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Featured Convince me of Annihilationism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by friend of, May 14, 2019.

  1. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The problem with that lies in Revelation 20:6. Those who ressurect AFTER the 1000 year MK are resurrecting to Damnation.

    I think the rapture happens, dead saints are brought to life and living saints are changed in the twinkling of an eye, tribulation comes and some who are alive and left will then come to faith in Jesus and be beheaded/killed, then Jesus returns to rule and reign along with ALL of the saints, not just those who were beheaded for their testimony of Jesus Christ. I dont think scripture necessarily states otherwise, but what do you think about that?
     
  2. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Can't happen that way:
    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


    All the lost living are killed when Jesus returns --and the dead lost remain dead until after the 1000 years---this is an empty desolate planet that us where Satan and his angels only are living as all the saved are with Jesus. It is not until after the 1000 years that the lost are resurrected for their judgement. There is no 2nd chance for anyone. If you read post 97 and 98 all pertinent verses are there.
     
  3. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think you misunderstood me. I'm saying that those who will sit on the thrones judging will not only be they who were beheaded, but all saints who were raptured earlier and all the saints who were in soul sleep earlier.
     
  4. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <B5>Ok, I'll take your first one and show you how your'e reading into the definition.
    Exodus 3:15
    (15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this ismy name for ever,[עולם/olam] and this is my memorial unto all generations.
    In this vs. “name olam” corresponds to “unto all generations.” “Age(s),”a finite period, does not correspond to “unto all generations,”“for ever” does.
    Show me where all generations is defined as eternal. You can't, you're just assuming it and reading back into definition....
    <B5>
    Have you ever had any experience with a language beside English? You evidently have not.
    I speak more than one language. For some reason from my earliest memories I had an interest in German. When I was about 12 one of my teachers who had learned German in college had his German books in the classroom. I borrowed them and for about a year I studied German on my own with advice from the teacher. I was fortunate about 5 years later I was stationed in Germany where I learned even more German. I was stationed in Germany a total of 5.5 years.
    .....Once in Germany I was having a conversation with an acquaintance who did not speak English. She said a word I did not know "beinahe." pronounced "by-nah-eh." She explained or defined the word something like this, "It is not yet 12 o'clock but beinahe 12 o'clock." So I understood that the word meant "nearly" or "almost."
    Now let us look at the verse I quoted using the same reasoning.

    ..."this [YHWH] is my name for ever,[עולם/olam] and this is my memorial unto all generations."
    Does anything is this verse give us a hint as to the endurance of God's name? God's name cannot be only ages long when it is a memorial to all generations. And right now that is about 3400 years. This one of the many ways translators determine the meaning of a word. Here are 2 more verses which define the word "olam" for us.
    Isa 9:6-7
    (6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting [עו/ ad] Father, The Prince of Peace.

    (7) Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. [עולם/olam] The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
    In this passage עולם/olam and עו/ad are paired with “shall be no end.” By definition עולם/olam and עו/ad mean “everlasting/shall be no end.”
    Isa 51:6
    (6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
    In this vs. “salvation olam” corresponds to “shall not be abolished”, “age(s),” a finite period, does not correspond to “shall not be abolished,” “forever” does.

     
  5. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Bushes are not capable of sustaining flames, they will be quickly consumed, unless God decides otherwise. Exodus 3:2
    Human bodies are not capable of sustaining flames, they will eventually burn to ashes, unless God decides otherwise. Daniel 3:24-25
    God is not constrained by the standard "rules" of nature that man is limited by.
     
  6. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    You keep just repeating the same thing. I've already shown you that you're wrong. I just showed you where Jesus spoke of the end of the aion. An aion ends. Eternity doesn't end, thus aion cannot mean eternity. It doesn't matter how you try to reason your way through it. It simply can't mean eternal. Paul likewise has shown that things that were said to be olam ended. This indicates that either your reasoning is wrong or your understanding of the word age is wrong. I linked the site that shows olam is used of both time and direction. It means what is over the horizon. That is, what's unseen. What's unseen is unknown. It's an unknown duration of time. Likewise an age is an unknown duration of time. That's why we see phrases like, unto the ages of ages, denoting a really long time. You would have us understand that phrase as unto the eternities of eternities. That doesn't even make sense. If eternity never ends how can you have multiple eternities? You can't. It's just another evidence that aion and olam don't mean eternity.
     
