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Featured Convince me of Annihilationism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by friend of, May 14, 2019.

  1. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Your statement here is one of the reasons I said that how we understand what a man is has bearing on this subject. What do you mean by hell?
     
  2. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    You are the one who made and continue to make the mistake. I'm still waiting for you to provide credible, verifiable evidence from a scholar knowledgeable in the field who supports your "logic?" Surely there must be a scholar somewhere, who believes as you do, who can prove from historical and lexical sources that all the currently available language resources are biased and wrong.
    Or is the only source we have are the unsupported opinions of anonymous amateurs online?
    You said, "It's called common sense. Something that ends cannot be unending." You also said your argument is "logical."
    Let us use your fallacious "logic" and "common sense" on the following verses.
    The word "world" cannot literally mean the entire planet earth because it refers to things that are not literally "the whole world" and "all the world."

    Matthew 16:26
    (26) What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? [Mark 8:36, Luke 9:25]
    Can a person literally inherit the "whole world?"
    1 John 5:19
    (19) We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
    Was "the whole world" literally under the control of the evil one?
    Revelation 12:9
    (9) The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
    Did Satan literally lead "the whole world" astray?
    Revelation 13:3
    (3) One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.
    Did "the whole world" literally follow the beast?
    Genesis 41:57 And all the world came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe everywhere.
    Did "all the world" literally buy grain from Egypt?
    Acts 17:6 But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some other believers before the city officials, shouting: "These men who have caused trouble all over the world have now come here,
    Did the disciples literally cause trouble "all over the world?"
    Acts 19:35 The city clerk quieted the crowd and said: "Fellow Ephesians, doesn't all the world know that the city of Ephesus is the guardian of the temple of the great Artemis and of her image, which fell from heaven?
    Did "all the world" literally know that Ephesus was the guardian of the pagan deity Artemis?
    Acts 24:5 "We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect.
    Was Paul literally stirring up riots "all over the world?"
    Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
    Did Caesar literally tax "all the world?"
    Acts 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth
    Did "all the world" literally worship the goddess Diana?
    Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
    Was the faith of the Romans literally spoken of throughout "the whole world?"
    This post does not prove anything about the words "aion"/"aionios," nor is it intended to, but it does prove that your stated/demonstrated "logic" and "common sense" is fallacious.

     
  3. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    So again, you fail to address the evidence and instead try to post more passages you think support your claim. Some of the passages you post are hyperbole, sure, and some are from their perspective, sure. But showing figures of speech doesn't support your argument. Your claim is that aion means eternal and not a finite period of time. The evidence from Scripture clearly shows that aion is used of finite periods of time. I've asked you repeatedly to show how the phrase Jesus used is a figure of speech. You've declined to do so. You can't claim it's a figure of speech and then refuse to say how. Two mutually exclusive concepts are not hyperbole. Again, logic doesn't change. Two mutually exclusive terms cannot both be true at the same time, it's called the Law of Noncontradiction.
     
  4. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <B5>So again, you fail to address the evidence and instead try to post more passages you think support your claim. Some of the passages you post are hyperbole, sure, and some are from their perspective, sure. But showing figures of speech doesn't support your argument. Your claim is that aion means eternal and not a finite period of time. The evidence from Scripture clearly shows that aion is used of finite periods of time. I've asked you repeatedly to show how the phrase Jesus used is a figure of speech. You've declined to do so. You can't claim it's a figure of speech and then refuse to say how. Two mutually exclusive concepts are not hyperbole. Again, logic doesn't change. Two mutually exclusive terms cannot both be true at the same time, it's called the Law of Noncontradiction.<B5>
    Please show me where one verse determines the meaning of any word in Greek, English or any languages? I won't hold my breath because I already know the answer. I have learned 4 languages and quite a bit in two others, in my life.
    .....Let us see if your "logic/common sense" works in English? Suppose someone immigrates to the U.S. from another country and knows very little English. When someone says "hand" or '"house'" how will they understand it? Are they nouns or verbs? Do they always, only mean the one thing?
    A point of information "eternal" is an adjective and "age(s) is a noun.
    Jesus Himself used the word αἰών/aion where He defines it as eternal

    Matthew 12:32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age [αἰών] or in the one to come."
    In this verse Jesus contrasts αἰών with not being forgiven. Is "age" opposite of "not being forgiven?" In this verse aion by definition means eternal.
    Mark 3:29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit can never [εις τον αιωνα/eis ton aiona] be forgiven, but is guilty of eternal [αιωνιου] sin."
    This is verse is about blaspheming the Holy Spirit, as in Mat 12:32. denying forgiveness cannot be eternal in one verse and age(s) long in another.
    John 3:16
    (16) For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] life.
    In this verse Jesus has paired αιωνιον/aionion with "shall not perish." "Aionion is defined as eternal.
    John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    In this verse [αιωνιον] life is paired with "never perish" and "[not] pluck them out of my hand." "age(s)" is not opposite of "'never perish' and '[not] pluck them out of my hand.'" In this verse "Aion" is defined as "eternal."
    John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal [αἰών]
    In this verse Jesus has contrasted αἰών with "he who loves His life shall lose it" "age(s) is not opposite losing one's life. "Aion" in this verse is defined as "eternal."
    Would Jesus use "aionios" to mean eternal in these verses then use it to literally mean a finite period?
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
  5. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Ok, that's enough of this nonsense. Yet again you make the same argument. Did you even notice that you used a passage that speaks of this aion and the one to come. Once again, if an aion ends it's not eternal. When you renounce the use of reason there is nothing left.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
  6. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You'll get no argument from me on that note, sir.

