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Convince me of Continuationism.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Jul 12, 2020.

  1. Silly Uncle Wayne

    Silly Uncle Wayne Well-Known Member

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    Sorry Albion, but that wasn't what I was saying, nor even what Samarin was saying (as far as I can tell). He did linguistic assessment over a long period of time and decided that there were two types of tongues (not something I agree with).

    Additionally I have been present when someone spoke in a foreign language unknown to them and had it interpreted by someone who did know the language and what was being said, as well as having a lecturer explain the same thing had happened to him. On top of that there are enough cases that I have read of that would count as third hand cases but who have said virtually the same thing.

    And that is not even bringing into account the possibility that a language spoken is not known to either the speaker or an interpreter (Interpretation of tongues is a spiritual gifts).

    I'm not saying that all tongues are genuine languages or even genuine... but some are. And that causes a problem for cessationism.
     
  2. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Is the Anglican position officially continuationist?
     
  3. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Okay. That there might be more than one kind of tongue was all I was focusing on, but this is what happens when a person comes upon an interesting subject (or returns to it after some time, as in this case) and isn't "up" on all that's been posted before. I apologize.
     
  4. Silly Uncle Wayne

    Silly Uncle Wayne Well-Known Member

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    Well, I've returned after a week too and I haven't looked at the previous posts (not even sure whether I will bother or not).
     
  5. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    Samarin studied the thing that "people who speak in tongues" actually do, and concluded that it is not language of any kind.
     
  6. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    I don't believe you, because every actual study of "speaking in tongues" shows that it is not a language of any kind, but the sounds of the speaker's own language put together randomly.

    Furthermore, many ex-Pentecostals have explained how they were taught to do this.

    All this is entirely in keeping with the Cessationist position.
     
  7. Silly Uncle Wayne

    Silly Uncle Wayne Well-Known Member

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    Bible Highlighter - you asked for a Biblical case for Continuationism. Personally, since cessation is not explicitly called for in the Bible, continuationism has nothing to prove. It is quite clear from a reading of the scriptures that Paul expected the gifts to be continued to be used in Corinth, that Luke when writing Acts saw no need to give any warning that the gifts were no longer in use and the the writer of the longer Mark ending in early second century also had no reason to suppose the gifts were no longer in use.

    So while there is no clear indication that God intended to recall his 'gifts' (making a mockery of the word gift), 1 Corinthians does tell us that that the believer has some measure of control over their use (e.g. 14:32) and so the gifts could have fallen out of use. Certainly I would have expected them to do so when the Roman Empire adopted Christianity under Constantine precisely because those converting from other religions for the tax breaks would have been nominal in their beliefs.

    That said church history is full of examples of miraculous acts, not all of them hagiography. So by voluntarily ceasing to use them the church could voluntarily start to use them again. History earlier than the 1800's is a bit vague for our purposes because what is recorded is recorded by a few and specific references may or may not refer to use of gifts. However from Edward Irving's church onwards numerous groups, sometimes even spontaneously began using spiritual gifts (over emphasising tongues, I think). So Irving, Latter Rain, Pentecostalism, Charismatic Renewal and Catholic Charismatic Renewal all came to the same conclusion: that the gifts of the Spirit were as relevant today as they were in the first few centuries of Christianity.

    It clearly wasn't a bed of roses though. Irving got into trouble with his teaching and lost his position in his denomination first and church later (because he wasn't radical enough for them). Pentecostalism and Charismatic Renewals have suffered from huge scandals and poor teaching (something that continues to this day, it seems). Nevertheless the need for gifts is evident as we look at the decline of the church. According to Corinthians the gifts are to build up the church and it is significant that it is the Gift orientated churches that are bucking the trend of decline worldwide.

    If the Holy Spirit has provided these gifts it behooves us to use them. Moreover, teaching should be provided in their proper use (as per 1 Co:12-14) rather than trying to suppress them. After 100 years of Pentecostalism, I think the cat is well and truly out of the bag and any attempt to put it back is damaging to the body of Christ (see 1 Co 12)
     
  8. Silly Uncle Wayne

    Silly Uncle Wayne Well-Known Member

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    So you are saying I'm a liar. Thanks Radagast.
     
  9. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    I'm saying that you are misled, and that a bunch of people are fooling themselves.
     
  10. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    So you're saying that "Laba clomma laba laba" isn't a real language.

    Certainly. Some quite well-known tongues-speakers have conducted seminars in how to make the sounds. I've witnessed it myself.
     
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  11. Silly Uncle Wayne

    Silly Uncle Wayne Well-Known Member

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    Isn't that a response based on a preconceived idea rather than what has actually happened.

    At the heart of the question is one of whether or not God is capable of being involved in people's life in this way and to think otherwise is to diminish God.
     
  12. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    Indeed. For two reasons:

    1) there's not enough information content, in the mathematical sense;

    2) this sort of thing always recycles the sounds of the speaker's own language. A foreign language would add foreign sounds.

    And you pointed out a third:

    3) it's easily faked, and indeed people run lessons on how to fake it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
  13. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    It's a response based on many published studies of "tongues," plus my speaking to ex-Pentecostals, plus experiences of my own in Pentecostal churches.

    There is certainly a huge amount of deception going on; that deception is certainly not from God.

    It's possible that there are a handful of tiny nuggets in the middle of all that dross, but that seems unlikely to me (and to Cessationists in general).
     
  14. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    All very true. Studies show that not only do tongues-speaking Germans, for instance, speak whatever language is claimed with a German accent, but even New Englanders in the USA differ in the same way from Southern Pentecostals.
     
  15. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Actually, it is not. No one is denying that God can do just about anything. The issue is whether or not he does do this.
     
  16. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    It's not just accent. For example, English has a limited range of consonant sounds compared to, say, Hindi:

    [​IMG]

    English "tongue speakers" only use the English consonant sounds.

    Some English consonant sounds never occur at the start of English words, although they do in other languages. English "tongue speakers" never put those consonant sounds at the start of "words."

    Mandarin, Cantonese, Vietnamese, Thai, and many other languages are tonal. The "languages" of English "tongue speakers" are never tonal.

    And so forth...
     
  17. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I understand. In basics. But I thought that was your other point.

    ;)
     
  18. Silly Uncle Wayne

    Silly Uncle Wayne Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, and he does :)
     
  19. Silly Uncle Wayne

    Silly Uncle Wayne Well-Known Member

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    Some languages have less consonant sounds that English (e.g. No 'J' in Greek). Very rare, but I once heard someone use clicks in tongues. At that the time I thought they were faking it very obviously but I hadn't heard languages spoken with clicks such as Xhosa. Because it was early in my Christian life I have no idea if they were actually speaking in tongues or speaking a language they knew.

    Also the very first time I spoke in tongues it was tonal. However I have no idea if it was a genuine language or not.

    I've also heard someone use what sounded like Welsh, but again no interpretation and no confirmation that that is what it was. On the other hand all Welsh speakers might just as well be speaking in tongues :)

    So English tongue speakers do use other consonant sounds. Not all of them and not on all occasions. It would be interesting if the assessment you keep referring to was accessible so I could take a look at it and see the conclusions made.
     
  20. Silly Uncle Wayne

    Silly Uncle Wayne Well-Known Member

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    Where and why?
     
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