  7. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Revelation 22:15 does NOT occur after creation of the New Heavens and earth.

    Revelation 22:6 through Revelation 22:17 is talking about the return of Jesus .... not the end of time.

    When Jesus returns the 1st resurrection happens and all the saved are taken to heaven with Him for the 1,000 years. Then the 2nd resurrection happens (the condemned), then the battle of Gog and Magog (Armageddon) takes place, then God destroys the earth and everything in it... then He makes everything new.
     
  8. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <B5>You keep just repeating the same thing. I've already shown you that you're wrong. I just showed you where Jesus spoke of the end of the aion. An aion ends. Eternity doesn't end, thus aion cannot mean eternity. It doesn't matter how you try to reason your way through it. It simply can't mean eternal. Paul likewise has shown that things that were said to be olam ended. This indicates that either your reasoning is wrong or your understanding of the word age is wrong. I linked the site that shows olam is used of both time and direction. It means what is over the horizon. That is, what's unseen. What's unseen is unknown. It's an unknown duration of time. Likewise an age is an unknown duration of time. That's why we see phrases like, unto the ages of ages, denoting a really long time. You would have us understand that phrase as unto the eternities of eternities. That doesn't even make sense. If eternity never ends how can you have multiple eternities? You can't. It's just another evidence that aion and olam don't mean eternity.<B5>

    Do you have any education or training in Greek at all?
    You say that Jesus said an "aion had an end" thus, in your unsupported opinion, "aion cannot mean eternity."
    .....Jesus also said Simon was a "stone," Herod was an "old fox," James and John were "sons of thunder." that He was a "door," a "light," and "bread." That someone could "swallow a camel." that the Pharisees were "snakes and viper."
    Do you believe that these statements are literal?
    .....In the book "Figures of Speech Used in the Bible," by E.W. Bullinger, London, 1898 http://www.charleswelch.net/figuresofspeechbullinger.pdf
    Bullinger who was a real Greek scholar, not someone trying to support his assumptions/presuppositions, lists more than 200 figures of speech in the Bible.
    One of those is "epizeuxis," "Repetition of the same word in the same sense for emphasis or vehemence." Here is an example.

    Rev. i. 6. —" The ages of the ages," i.e., to the remotest age, for ever and ever. pg. 284.
    I could quote Greek authorities like Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich which represents about 120-140 years of Greek scholarship but you evidently believe that your unsupported opinion trumps all the Greek sources. But I will continue pointing out errors so that people won't be misled by assumptions/presuppositions posted here.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2019
  9. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The Bible Eons

    The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
     
  10. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Well, you've implied that Jesus' statement was not literal, yet you've provided no evidence as to why we should understand it figuratively. If it's a figure of speech as you implied, please explain the figure. In addition you'd also need to show how every occurrence of the word used finitely is also a figure of speech.

    About your "scholars". They all have beliefs, a theology that guides their understanding of the Bible. The theology also drives their translations and other works. It's doesn't matter how many years a person studies something that is wrong, it's still wrong. Another problem is that many of these "authorities" are afraid to stray from the norm for fear of rejection. You can't become a big name in Christianity by bucking the system. Example, I heard of a pastor who went to Russia to minister. He was supported financially by his church. However, while in Russia during his studies he came to the knowledge that his church was teaching doctrines that weren't Biblical. When he talked with the church leaders about it they cut off his funding leaving him in Russia having to find his own way home. So if you buck the system you're not going to get far.

    Another problem is that after spending who knows how many thousands of dollars on a seminary education a lot of these guys aren't willing to change. It would be a waste of their money.

    The bottom line is this. Logic trump people's opinions. Logic dictates that something that ends cannot continue on unending. The two are mutually exclusive. defining a word as both ending and not ending is a logical contradiction and an error. And, a person doesn't have to know a single thing about Greek to see that.
     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I have before by quoting from BDAG, LSJ etc. but to no avail.

    And we could change the pronouns and it would be just as valid or invalid , as the case may be.