    Let's talk about the 1st resurrection. I believe we are both in agreeance that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is speaking about the "first phase" of the 1st resurrection, (Pre-trib Rapture) correct? In post #68, you outlined that the 1st resurrection occurs in 2 stages, to which I agree partially with your description of (a):

    To recap, 1 Thess 4:17 occurs and all saints resting in Christ of old, and all saints awaiting Christ at present are abruptly caught up to be with the Lord always. This is spiritual but also bodily and this also means that they are alive in every sense of the word, transformed and given immortal bodies. This means they are no longer dead, but have been translated from death to life. We then go with the Lord and stay with Him, wherever He may be, until the Great Tribulation on earth has ended (presumably 7-years after this rapture). That's part (a) of the first resurrection.

    I am curious as to where you derive the idea of a "Mid-Trib rapture" from in scripture, as I believe scripture only supports the occurrence of a singular "catching away" at the commencement of the first half of Tribulation (contrasted with the Great Tribulation occuring in the last 3.5 years of AC reign) and the idea that there will be an additional rapture is unsubstantiated, but feel free to state your case for it. The Mid-Trip rapture, to my understanding, is martyrdom.

    The only way for Christians to be saved during this time period is to reject the Beast and to be martyred for the cause of Christ (if/when deathly persecution comes for them), which will end them up somewhere in the heavenlies asking the Lord "how long" Revelation 6:10. Although we do know that a remnant of Israel will be protected at Petra when the AC invades the holy land during the latter half of the GT, it is possible that the Christian religion will be all but removed on a global scale at such a time during the first half of Tribulation when we factor in rapture.

    One thing to be inferred by Luke 18:8 is that when the Lord returns to commence MK, physical living Christians on planet earth will be extraordinarily rare and possibly comprised by only the enclave of Jewish converts protected at Petra, whom the Lord will reveal Himself to during the GT. And I'm reasonably certain there are more ways than beheading to martyr a Christian for their testimony of Jesus Christ. So if 1 Thess 4:17 states: "and so shall we ever be with the Lord" I see no justification presented in this thread to ignore that scripture and presume that we will not be there with Him at His second coming.

    To my understanding, we have now arrived at the problem with your interpretation; those of the rapture (as per 1 Thess 4:17) are not dead. Those of the rapture must be present at the first resurrection because that is the resurrection unto LIFE. If these saints were to resurrect after the MK they would be participating in the resurrection unto damnation.

    Those of the first resurrection are called blessed and holy. The second death has no power over them. This implies that the second death will have power over those of the second resurrection. Therefore, it can only be talking about the wicked. Rev 20:5 is continuing on about Rev 20:4. When it says "the rest of the dead" it is speaking about those who worshipped the Beast and took its mark. Those who are beheaded and killed for their witness of Christ must be resurrected, otherwise how would they be present during the 1000 year reign, as per Rev 20:4?

    The return of those martyred for their testimony during Tribulation makes up part (b) of the first resurrection, completing the first resurrection. There is no part (c) of the first resurrection occuring after the 1000 year reign for the righteous who were aroused from soul sleep and caught away in 1 Thess 4:17 because they are no longer considered dead. In order to make what you're saying work, you need to adopt the position that those of the rapture somehow die again in order to be resurrected after 1000 year reign.

    In addition, these saints are not they who must be tried in the furnace of affliction to have their faith tested again, as they are the saints who believed the Gospel unto salvation before the Tribulation occured.

    Correct. It comes after the 1000 year reign. For if the second resurrection does not come after the 1000 year reign, then where is it supposed to chronologically occur, according to scripture, in your view? Post Rev 22? I don't think so.


    In any case, I hope I've laid out mine. Sorry for late reply. I look forward to your (as always) well reasoned response. I suppose I could be wrong and missing something. Forgive me for my tenacity. May you be blessed abundantly in the Lord this week.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2019
  7. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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  8. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    All you saw were the words "this aion and the next" and ignored the rest of the verse. Want to try again and see if you can get it right next time?
    Matthew 12:32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age αἰών or in the one to come."
    In this verse Jesus contrasts αἰών with not being forgiven. Is "age" opposite of "not being forgiven?" In this verse aion by definition means eternal.
    Just in case you are laboring under a false assumption. You may think that I'm trying to convince you of something. I have been active on this forum for about 2 decades. I was even on staff for about 5 years. I became aware early on that hard core heterodox believers are next to impossible to reach. So, although I respond to individuals, my primary objective is to reach people on the fence thinking about joining or leaving heterodox religious groups.
     
  9. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    You'd think after two decades you'd see that aion doesn't mean eternal. However, your argument here is a non sequitur. Yet another logical fallacy. I don't expect you to change your mind. As you said, I'm just here for the lurkers and those who may follow the thread. It's for them that I point out the logical fallacies in your argument. Those who are willing to look at things logically can see the errors in your argument.

    It's a non sequitur, it doesn't follow. You're reading your theology into the passage. You're assuming that 'not forgiven' equates to eternity and you're reading that back into aion. It doesn't follow. Jesus said it wouldn't be forgiven in this age or the one to come. It's pretty straight forward.
     
