Corporal Punishment

[jpcedotal]

Huh, interesting. In my experience the kids throwing the temper tantrums are the ones who are getting spanked, and the parents who don't do spankings rarely have to deal with such issues...

But all either of us has is anecdotal stories. I wonder if anyone did a scientific study on the frequency and severity of temper tantrums with respect to spankings.

Do you have children?

 

[yasic]

Do you have children?

I do not, however circumstances* made it so that a lot of whom I consider to be my friends, even my peers, are in their mid to late twenties and do have children.

Child abuse is an issue I take very seriously, and spanking is an extension of this, so I quite often discuss this issue with them, so I know the general patterns of behavior and punishment methods of a number of families with children.


*I started college when I just turned 16 years of age(and these were not your freshman introductory courses), and many of my classes had my peers be around 22 years of age, and I formed friendships with a number of them.

 

[keith99]

Here's the thing...you could have that conversation without the spanking, and the effect of the spanking itself is actually minimized *by* that conversation.

If you touch a hot stove, the action and the pain are directly connected. It's the immediacy of that connection that really makes the point. If you separate the cause and the effect with enough time to walk them to their bedroom and talk about it, then the connection is lost. The point is lost. *Especially* with a four year old.

If you aren't going to take advantage of the real educational value of pain, why use it at all?

(Yet another reason for my opposition is that spanking has to be sort of brutal to be meaningful, for reasons other than what I just said. More on that if somebody wants to hear it.)

If they understand what they've done wrong, then that's a wonderful opportunity to *enhance* the way they think, by then explaining why a relevant form of discipline was chosen. If they're old enough to understand that going out of bounds is bad, then they're old enough to understand that their punishment is that they have to stay in smaller bounds. If they can understand that they abused a privilege, they can understand why they're losing it. And if they're old enough to understand issues of trust, they're old enough to understand why it needs to be earned back, once lost.

It's thought that *this* is the reason why children who are spanked tend to lag behind their peers in cognitive reasoning. Because they miss out on those immensely valuable lessons and conversations in cause and effect (and empathy, responsibility and anything else that might be connected to a childish crime.) Mistakes and misjudgements are how we learn. If a significant number of opportunities to learn something are replaced with "Daddy will hit me," then whatever might have been learned from them is lost.

Thank you. You have perfectly shown the antispanking peoples clear bias. A spanking does NOT have to be brutal to be effective. In fact from what I have seen a spanking is not effective if the actual pain is the major factor. Spanking is most effective when the symbolic part makes the greatest impact.

 

[Mling]

Thank you. You have perfectly shown the antispanking peoples clear bias. A spanking does NOT have to be brutal to be effective. In fact from what I have seen a spanking is not effective if the actual pain is the major factor. Spanking is most effective when the symbolic part makes the greatest impact.

I would take a guess that it's the things other than spanking that are having that effect, given that a tap, in and of itself, is neither effective discipline, nor symbolic.

Effectively, what you've just said is that, out of children who are spanked, the ones who almost *aren't* spanked are the best disciplined.


I'll concede that, certainly. Almost everything that's bad for people has a minimum dose, under which, it doesn't really hurt you. Out of kids who are exposed to lead, the ones who are only exposed to 'symbolic' amounts of it are the healthiest, also.

 

[sk8Joyful]

Do you have children?

Yes, I'm a proud mom, with no problems, with "kiddo in public", or otherwise. Actually, that starts way before, kiddo even has a chance. - I used positive-attentive, constructive & creative ways, such that Public-behavior was no challenge. -
Life together was intended as a mutually-enjoyable Adventure!...

 

[jpcedotal]

I do not, however circumstances* made it so that a lot of whom I consider to be my friends, even my peers, are in their mid to late twenties and do have children.

Child abuse is an issue I take very seriously, and spanking is an extension of this, so I quite often discuss this issue with them, so I know the general patterns of behavior and punishment methods of a number of families with children.


*I started college when I just turned 16 years of age(and these were not your freshman introductory courses), and many of my classes had my peers be around 22 years of age, and I formed friendships with a number of them.

So you are smart and mature and are around parents with kids, so you already know exactly what it is like to:

1: stay up all night with your child with an ear ache and is begging you to please stop the hurt.
2: bury your child's pet that you accidentally ran over
3: stand silently with tears while your child takes a big step up into the school bus for the first time.

What do any of these things have to do with spanking? Nothing and everything. NEVER, will you fully understand what it is to bring another human being into this cruel world who is so innocent and so perfect and so vulnerable; who is depending on YOU for his/her survival. Who loves you unconditionally. It is the greatest and scariest moment of your life.

To sit and spew that text book junk shows exactly what you don't know.

 

[jpcedotal]

Yes, I'm a proud mom, with no problems, with "kiddo in public", or otherwise. Actually, that starts way before, kiddo even has a chance. - I used positive-attentive, constructive & creative ways, such that Public-behavior was no challenge. -
Life together was intended as a mutually-enjoyable Adventure!...