    "I have beliefs, a theology that guides my understanding of the Bible. The theology also drives my translations and other works."
    Including you.

    One example does not a consensus make.

    "Nearly 60 percent of evangelical leaders have changed denominations since childhood, according to the December Evangelical Leadership Survey."
    https://www.nae.net/changing-denominations-common-among-evangelical-leaders/
    Another broad brush statement which could apply equally to yourself.


    Your unsupported biased opinion. The Hebrew words olam/ad and Greek words aion/ionios are used to refer to something/someone that is not eternal. But the words are NEVER "defined" in scripture as something less than eternal. Here is the Merriam-Webster definition of "define."

    1a : to determine or identify the essential qualities or meaning of whatever defines us as human
    b : to discover and set forth the meaning of (something, such as a word) how the dictionary defines "grotesque"
    Can you show me any occurrence of any of these words where they are described by other adjectives or adjectival phrase as in the two following examples.
    Isa 51:6
    [11](6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
    In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to the adjectival phrase, “shall not be abolished”, “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “shall not be abolished,” “eternal” does.
    Luke 1:33
    (33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
    In this verse the reign, βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.”
    “Aionas” is defined by the adjectival phrase "there shall be no end," by definition, "aionas" here means eternal.



     
  12. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Indeed. As I mentioned to you privately, I would love to believe in Annihilationism, but it is difficult to prove from scripture, and at the very least the word of God suggests that the wicked will be tormented for a very long time after the millennium has ended. This is born out by Revelation 20:7-10:

    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (KJV reading)

    At first glance, the above translation (like others) suggests a reading of "and the Devil ... shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever," but a closer look at the Greek reveals that the verb is used in 3rd person plural, and thus yields the reading, "and they shall be tormented day and night forever and ever."

    The wording here is καὶ βασανισθήσονται ἡμέρας "and they shall be tormented/or tortured," not simply "punished" or "destroyed." But the question is: Who is the "they" here? Certainly it is not the Devil alone or the verb would be in the singular. It could merely be referring to the Antichrist and the False Prophet, but this does not at all fit the context. The passage is primarily about what will become of the nations after Satan gathers them for battle against the saints, so the logical conclusion is that the nations will be those who suffer torment day and night for ages to come:

    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And he shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    The only question remaining is exactly what sort of time frame is referred to by the expression "unto ages of ages," but it is certainly a long time. The church age alone has been just one age, and it has now lasted for more than two thousand years.

    Blessings in Christ, Friend Of, and thanks for posting the thread.
    Hidden
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  13. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Quoting BDAG isn't explaining why we should understand Jesus' words or any of the other passages in a figurative manner. That's part of the problem. For some reason you seem to think that these references are inspired, as if they couldn't possibly be wrong. Please explain why we should understand Jesus' statement of the end of the aion as a figure of speech.

    Neither one of these passages defines aion or olam either. They are simply put in apposition with the other phrase. You just assume that because God says his righteousness shall not be abolished that that statement mean it will last forever and then you use that to try to define aion or olam. However, that passage hasn't defined anything. Scripture can't define words. It takes a mind to define words.

    Your posting of Luke 1:33 shows me that you pay no attention to what has been said. I've already shown you how your use of this passage wrong. You claim that aion means Jesus' reign will be eternal because it's paired with, 'of His kingdom there shall be no end'. However, I've shown you plainly that He doesn't reign forever. Paul states plainly that after all things are complete Jesus turns the throne back over to the Father and the Father reigns forever.

    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
    (1 Cor. 15:24-28 KJV)

    Notice what Paul says, "he must reign til". Till is the same as until. That means His reign will end. As Paul said, He reigns till He has put all enemies under His feet. He goes on to say that at that time Christ will be subject to God. So just because, He reigns aion, is in appostion to, shall never end, doesn't mean that aion means eternal.

    Thank you for another example of aion used of a finite period of time.
     