  10. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <B5>You'd think after two decades you'd see that aion doesn't mean eternal. However, your argument here is a non sequitur. Yet another logical fallacy. I don't expect you to change your mind. As you said, I'm just here for the lurkers and those who may follow the thread. It's for them that I point out the logical fallacies in your argument. Those who are willing to look at things logically can see the errors in your argument.
    It's a non sequitur, it doesn't follow. You're reading your theology into the passage. You're assuming that 'not forgiven' equates to eternity and you're reading that back into aion. It doesn't follow. Jesus said it wouldn't be forgiven in this age or the one to come. It's pretty straight forward.<B5>

    I had to take a few days off I had an appointment with some specialists who wanted to see what the inside of my colon looked like. But now back to normal, more or less.
    .....I knew this argument would be coming and I almost posted my rebuttal in the post. You very evidently do not know what a "non-sequitur" or "logical fallacy" is. You have not shown or proved either one.

    Logical fallacy: "In a broad sense, all logical fallacies are nonsequiturs—arguments in which in which a conclusion doesn't follow logically from what preceded it."
    Matthew 12:32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age αἰών or in the one to come."
    .....In this verse when will the person who blasphemes the Holy Spirit be forgiven? Did Jesus say or imply that such a person would be forgiven in the second or subsequent aion after the then current aion, whatever He meant by that? If not then there must be an eternity in there somewhere. Unless you can show me a verse which states that a person who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will be saved.
    .....Let us remember that Jesus used the word "aion" to mean eternal, everlasting at least six times in other verses.

    [1]John 6:58
    (58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [2]John 10:28
    (28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
    [3]John 3:15
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [
    αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
    [4]John 3:16
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [
    αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
    [5]John 5:24
    (24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [
    αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
    [6]John 8:51
    (51) Very truly [
    αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."
    According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ ου μη/ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying whoever obeys Him will die, i.e. see death, unto the age, by definition aion means eternity.

     
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
  11. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    It's good that your health is good.

    It's funny though that whenever someone points out a logical fallacy in your argument, your reply is that they must not know what a logical fallacy is. Not only do I know what they are I've shown how you use them to attempt to make aion seem to mean eternal.

    Instead of addressing the fallacy though you run right back to the same old argument that has been shown false. You post a few passages where Jesus puts aion in apposition with something you believe is eternal and therefore aion must mean eternal. The problem with that argument, as I have shown, is that the Scriptures also put aion in apposition with things that are not eternal. Since logic dictates that eternal and not eternal are mutually exclusive it cannot mean both. And since an aion can end it obviously can't mean eternity. Thus the reason it was translated as age.

    Regarding your above statement, it can be seen that you're reading your theology into your definition.

    You said:

    "Did Jesus say or imply that such a person would be forgiven in the second or subsequent aion after the then current aion, whatever He meant by that? If not then there must be an eternity in there somewhere. Unless you can show me a verse which states that a person who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will be saved."

    Your claim is that since Jesus didn't say or imply that such a person would be forgiven in a subsequent aion, aion must mean etneral. But again, you're committing a fallacy. Just because Jesus doesn't mention a subsequent aion doesn't mean that there won't be one or that forgiveness wouldn't happen in it. He specifically mentions two aions and no more. So, your argument is an argument from silence.

    Why is it a Logical Fallacy to Make an Argument from Silence? | Radically Christian
     
  12. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Heb_12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

    G2654
    ?ata?a??´s??
    katanalisko¯
    kat-an-al-is'-ko
    From G2596 and G355; to consume utterly: - consume.

    compare that to this:


    Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    G622
    a?p?´???µ?
    apollumi
    ap-ol'-loo-mee
    From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.


    to consume utterly
    to destroy fully


    Both speak about fire which can fully destroy/consume something...the fire of a star is very hot, but that man can recreate the same temperatures in welding makes me think the fire of "hell" is something far stronger/hotter.




    Fire represents a destructive force. This lake of fire won't be normal fire as we can create ourselves. I believe it to be God himself since God is a consuming fire. So God can create something, and can uncreate something as well. I believe the lake of fire is simply an uncreating process described in a way simple so people could understand it's basic function- destruction.



    There was a time none of us existed. God has decided that the bad, wicked, evil etc etc of us should return to that non-existence. There is a fire which is unlike any fire man knows which will be used to destroy souls which essentially and definitively uncreates them.

    Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.


    There is only one kind of eternal life, and that is with God as overcomers judged to life. Those judged to death on judgment day, which is called the second death, will not have eternal life in hell or torment. Their punishment is death and that punishment will last for all eternity. They shall not live eternally in agony because they shall not have eternal life of any kind.




    Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Don't assume “day and night forever and ever” is literal:

    Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
    Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
    Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

    Isaiah uses similar language concerning Edom and Edom is not still burning. This is an intentional exaggeration and should be understood in that way just as Rev 20:10 should be.

    Another example:

    Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

    Not literally forever of course. It simply means "a long time", ie: the rest of his life, an intentional exaggeration.

    Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning therefore this eternal fire does not imply the target burns eternally but that this fire exists eternally whether it has something to burn or not and since God is a consuming fire it makes sense that it is eternal because God is eternal. Remember that this fire isn't actual fire. The word fire is used because it's the closest way for us to have any chance to understand the destructive nature and result of this "fire".



    And look at how many scriptures refute the idea of eternal life in hell fire:



    "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.

    "He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11

    "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14,15.