Another parent who has decided spanking isn't the way, I can respect, though I disagree.

 

[yasic]

So you are smart and mature

I never claimed this, and would in fact think the opposite.

and are around parents with kids, so you already know exactly what it is like to:

1: stay up all night with your child with an ear ache and is begging you to please stop the hurt.
2: bury your child's pet that you accidentally ran over
3: stand silently with tears while your child takes a big step up into the school bus for the first time.

What do any of these things have to do with spanking? Nothing and everything. NEVER, will you fully understand what it is to bring another human being into this cruel world who is so innocent and so perfect and so vulnerable; who is depending on YOU for his/her survival. Who loves you unconditionally. It is the greatest and scariest moment of your life.

To sit that and spew text book junk shows exactly what you don't know.

I am not questioning your love or caring for your child, nor would I have any basis to do this even if I wanted to.

This however, does not mean I can't discuss scientific findings and moral issues relating to having children.

That would be like saying that I can't discuss if it should be the law to give pets rabies shots if I never owned and loved a cat. I can look at the studies and conclusions drawn from them without actually having a personal connection to it.

Also, would you be making the same argument if I were arguing against female genital mutilation with another person? Just because I don't have children means I cannot discuss the scientific reasons against such a procedure?

 

[keith99]

How do you know how these kids are treated at home?

For that matter, how do you know how the kids who *aren't* like that are being treated at home? do you make a habit of interviewing parents?

I was spanked *extremely* rarely and I would never had done anything like that in public, at any age older than infancy. (I can count the number of times from age 2 to 12 on one hand, and that includes a few times that most people wouldn't really call "spanking" and would fall more in the category of "adult temper tantrum." My parent who was subjected to very regular CP is prone to those)

In general, what you're talking about is similar to 'confirmation bias.' You notice all the kids who fit your assumptions, and none of those that don't. And you need to make *more* assumptions in order to make them fit. IE: you assume that the good kids are spanked and the nasty ones aren't, and then point at the nasty ones and say "that's why you're wrong."

I agree totally about the confirmation bias issue. But fair is fair, both sides do it. One thing from your post struck me. Your parent was subjected to frequent CP. I'd say 99% of such cases would fall into one of 2 classes. First being true classical abuse. The other is repeatedly trying a form of discipline that is clearly shown to not be effective. (or both). If it does not work try something else. Again there are plenty on both sides that are guilty of this.

BTW just to set it out on the record, I was rarely spanked. Only one I can remember at home. Once at school (very unfair situation). If one counts counts being spanked with a kickboard then one could say I was spanked a lot as that was used a fair amount by one swimming coach I had, but to be accurate that was much more like a rolled up newspaper for a dog, it makes more noise than anything else. Later in life it became clear that pain per se would have been a rather ineffective way of controling me (I've seperated a shoulder and not stopped playing Rugby and broken fingers without even being aware of it).

 

[jpcedotal]

I never claimed this, and would in fact think the opposite.


I am not questioning your love or caring for your child, nor would I have any basis to do this even if I wanted to.

This however, does not mean I can't discuss scientific findings (no such thing, all are bias whether they agree with my point of view or yours) and moral issues relating to having children.

That would be like saying that I can't discuss if it should be the law to give pets rabies shots if I never owned and loved a cat. I can look at the studies and conclusions drawn from them without actually having a personal connection to it.

Also, would you be making the same argument if I were arguing against female genital mutilation with another person? Just because I don't have children means I cannot discuss the scientific reasons against such a procedure?

It is not the same, not even close, but there is no comparison that I can give you to make you understand.

But I do apologize for my outburst....I think I am just tired and I picked on you.

 

[yasic]

It is not the same, not even close, but there is no comparison that I can give you to make you understand.

But I do apologize for my outburst....I think I am just tired and I picked on you.

I see no issues (in terms of debate etiquette, I still think your wrong ) with your posts.

I would like to know how they are not the same? What separates the two?

 

[jpcedotal]

I see no issues (in terms of debate etiquette, I still think your wrong ) with your posts.

I would like to know how they are not the same? What separates the two?

Love, unconditional love. I put my children before myself so there are different rules than just analyzing some opinion poll.

 

[Mling]

I agree totally about the confirmation bias issue. But fair is fair, both sides do it. One thing from your post struck me. Your parent was subjected to frequent CP. I'd say 99% of such cases would fall into one of 2 classes. First being true classical abuse. The other is repeatedly trying a form of discipline that is clearly shown to not be effective. (or both). If it does not work try something else. Again there are plenty on both sides that are guilty of this.

BTW just to set it out on the record, I was rarely spanked. Only one I can remember at home. Once at school (very unfair situation). If one counts counts being spanked with a kickboard then one could say I was spanked a lot as that was used a fair amount by one swimming coach I had, but to be accurate that was much more like a rolled up newspaper for a dog, it makes more noise than anything else. Later in life it became clear that pain per se would have been a rather ineffective way of controling me (I've seperated a shoulder and not stopped playing Rugby and broken fingers without even being aware of it).