  14. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    But it says the nations were devoured by fire from God. Then the devil was cast into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet are. It seems to me that this refers to those three and not the nations which were devoured. I'm glad to hear that you would like to believe in Anihilationism because that's what the Scriptures teach us. The reason for the confusion is some poorly translated passages and the presuppositions we bring to the text. The things that we were taught when we became a Christian and now just accept as fact. A lot of that is wrong. That's why in my earlier post I started with, what is a man? How we understand what a man is has a bearing on how we understand this subject.
     
  15. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You seem to think your unsupported opinion, assumptions and presuppositions are inspired, Yes, Jesus said "the end of the aion.." four times Matthew 13:19, 40, 49 and 28:20. But none of these verses define what "aion" means.
    Jesus also said

    John 6:58
    (58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.
    John 10:28
    (28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
    John 3:15
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
    John 3:16
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
    John 5:24
    (24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

    John 8:51
    (51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."
    According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ ου μη/ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying whoever obeys Him will die, i.e. see death, unto the age, by definition aion means eternity.
    For your edification I use the universally accepted meaning of "define," vs. private meaning devised to support one's assumptions/presuppositions.

    Merriam-Webster definition of "define."
    1a : to determine or identify the essential qualities or meaning of whatever defines us as human
    b : to discover and set forth the meaning of (something, such as a word) how the dictionary defines "grotesque"
    See dictionary definition of "define" above. Also for your edification the dictionary meaning of "apposition."

    "a relationship between two or more words or phrases in which the two units are grammatically parallel and have the same referent (e.g. my friend Sue ; the first US president, George Washington)."
    Please note apposition "the two units are grammatically parallel and have the same referent."
    Jesus is Lord not Paul. I interpret Paul and other NT writer's writing to agree with Jesus' words. Instead of the wrong way around i.e. twisting the words of Jesus to agree with one's private interpretation of Paul et al. You ought to try that.
    Wrong! See the meaning of "apposition," above. "the two units are grammatically parallel and have the same referent."
    As usual you have cherry picked a verse which in isolation seems to support your assumptions/presuppositions

    Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    Revelation 22:3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.
    ...
    Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  16. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Blessings in Christ.

    It's a decent point, especially if the stress is laid on those cast in, since it's mentioned of those three in particular (Revelations 19:19-21). But now, you are admitting by this position then that the Antichrist and False Prophet will be two exceptions to the rule, and potentially suffer torment forever despite being human, yes? The use of the composite phrase εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων is used (or at least appears to be used) only in the truly eternal sense in the NT.
     
  17. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You say "quoting BDAG is not explaining why we should understand Jesus' words etc" as a figure of speech. Showing that you don't have the slightest idea what BDAG is and what it says. Here is a link to an earlier edition of BAGD online, where you can verify what I say. Scroll down to "aijwvn"
    A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker
    Unlike folks like you, real scholars don't just make up definitions to fit their assumptions/presuppositions, they actually study.
    If a scholar authored a book with errors the scholastic community would expose it instantly. Let that sink in.
    The blue highlights are the sources, in addition to the scriptures, the scholars consulted to determine the definition.