    "The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved." Psalm 75:3.

    "Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more." Psalm 104:35.

    "Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be." Psalm 59:13.

    "The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalm 145:20

    "When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: Psalm 92:7

    "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be as stubble; and the day cometh that shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1

    "And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed." Isaiah 1:28

    "Enter ye in at the straight gate: for wide is the fate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat." Matthew 7:13

    "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalms 37:20

    Judgment is a decision to reward or punish someone. The judgement/punishment for sin is death (Romans 6:23), which is also called the second death (Rev 21:8), and that judgement/punishment is written to be eternal/everlasting (Mark 3:29, Hebrews 6:2). So, eternal punishment is an eternal death.



    Two things happen to the wicked. First they will die the second death which means soul and body dies and then their soul and body shall be destroyed.


    Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


    Here we have death of the soul likened to destruction of the soul. One cannot be destroyed without dying so the two go hand in hand. While the Greek word here can mean several things, we know from other scriptures esp. the OT which has only one meaning for "destruction" being literal destruction, that this word here means:

    apollumi
    Thayer Definition:
    1)to destroy
    1a)to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
    1)to destroy
    1b)render useless
    1c)to kill
    1d)to declare that one must be put to death
    1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
    1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
    2) to destroy
    2a) to lose
    Part of Speech: verb
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and the base of G3639
    Citing in TDNT: 1:394, 67



    Psalms 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.

    The verb above is in the Hiphil tense:
    H8045
    ????
    sha^mad
    BDB Definition:
    1) to destroy, exterminate, be destroyed, be exterminated
    1a) (Niphal)
    1a1) to be annihilated, be exterminated
    1a2) to be destroyed, be devastated
    1b) (Hiphil)
    1b1) to annihilate, exterminate
    1b2) to destroy
    Part of Speech: verb
    A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
    Same Word by TWOT Number: 2406




    Lets use the same logic some apply. We know that our preservation by the Lord shall be eternal, known as salvation or eternal life then the opposite for the wicked would be eternal death and destruction right? Not to be preserved to suffer eternal torture!



    Isaiah 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
    Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.


    Here the same concept. All sinners judged and consumed at the same time which cannot be anything other than the final judgement.


    The punishment for sin is death (Romans 6:23), which is also called the second death (Rev 20, 21), and that judgement/decision (also called damnation) is written to be eternal/everlasting (Mark 3:29, Hebrews 6:2).


    Psalms 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:


    Some teach that God will not do as he says.


    Psalms 37:16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.
    Psalms 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
    Psalms 37:18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
    Psalms 37:19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
    Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

    Do they perish, consumed away in smoke or do they live forever in torture?? Scripture is clear!


    Psalms 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.


    Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.


    Isaiah 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
    Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

    Isaiah 1:29 For they shall be ashamed of the oaks which ye have desired, and ye shall be confounded for the gardens that ye have chosen.
    Isaiah 1:30 For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water.
    Isaiah 1:31 And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.



    2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;



    Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
    Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


    Jeremiah 6:27 I have set thee for a tower and a fortress among my people, that thou mayest know and try their way.
    Jeremiah 6:28 They are all grievous revolters, walking with slanders: they are brass and iron; they are all corrupters.
    Jeremiah 6:29 The bellows are burned, the lead is consumed of the fire; the founder melteth in vain: for the wicked are not plucked away.
    Jeremiah 6:30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.

    Why are they wicked?

    Jeremiah 6:27 I have set thee for a tower and a fortress among my people, that thou mayest know and try their way.
    Jeremiah 6:28 They are all grievous revolters, walking with slanders: they are brass and iron; they are all corrupters.
    Jeremiah 6:29 The bellows are burned, the lead is consumed of the fire; the founder melteth in vain: for the wicked are not plucked away.
    Jeremiah 6:30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.



    They are corrupt and God has rejected them.


    Psalms 37:16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.
    Psalms 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.
    Psalms 37:18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
    Psalms 37:19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.
    Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.



    The righteous ones will be saved but those unrighteous will be consumed away.


    2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    They wouldn't receive the truth to be saved so they shall be destroyed!

    2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    2 Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


    Those that had pleasure in unrighteousness and received not the truth shall perish and be damned.


    Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

    1) correction, punishment, penalty

    The lexicon there says the word punishment in this verse means "correction, punishment, penalty" not firery torment. As I have been saying, the kind of "correction, punishment, penalty" inflicted is unnamed in this verse but is given many places elsewhere as both death and destruction.



    The righteous are not sinless but they repent and love God and believe upon Christ and that is counted righteous and though all are wicked in some sense, it is only those who love unrighteousness, who do not love God, who don't repent and don't follow Christ that shall be destroyed.


    Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.



    The way to destruction is wide and many will be destroyed. FEW will find the way to life.



    Heb_2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

    Even the devil will be destroyed.

    Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
    Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

    He will be devoured by fire, turned to ashes and shall never exist anymore. That's Annihilation.
     