As for my parent, I don't exactly know the situation. I know that he attended a British school in India, during the 1960's, which used the cane and other forms of corporal punishment as its standard form of discipline, and that he received some amount of it. I don't know how much or how often, so maybe "very regular" was an assumption on my part. But...given the type of school, and his personality, I think it's fair assumption.

Beyond that...again...you're basically saying that you weren't really spanked, as a form of discipline, and it would have been ineffective if you had been.

 

[orre]

Of course children should not be abused. Sweden was the first nation to declare child abuse as an offense, since 1979. I guess you can grip a child around the arm or such, and yeall at them, as long as you don't squeeze hard. Threats can still be used here, but I guess they could be equally or even more devestating to a child, as a young mind is more fragile in a way. Can't really picture myself hiting my children, I would just feel that I would be a cruel and terrible father.
Really, why should something that is illegal against grownups be considered ok against minors? And I cannot see the benefit of building up a relationship of fear between parent and child.

 

[yasic]

Love, unconditional love. I put my children before myself so there are different rules than just analyzing some opinion poll.

If you think that the families that do female circumcision do not love their daughters, you would be mistaken (for the most part). So I still fail to see the difference?

 

[Mling]

Of course children should not be abused. Sweden was the first nation to declare child abuse as an offense, since 1979. I guess you can grip a child around the arm or such, and yeall at them, as long as you don't squeeze hard. Threats can still be used here, but I guess they could be equally or even more devestating to a child, as a young mind is more fragile in a way. Can't really picture myself hiting my children, I would just feel that I would be a cruel and terrible father.
Really, why should something that is illegal against grownups be considered ok against minors? And I cannot see the benefit of building up a relationship of fear between parent and child.

What I find really *REAAAALLLLY* interesting about the Sweden thing is that Americans tend to respond to that idea by saying, "So, if a parent spanks their kid, the parent gets arrested or fined or something? That just hurts the kid!"

I think that response (which I've heard every time the topic has come up) demonstrates exactly *why* the law is a good idea. Because, in our culture, we make an automatic connection between misbehavior and suffering. If you do a Bad, you are made to suffer as the consequence.

The actual effect of the law is that the parent has to take parenting classes. Rather than a "Bad=suffering" approach, they take a "poor judgement = learning opportunity" approach.

Again, when the mindset of spanking is taken to adult society, we can see how flawed it is. But, what's that saying? As bends the twig, so grows the branch, or something like that? The way we parent children will likely be pretty similar to the way the government governs us. Why? Because the government is nothing more than a group of authority figures, and everybody learns what "authority" means, as a child, from their parents.

 

[Mling]

Of course children should not be abused. Sweden was the first nation to declare child abuse as an offense, since 1979. I guess you can grip a child around the arm or such, and yeall at them, as long as you don't squeeze hard. Threats can still be used here, but I guess they could be equally or even more devestating to a child, as a young mind is more fragile in a way. Can't really picture myself hiting my children, I would just feel that I would be a cruel and terrible father.
Really, why should something that is illegal against grownups be considered ok against minors? And I cannot see the benefit of building up a relationship of fear between parent and child.

I agree. There are only two things I can't forgive my father for (off the top of my head,) and they are both simple, off the cuff things he said, not things he did.

 

[Gishin]

and u grew up to be a liberal and an atheist...that's enough proof for me......

People like you make me want to take back what I said simply so I don't stand on the same side as you.

 

[DeathMagus]

As a child, I found spanking to be extremely ineffective. If I asked why I had to do something, and my answer was a spanking, my natural conclusion was that there wasn't a reason - I was simply being coerced into doing what my parents wanted. That the punishment was completely unrelated to the crime facilitated this - if the only reason you don't do bad things as a child is because you fear pain, at best you will have to relearn everything once pain is no longer considered an acceptable discipline method.

Hitting your playmates? Nobody likes being around a bully, so a timeout shows what it's like when nobody wants to be around you and you're left lonely and bored.

Breaking your toys? Nobody will be buying you new things when you're grown up, so I'm not going to run out and buy you more things to replace what you destroyed. The child is literally creating their own punishment. Why stop them?

Won't eat dinner? That's their dinner, and nobody will be making anything else for them. Once they finish their food, they can have the next meal. Until then, I'll just be refrigerating and reheating the food they refused to eat. They'll get hungry eventually, and will learn that food they didn't like the first time around is even worse two and three reheats later.

Spanking is easy to love as a parent because it is effective for them - it gets the child to stop doing whatever they were supposed to stop doing. But effective for the child's cognitive development? I'm skeptical.

 

[jpcedotal]

People like you make me want to take back what I said simply so I don't stand on the same side as you.

yawn