    αἰώνιος (ία③ pert. to a period of unending duration, without end (Diod S 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 δόξα αἰ. everlasting fame; in Diod S 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their αἰ. οἴκησις; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ἐς μνήμην αἰ.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 αἰ. χάρις=a benefaction for all future time; OGI 383, 10 [I b.c.] εἰς χρόνον αἰ.; EOwen, οἶκος αἰ.: JTS 38, ’37, 248–50; EStommel, Domus Aeterna: RAC IV 109–28) of the next life σκηναὶ αἰ. Lk 16:9 (cp. En 39:5). οἰκία, contrasted w. the οἰκία ἐπίγειος, of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. διαθήκη (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.; PsSol 10:4 al.) Hb 13:20. εὐαγγέλιον Rv 14:6; κράτος in a doxolog. formula (=εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας) 1 Ti 6:16. παράκλησις 2 Th 2:16. λύτρωσις Hb 9:12. κληρονομία (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; AcPl Ha 8, 21. αἰ. ἀπέχειν τινά (opp. πρὸς ὥραν) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cp. Job 40:28). Very often of God’s judgment (Diod S 4, 63, 4 διὰ τὴν ἀσέβειαν ἐν ᾅδου διατελεῖν τιμωρίας αἰωνίου τυγχάνοντα; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) κόλασις αἰ. (TestReub 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; κρίμα αἰ. Hb 6:2 (cp. κρίσις αἰ. En 104:5). θάνατος B 20:1. ὄλεθρον (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. πῦρ (4 Macc 12:12; GrBar 4:16.—SibOr 8, 401 φῶς αἰ.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (cp. 1QS 2:8). ἁμάρτημα Mk 3:29 (v.l. κρίσεως, κολάσεω, and ἁμαρτίας). On the other hand, of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d θεοῦ ζωὴ αἰ.; Diod S 8, 15, 3 life μετὰ τὸν θάνατον lasts εἰς ἅπαντα αἰῶνα; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3;PsSol PsSol 3:12; OdeSol 11:16c; JosAs 8:11 cod. A [p. 50, 2 Bat.]; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; SibOr 2, 336) in the Reign of God: ζωὴ αἰ. (Orig., C. Cels. 2, 77, 3) Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2f; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21; 6:22f; Gal 6:8; 1 Ti 1:16; 6:12; Tit 1:2; 3:7; 1J 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jd 21; D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also βασιλεία αἰ. 2 Pt 1:11 (ApcPt Rainer 9; cp. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Mel., P. 68, 493; OGI 569, 24 ὑπὲρ τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life δόξα αἰ. 2 Ti 2:10; 1 Pt 5:10 (cp. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.—SibOr 8, 410 φῶς αἰῶνιον). αἰώνιον βάρος δόξης 2 Cor 4:17; σωτηρία αἰ. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of unseen glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses τὰ μὴ βλεπόμενα αἰώνια 2 Cor 4:18.—χαρά IPhld ins; δοξάζεσθαι αἰωνίῳ ἔργῳ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186–201; JvanderWatt, NovT 31, ’89, 217–28 (J).—DELG s.v. αἰών. M-M. TW. Sv. [1]
    [1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 33–34). Chicago: University of Chicago Press
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
  18. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    LXX Psalms 148:6 ἔστησεν αὐτὰ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος· πρόσταγμα ἔθετο, καὶ οὐ παρελεύσεται.
    LXX Psalms 148:6 He has established them for ever, even for ever and ever: he has made an ordinance, and it shall not pass away.
    NIV Psalms 148:6 and he established them for ever and ever— he issued a decree that will never pass away.
    ASV Psalms 148:6 He hath also established them for ever and ever: He hath made a decree which shall not pass away.
    ESV Psalms 148:6 And he established them forever and ever; he gave a decree, and it shall not pass away.
    ISV Psalms 148:6 He set them in place to last forever and ever; he gave the command and will not rescind it.
     
  19. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In all honesty, Der Alter, I think Butch5 has an argument with the following:
    I noticed in Hebrews 1:8 that the writer uses εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος (in the singulars rather than the plurals) when speaking of the reign of the Son, and references how He will reign "for ever and ever" until the Father makes His enemies His footstool (Hebrews 1:13). Thus even the compound phrase appears (at least in the singulars, anyway) to reference a finite period of time.

    This doesn't prove Annihilationism, mind you, but it essentially makes disproving it all but impossible.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Parts of Psa 37 are often quoted out-of-context in an attempt to prove annihilationism but when read in-context it does not prove annihilationism at all.
    Psa 37:1 A Psalm of David. Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
    Psa 37:2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
    The evildoers are cut down like grass and wither like flowers, that is not annihilationism!
    Psa 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
    Evildoers will be cut off, i.e. cut down like grass vs. 2
    Psa 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
    The Israelites will not be diligently looking for the place of the evildoers in paradise. The evildoers place in this world will be empty, not annihilationism.
    Psa 37:14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
    Psa 37:15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.
    Evildoers have drawn their words and bent their bows, to attack Israel, but their bows will be broken, in this world, their own swords will enter their own hearts, in this world, not annihilationism!
    Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
    The wicked perish and their smoke consumes away, in this world. See previous verses. Not annihilationism.
    Psa 37:22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.
    Those that curse God shall be cut off, i.e. cut down like grass and wither like flowers, see vs. 2, above. Not annihilationism.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
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