  13. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    No, zero, none on the 24 verses I listed are a logical fallacy
    While you have made some weak arguments about my posts I don't recall you ever showing me exactly how anything I said is a logical fallacy. Even after I posted the definition of a logical fallacy.
    You claim the scripture also puts "aion in apposition with things that are not eternal." That is false. Jesus says three times in Matt. "the end of the aion." But that is not apposition.
    "a grammatical construction in which two usually adjacent nouns having the same referent stand in the same syntactical relation to the rest of a sentence (such as the poet and Burns in 'a biography of the poet Burns')."
    For apposition you need another noun which refers to "aion" and you don't have it.
    But as I have explained repeatedly we see a similar phenomenon in many things Jesus said. Herod was not literally a fox when Jesus called him one. James and John were not literally sons of thunder when Jesus called them that. Simon was not literally a stone when Jesus called him that.
    Then we have 15 verses where "whole world"/"all the world" refers to something which cannot be the entire planet earth.
    So if I use your flawed reasoning "the whole world"/"all the world'" never literally mean the entire planet because 15 times it refers to something which is not literally the whole planet.
    It might behoove you to read this book by E.W. Bullinger, "Figures of Speech Used in the Bible."
    http://www.charleswelch.net/figuresofspeechbullinger.pdf
     
  14. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    This post is far too long to address everything. I don't have the time or inclination to address everything so I will pick a few of the most glaring errors.
    What God created He can destroy but there is not one verse which says that God has or will destroy even one soul in hell or anywhere else.


    Long answer, see next post.
    This is a favorite that annihilationists like to quote out-of-context. Let's examine this verse in more context.

    Psa 37:1 A Psalm of David. Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
    Psa 37:2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.
    The evildoers are cut down like grass and wither like flowers, that is not annihilationism!
    Psa 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
    Evildoers will be cut off, i.e. cut down like grass vs. 2
    Psa 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
    The Israelites will not be looking for the place of the evildoers in paradise. The evildoer's place in this world will be empty, not annihilationism.
    Psa 37:14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
    Psa 37:15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.
    Evildoers have drawn their words and bent their bows, to attack Israel, but their bows will be broken, in this world, their own swords will enter their own hearts, in this world, not annihilationism!
    Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
    The wicked perish and their smoke consumes away, in this world. See previous verses.
    Psa 37:22 For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.
    Those that curse God shall be cut off, i.e. cut down like grass and wither like flowers, see vs. 2, above.

    Let's see how the Jews understood Isaiah in their Hebrew scriptures.
    …..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
    …..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

    Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
    The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
    [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]
    (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

    Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
    =================
    Encyclopedia Judaica:
    Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

    …..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; )
    Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
    In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
    Gehinnom
    = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
     
