teaches him...exactly that. "Do what bigger people tell you, or they'll hurt you," and it's close enough to molestation that if the kid was actually molested, they may very well think that it's a normal thing. Especially if the adult tells her that her parents already know about it, which is a fairly common method 'keep them from telling' technique. That their parents might send them to somebody to do that to them will ring truer if the parents are doing comparable things, themselves.

Essentially, teaching kids to think this way turns them into rape-bait.

No reasonable parent would ever tell their kid, "Strangers have the best candy, so if somebody offers you some, do whatever they ask, so you'll get it," but spanking them seems to drive that message home even better.

 

[quatona]

You cannot reason with a small child to make them behave.

I suspect that you are touching one major underlying paradigmatic difference between the positions on corporal punishment:
If you feel that the only or most important or even only one of the goals in the upbringing of children is to "make them behave" you and I are already in fundamental disagreement.

 

[SearcherKris]

Guys, I'm sorry. This is getting to me.

I was a child victim of incest. Not to mention being sexually assualted by two guys I knew while I was a teenager, one of them multiple times. This last summer a man turned into a creep on me at camp.

To compare the calm, well intentioned spanking of a child by a loving and trustworthy adult to sexual abuse or assault is quite infuriating.

THERE IS NO COMPARISION.

We're talking apples and oranges here.

I do believe that some people who spank do it abusively. I also believe that people with sexual issue can use "spanking" as a cover up for their perversion/pedophillia.

That does not mean that every person, or even half of the people, who spank children are sexually assaulting them.

People who are sick are going to do sick things and pervert those things that are good. People who are healthy are going to do good things with the right motive and in the right way.

I am totally 100% against abuse and sexual crime.

What if we were talking about kissing? Adults kiss in foreplay and during sex. Adults also can kiss their kids without getting aroused or doing it in an assaulting way to the child.

The same activity can be used for more than one purpose, for totally different motives, and have completely different effects.

 

[quatona]

To compare the calm, well intentioned spanking of a child by a loving and trustworthy adult to sexual abuse or assault is quite infuriating.

THERE IS NO COMPARISION.

We're talking apples and oranges here.

I tend to agree, but I don´t think that the mere fact that it isn´t necessarily sexual abuse or assault helps justifying cold-blooded corporal punishment.

 

[Mling]

Guys, I'm sorry. This is getting to me.

I was a child victim of incest. Not to mention being sexually assualted by two guys I knew while I was a teenager, one of them multiple times. This last summer a man turned into a creep on me at camp.

To compare the calm, well intentioned spanking of a child by a loving and trustworthy adult to sexual abuse or assault is quite infuriating.

THERE IS NO COMPARISION.

We're talking apples and oranges here.

I do believe that some people who spank do it abusively. I also believe that people with sexual issue can use "spanking" as a cover up for their perversion/pedophillia.

That does not mean that every person, or even half of the people, who spank children are sexually assaulting them.

People who are sick are going to do sick things and pervert those things that are good. People who are healthy are going to do good things with the right motive and in the right way.

I am totally 100% against abuse and sexual crime.

What if we were talking about kissing? Adults kiss in foreplay and during sex. Adults also can kiss their kids without getting aroused or doing it in an assaulting way to the child.

The same activity can be used for more than one purpose, for totally different motives, and have completely different effects.

I understand that there is a world of difference between actual rape and what's considered the 'best' sort of spanking. But I believe that it is a difference of shade, not hue, if that makes sense. It is a strong person physically violating a weaker person's body with the intent of causing pain. That puts it in the same 'type' of activity as rape, in my book, though rape is at the very extreme end of the spectrum and spanking is more towards the other, milder end.

My concern, with the sexual side of it, is not exactly that spanking, is, of itself, comparable to rape; my first concern is that the mindset it creates makes a child more vulnerable to being exploited by *other* people. "Exploitation" might be a better way to go with this. People exploit children, often, by molesting them. But I've seen it play out with young adults, also, who were being exploited by their employers, and new it, but felt like they couldn't do anything about it because "She has authority over me, so I just have to do what she says."

In large part, my concern for that side of it is that I think it's wrong to make a person's view of morality, or their self-image, dependent on obedience, and spanking enforces nothing *but* obedience. Not morality, responsibility or anything else. Just obedience, through fear and pain. It creates a stunted adult, and it's just plain dangerous for a child, because it makes them so vulnerable.

The other side of it is that I can't imagine any good comes from making a child's first sexual-type experiences center around humiliation and punishment. Most people who bring that up go on to point at adult erotic spanking and coo about how sad it is that people need to be punished to feel aroused. Me, I see nothing wrong with BDSM, and for every person who says "I got into it because I was spanked," there's somebody else who says, "I was always curious because I *wasn't*." So...that's a different conversation, but I'm just saying...I don't think spanking a kid *causes* interest in BDSM, any more than not spanking a kid does.

But...still.....this is one that just really bugs me. In general, I'm all for *avoiding* sexual situations with children whenever possible. And I really can't imagine it being healthy to make a person's first sexual-esque experience center around force, pain and humiliation. That's one where i'm not going to say "X will happen because of it," but....it just seems like a really screwy thing to do to somebody, and like...whatever that X will be, I can't imagine it's anything healthy or good.

edit: As for kissing, if we're talking about, "Come give Aunt Mildred a kiss!" "I dun wanna!! Her mustache tickles!" then...whatever, not a big deal. If you're talking about somebody who keeps repeatedly kissing a kid who really doesn't want to, and is likely trying to get away, then yeah, I'd have a problem with that. Kissing isn't inherently sexual, though. It's inherently affectionate and intimate. People kiss all sorts of people, for all sorts of reasons: grandmother's, friends, people they just met and liked, kids, adults, same sex, opposite sex....... the experience of spanking is a whole lot more monolithic. It is humiliating, scary and painful. People who like it, like it for sexual reasons. People who don't like it, don't like it for sexual reasons. All I'm saying is that children are people, and it is wrong to assume that there's some enormous difference in their experiences.

 

[Risen Tree]

Thank you Risen Tree!

As for the bolded part, I wouldn't necessarily make that assumption, unless it's obviously true.

The former doesn't necessarily lead to the latter, but it makes the path towards molestation much easier to travel.

My concern is that I've studied a little bit about how pedophiles pick their victims: one basic method is to look for kids who will be most likely to think they *have* to do what a grown up tells them, and who will be least likely to tell anybody. (The other is to look for a kid from a broken home, who gets no attention and craves adult contact.)

Spanking a kid teaches him...exactly that. "Do what bigger people tell you, or they'll hurt you," and it's close enough to molestation that if the kid was actually molested, they may very well think that it's a normal thing. Especially if the adult tells her that her parents already know about it, which is a fairly common method 'keep them from telling' technique. That their parents might send them to somebody to do that to them will ring truer if the parents are doing comparable things, themselves.

Essentially, teaching kids to think this way turns them into rape-bait.

No reasonable parent would ever tell their kid, "Strangers have the best candy, so if somebody offers you some, do whatever they ask, so you'll get it," but spanking them seems to drive that message home even better.

I think you're on to something here.

Which again, is another reason why I believe a child has every right to defend himself or herself from spankings. To counter that an adult deserves more protection than a child...well, it would take some seriously twisted beliefs to claim such an absurdity.

Really, nonconsensual physical violence, particularly if there is a sexual element, has the singular goal of overpowering the victim. Spankings are not about love (unless the perverted version of "love" is taken); they are about power.

Guys, I'm sorry. This is getting to me.

I was a child victim of incest. Not to mention being sexually assualted by two guys I knew while I was a teenager, one of them multiple times. This last summer a man turned into a creep on me at camp.

To compare the calm, well intentioned spanking of a child by a loving and trustworthy adult to sexual abuse or assault is quite infuriating.

THERE IS NO COMPARISION.

We're talking apples and oranges here.

Searcher, there aren't any words one can adequately use to express one's sympathy for such a horrid action. With the possible exception of raping an adult, there is probably not another crime on the planet as horrid as child molestation.

However, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. If I strike a child across the buttocks and tell her that it is because I love her, as some authority figures do, this does not change the fact of what I am doing.

I do believe that some people who spank do it abusively. I also believe that people with sexual issue can use "spanking" as a cover up for their perversion/pedophillia.

That does not mean that every person, or even half of the people, who spank children are sexually assaulting them.

People who are sick are going to do sick things and pervert those things that are good. People who are healthy are going to do good things with the right motive and in the right way.

I am totally 100% against abuse and sexual crime.

What if we were talking about kissing? Adults kiss in foreplay and during sex. Adults also can kiss their kids without getting aroused or doing it in an assaulting way to the child.

The same activity can be used for more than one purpose, for totally different motives, and have completely different effects.

So would you say that there are certain instances where an adult couple could engage in spanking and not have it be sexual? Besides, your next to last paragraph could be used by a child molester to defend acts of foreplay. And I'm very sorry, but unless you are against *all* forms of sexual violence, you can't really claim that you're "totally 100% against" it.

 

[Joachim]

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

 

[DeathMagus]

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

And rubbing whiskey on a teething child's gums is a good idea.