  15. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <EWG>...
    Here we have death of the soul likened to destruction of the soul. One cannot be destroyed without dying so the two go hand in hand. While the Greek word here can mean several things, we know from other scriptures esp. the OT which has only one meaning for "destruction" being literal destruction, that this word here means:
    apollumi
    Thayer Definition:
    1)to destroy
    1a)to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
    1)to destroy
    1b)render useless
    1c)to kill
    1d)to declare that one must be put to death
    1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
    1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
    2) to destroy
    2a) to lose
    Part of Speech: verb
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and the base of G3639
    Citing in TDNT: 1:394, 67.
    ..<EWG>
    ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 79%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.
    (1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].
    Here is the definition of apollumi from BDAG, one of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons available
    ἀπόλλυμι for its conjug. s. B-D-F §101 (s.v. ὄλλυμι); W-S. §14, 18; Rob. 317; fut. ἀπολέσω Hs 8, 7, 5; Att. ἀπολῶ 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14; ParJer 1:1, 8); 1 aor. ἀπώλεσα; 1 pf. ἀπολώλεκα. Mid.: fut. ἀπολοῦμαι Lk 13:3; 2 aor. ἀπωλόμην; the 2 pf. ἀπόλωλα functions as a pf. mid.; ptc. ἀπολωλώς (Hom.+).
    ① to cause or experience destruction
    ⓐ act.ruin, destroy
    α. of pers. (Sir 10:3) Mk 1:24; Lk 4:34. W. ref. to eternal destruction μὴ ἐκεῖνον ἀπόλλυε do not bring about his ruin ton 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of Ro 14:15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4; Esth 9:6 v.l.; 1 Macc 2:37; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 122; Mel., P. 84, 635 [Ch.] τὸν ἐχθρόν σου) Hs 9, 26, 7. παιδίον Mt 2:13; Jesus 12:14; 27:20; Mk 3:6; 11:18; Lk 19:47; B 12:5; the wicked tenants κακοὺς κακῶς ἀ. (s. κακός 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41. τοὺς γεωργούς Mk 12:9; Lk 20:16; τ. φονεῖς Mt 22:7; τ. μὴ πιστεύσαντας those who did not believe Jd 5; πάντας Lk 17:27, 29. W. σῶσαι (like Charito 2, 8,1) Js 4:12: H9, 3, 4. eternal death (Herm. Wr. 4, 7; Tat. 11:2 ἀπώλεσεν ἡμᾶς τὸ αὐτέξουσιον) ψυχὴν κ. σῶμα ἀ. ἐν γεέννῃ Mt 10:28; ψυχήν B 20:1; τ. ψυχάς Hs 9, 26, 3 (cp. Sir 20:22).
    β. w. impers. obj. ἀ. τ. σοφίαν τ. σοφῶν destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14). ἀ. τ. διάνοιαν destroy the understanding Hm 11:1 (cp. Just., D. 93, 1 τὰς φυσικὰς ἐννοίας).
    γ. without obj. J 10:10.
    ⓑ mid. perish, be ruined
    α. of pers. perish, die (schol. on Nicander, Ther. 188 ἀπόλλυται ὁ ἀνήρ=the man dies; Tat. 21, 2 τοὺς ἀνθρώπους … ἀπόλλυσθαι) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1f. As a cry of anguish ἀπολλύμεθα we are perishing! (Epict. 2, 19, 16 [in a storm-tossed vessel]; PPetr II, 4 [1], 4f νυνὶ δὲ ἀπολλύμεθα) Mt 8:25; Mk 4:38; Lk 8:24 (Arrian, Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ἐν μαχαίρῃ ἀ. die by the sword Mt 26:52. λιμῷ of hunger (Ezk 34:29) Lk 15:17. τῇ ἀντιλογίᾳ τοῦ Κόρε Jd 11c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cp. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). ὑπό τινος (Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13 [7], 12) ὑπὸ τ. ὄφεων killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9; cp. vs. 10. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50. Of individuals (Lev 23:30) Ac 5:37; 2 Pt 3:9; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20).—Esp. of eternal death (cp. Ps 9:6f; 36:20; 67:3; 72:27; 82:18; 91:10; Is 41:11) J 3:16; 17:12. ἀπολέσθαι εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 ἡμεῖς ἀπολλύμενοι τὸν αἰῶνα). ἀνόμως ἀ. Ro 2:12; μωρῶς ἀ. IEph 17:2 (cp. ἀσκόπως Just., D. 8, 4); ἐν καυχήσει because of boasting ITr 4:1; cp. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11; 15:18; 2 Cl 17:1.—οἱ ἀπολλύμενοι (opp. οἱ σῳζόμενοι, as in Plut., Mor. 469d) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18; 2 Cor 2:15; 4:3; 2 Th 2:10; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this τὸ ἀπολωλός Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:10 v.l.—Ezk 34:4, 16). τὰ ἀπολλύμενα 2 Cl 2:7 (cp. SIG 417, 9 τὰ τε ἀπολωλότα ἐκ τ. ἱεροῦ ἀνέσωσαν). S. also 3b end.
    β. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined (Jos., Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem; Tat. 17, 2 πάθος … ἀπολλύμενον) of bursting wineskins Mt 9:17; Mk 2:22; Lk 5:37; fading beauty Js 1:11; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7. AcPl Ha 2, 24; [χρυσὸς]| γὰρ ἀπόλλυται 9:8f; passing splendor Rv 18:14 (w. ἀπό as Jer 10:11; Da 7:17). Of earthly food J 6:27; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5; σαρκὸς ἀπολλυμένης AcPlCor 2:15. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6). μὴ … τὸ μνημόσυνον [ὑμῶν]| ἀπόλιτε (read ἀπόληται) AcPl Ha 1, 22f.
    to fail to obtain what one expects or anticipates, lose out on, lose (X., Pla.+; PPetr III, 51, 5; POxy 743, 23; PFay 111, 3ff; Sir 6:3; 9:6; 27:16 al.; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14; Tat. 8, τὸν ἐρώμενον; 15, 1) τ. μισθόν lose the reward Mt 10:42; Mk 9:41; Hs 5, 6, 7. δραχμήν (Dio Chrys. 70 [20], 25) Lk 15:8f; ἀ. ἃ ἠργασάμεθα lose what we have worked for 2J 8. διαθήκην B 4:7, 8. τὴν ζωὴν τ. ἀνθρώπων Hm 2:1; cp. Hs 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2f and 5. τὴν ἐλπίδα m 5, 1, 7.
    to lose someth. that one already has or be separated from a normal connection, lose, be lost
    ⓐ act. w. colloq. flavor ἵνα πᾶν ὃ δέδωκέν μοι μή ἀπολέσω ἐξ αὐτοῦ that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 (B-D-F §466, 3 on Semitic assoc.; Rob. 437; 753).—ἀ. τὴν ψυχήν (cp. Sir 20:22) lose one’s life Mt 10:39; 16:25; Mk 8:35; Lk 9:24; 17:33; cp. J 12:25. For this ἀ. ἑαυτόν lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus [VII b.c.], Fgm. 8 Diehl2 lines 11–14: ‘One who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
    ⓑ mid. (Antiphon: Diels, Vorsokrat. 87, Fgm. 54 ἀπολόμενον ἀργύριον; X., Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3; Tat. 9, 2) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18; Ac 27:34; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29f; remnants of food J 6:12. Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.— Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6; 15:24; Lk 15:4, 6; B 5:12 (cp. Jer 27:6; Ezk 34:4; Ps 118:176). Of a lost son Lk 15:24 (Artem. 4, 33 ἡ γυνὴ … τ. υἱὸν ἀπώλεσε καὶ … εὗρεν αὐτόν); of humanity in general ἀπολλύμενος ἐζητήθη ἵνα ζωοποιηθῇ διὰ τῆς υἱοθεσίας when lost, humanity was sought, so that it might regain life through acceptance into sonship AcPlCor 2:8 (cp. 1bα.—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). ἀ. θεῷ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4 (cod. A for ἀπέθανον).—B. 758. DELG s.v. ὄλλυμι. M-M. TW.[1]

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., pp. 115–116). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
     
  16. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <EWG>...
    Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
    Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
    Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
    Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
    Not literally forever of course. It simply means "a long time", ie: the rest of his life, an intentional exaggeration.
    "When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: Psalm 92:7
    Psalms 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
    ...<EWG>
    …..Thirty seven [37] OT verses where the word “olam” corresponds to or is contrasted with adjectives and adjectival phrases which describe/define the word “olam” as eternal, everlasting etc.
    Exodus 3:15
    (15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever,[עולם/olam] and this is my memorial unto all generations.
    In this vs. “name olam” corresponds to “unto all generations.” “Age(s),”a finite period, does not correspond to “unto all generations,”“for ever” does.
    Psalms 21:4
    (4) He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[עד/ad]
    In this vs. “olam” and “ad” corresponds to “length of days”. “Age(s),” a finite period, does not correspond to length of days, “for ever and ever” does.
    Psalms 45:17
    (17) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever [עולם/olam] and ever:[עד/ad]
    In this vs. “olam” and “ad” corresponds to “in all generations,” “Age(s),” a finite period, does not correspond to “in all generations,” “for ever and ever” does.
    Psa 33:11
    (11) The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, [ עולם] the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
    In this vs. “standeth olam” corresponds to “to all generations,”“age(s),” a finite period, does not correspond to “to all generations,” “for ever” does.
    Psa 146:10 The LORD will reign for ever, [עולם/olam] Thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Hallelujah.[“ all generations” also Ps 100:5, 106:31]
    In this vs. “reign olam” corresponds to “unto all generations,”“age(s),” a finite period, does not correspond to “to all generations,” “for ever” does.
    Psa 37:28
    (28) For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: [ עולם/olam] but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
    In this vs. “preserved olam” is contrasted to “the wicked shall be cut off,””age(s),”a finite period, is not opposite of “the wicked shall be cut off,” “for ever” is.
    Ecc 3:14
    (14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever:[ עולם] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
    In this vs. עולם/olam corresponds to. “nothing can be added or taken away” from God's acts. “Age(s),“a finite period, does not correspond to “nothing can be added or taken away” from God's acts, “for ever” does.
    Isa 51:6
    (6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
    In this vs. “salvation olam” corresponds to “shall not be abolished”, “age(s),” a finite period, does not correspond to “shall not be abolished,” “forever” is.
    Isa 51:8
    (8) For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my salvation from generation to generation.
    In this vs. “righteousness olam” corresponds to “from generation to generation” “age(s),”a finite period, does not correspond to “from generation to generation.” “for ever” does.
    Dan 7:14
    (14) He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting [ עולם] dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
    In this vs. “olam dominion” corresponds to “will not pass away” and “never be destroyed.” “Age(s),” a finite period, does not correspond to “will not pass away,””never be destroyed,” but “everlasting dominion” does.
    Jer 23:40
    (40) I will bring on you everlasting disgrace [ עולם]—everlasting shame [ עולם] that will not be forgotten."
    In this vs. “olam disgrace and shame” corresponds to “will not be forgotten.” “age(s) a finite period, does not correspond to “will not be forgotten,””everlasting” does.
    Jer 50:5
    (5) They will ask the way to Zion and turn their faces toward it. They will come and bind themselves to the LORD in an everlasting [ עולם] covenant that will not be forgotten.
    In this vs. “olam covenant” corresponds to “will not be forgotten,””age(s),” a finite period, does not correspond to “will not be forgotten,” ”everlasting” does.
    Exo 27:21
    (21) In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever [עולם/olam] unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.
    In this verse עולם/olam corresponds to “unto their generations.” “Age(s)” does not correspond to “unto their generations,” “for ever” does.
    Exo 30:21
    (21) So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever [עולם/olam] to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations.
    [“throughout their generations “ also Lev 10:9, 17:7, 23:14, 23:21, 23:41, Num 10:8, 15:15, 18:23, Psa 145;13, Ex 40:15, Lev 7:36][/indent]
    In this verse “statute עולם/olam” corresponds to “die not” and “throughout their generations.” “Age(s)” does not correspond to “die not” and “throughout their. Generations,” “forever” does.

    Psa 45:17
    (17) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[ עד/ad][“in all generations” also Ps 100:5, 106:31].
    In this verse עולם/olam and . עד/ad are corresponds with “in all generations.” “Age(s)” does not correspond to “in all generations,” “for ever and ever” does.
    Psa 148:6
    (6) He hath also stablished them for ever [עולם/olam] and ever:[ עד/ad] he hath made a decree which shall not pass.
    In this verse עולם/olam and עד/ad are corresponds to “shall not pass.” “Age(s)” does not correspond to “shall not pass.” “forever and ever” does.
    Isa 55:13
    (13) Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting [ עולם/olam] sign that shall not be cut off.”
    In this verse “ עולם/olam sign” corresponds with ”shall not be cut off.” “Age(s)” does not correspond to “shall not be cut off.” “everlasting does.
    [26]Isa 56:5
    (5) Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting [ עולם/olam] name, that shall not be cut off.
    In this verse “ עולם/olam name” corresponds to ”shall not be cut off.” “Age(s)” does not correspond to “shall not be cut off.” “everlasting” does.
    Jer 32:40
    (40) And I will make an everlasting “[עולם/olam] covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
    In this verse “עולם/olam covenant” corresponds to “I will not turn away” and ”they shall not depart from me.” “Age(s)” does not correspond to “I will not turn away” and “they shall not depart from me.” “everlasting” does.
    Jer 50:5
    (5) They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in a perpetual [עולם/olam] covenant that shall not be forgotten.
    In this verse “עולם/olam covenant” corresponds to ”shall not be forgotten” “Age(s)” does not correspond to “shall not be forgotten.” “perpetual covenant” does.
    Lam 5:19
    (19) Thou, O LORD, remainest for ever; “[עולם/olam] thy throne from generation to generation.
    In this verse “עולם/olam” corresponds to “from generation to generation.” “Age(s) does not correspond to “from generation to generation”, “for ever” does.
    Dan 4:3
    (3) How great are His signs! and how mighty are His wonders! His kingdom is an everlasting [עלם/alam] kingdom, and His dominion is from generation to generation.[עם־דר ודר/am-dor w’dor]
    In this verse [עלם/alam] corresponds to “from generation to generation.” “Age(s) does not correspond to “from generation to generation”, “for ever” does.
    Dan 4:34
    (34) And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, [עלם/alam] whose dominion is an everlasting [עלם/alam] dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
    In this verse [עלם/alam] corresponds to “from generation to generation.” “Age(s) does not correspond to “from generation to generation”, “for ever” does.
    Jer 10:10-11
    (10) But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal [עלם/alam] King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath.

    (11) "Tell them this: 'These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.'"
    In this passage the living God, the eternal [עלם/alam] King has been contrasted with false gods which perish “the Living God the age(s)” is not the opposite of false gods that perish, the living God, the eternal, is.
     
  17. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    *bump*
     
  18. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

    +1,671
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    Not sure why some are still talking. Seems both know they are right. The simple is. Anyone that did is will follow Satan will get the same reword. He can take one word and never have the same meaning again. Seen 4 words.. that He said "remember when Daniel prayed" He once asked.. I cant explain it. Those words just like exploded. Went so many different ways. SO strange. Some will know some wont.

    My point is. You look at this through mans eyes mans understanding. Look at it through GODS. We talk eternity, forever and forever. There is NO time there. You stand there. Might seem like thousands of years..yet only a moment. And some words that have been used so many times in Gods word. Unless your only quoting so and so. I am hard pressed (for some words) to say "it ONLY means". Well if you take the greater (meaning many peoples definition Greek/Hebrew) look at it vs what one or two people say. You find.. it seems to always mean..YET it might also can mean.

    I LOVE to make it simple. Gods word is so easy a Child and understand ALL of it. So many many times MAN is making those verse say something God never said. Always so strange to me how.. we cant just ask Him huh. We really need to get over this. Well our view is not His. And He is never going to ask us how we feel about this. Burn forever vs ..not sure.. there is no time there. Satan is not has not suffered at all for ALL of this. Man has. But GOD is no man. Where we wont let ALL suffer for just ones mistake. God does. One man takes something ALL will suffer. Theres a reason .. how many generations down the line did some have to pay the price for some sin? Then Adam and Eve ..here you and me are. Not the same but.

    Even if I know I am right.. I listen because I can be wrong (in talks like this). I try to see it through their eyes.
     
  19. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,476
    United States
    Baptist
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    <Bl>Not sure why some are still talking. Seems both know they are right. The simple is. Anyone that did is will follow Satan will get the same reword. He can take one word and never have the same meaning again. Seen 4 words.. that He said "remember when Daniel prayed" He once asked.. I cant explain it. Those words just like exploded. Went so many different ways. SO strange. Some will know some wont.
    My point is. You look at this through mans eyes mans understanding. Look at it through GODS. We talk eternity, forever and forever. There is NO time there. You stand there. Might seem like thousands of years..yet only a moment. And some words that have been used so many times in Gods word. Unless your only quoting so and so. I am hard pressed (for some words) to say "it ONLY means". Well if you take the greater (meaning many peoples definition Greek/Hebrew) look at it vs what one or two people say. You find.. it seems to always mean..YET it might also can mean.
    I LOVE to make it simple. Gods word is so easy a Child and understand ALL of it. So many many times MAN is making those verse say something God never said. Always so strange to me how.. we cant just ask Him huh. We really need to get over this. Well our view is not His. And He is never going to ask us how we feel about this. Burn forever vs ..not sure.. there is no time there. Satan is not has not suffered at all for ALL of this. Man has. But GOD is no man. Where we wont let ALL suffer for just ones mistake. God does. One man takes something ALL will suffer. Theres a reason .. how many generations down the line did some have to pay the price for some sin? Then Adam and Eve ..here you and me are. Not the same but.
    Even if I know I am right.. I listen because I can be wrong (in talks like this). I try to see it through their eyes.
    <Bl>
    "We can't just ask him..." People do pray about their understanding of the Bible but unfortunately some folks when they pray, the "answer" they get just happens to be whatever the particular denomination they belong to teaches.
    .....I'm fairly certain God is not telling one person/denomination e.g. "aion means eternal," and telling another person/denomination e.g. "aion never means eternal."
    .....Why am I still talking? I have been active at this forum for about 2 decades, in two different countries. I realized early on that hard core members of heterodox groups are almost unreachable so my aim here is to reach the people on the fringes thinking about joining or leaving such groups.
    ....I have been a Christian since Johnson was president, Lyndon not Andrew, and I have studied at the graduate level but I could be wrong. However, as I have stated many times on this and other forums, to convince me that I am wrong will require credible, verifiable, historical, lexical, grammatical etc. evidence and I rarely see that.
     
  20. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus said "...in this life or the next"

    This means there are only 2 ages (aka) anions. This one, and the one that comes after. Jesus does not suggest a third one. Therefore we can conclude that the second anion is an eternal one.
     
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