Converting "Mormons"

[happyinhisgrace]

Stating that I am (insert negative comment) is making a personal attack. It is not my feeling on the matter. It is an attack.

Similar to your own advice - if you don't like my comments then place me on Ignore. You lack the authority to command me to stop posting.

Like I said, if you have a problem with me, report it. You are wasting my time with your rediculous argument.

 

[Ran77]

There's an old Latin proverb that says: "Qui Tacet Consentit." It means "He who is silent, consents."

If you're not vocal about your opposition, it is as if you approve. That's why I bash mormonism.

It does not require bashing to demonstrate that you do not consent. There is a broad spectrum of vocal disagreement that is available. Of these you choose to bash. The reason you choose to bash rather than the other options is the real reason you bash mormonism.

 

[ZealouS]

It would seem that St. Paul has convicted all of us.

I made myself look like an idiot by posting that but God's word always makes me look like an idiot. So I am ok with it. Back to the stupid arguments and quarrels people!!

 

[Ran77]

Like I said, if you have a problem with me, report it. You are wasting my time with your rediculous argument.

Nope, no problem here. I was just pointing out to the general readership your living example of what I was discussing.

Its funny that I am wasting your time, but you still have chosen to spend the effort to respond to me. Am I somehow responsible for your decision to read and respond?

 

[arizona_sunshine]

It does when it takes away people from one faith into the new faith. For every new convert you win, you take a person out of Christianity. If that's not an attack, then I don't understand the meaning of the term.

You do have a different understanding of the term, especially when I chose to use the phrase 'direct attack'. There is no direct attack in approaching an individual and sharing a message. If the individual accepts the message into their own beliefs, regardless of the beliefs they held previously - there is no direct attack.

I have no problem disagreeing with you on this issue, but you will have to accept that you will not change my mind.

If you're friends and family were being converted through an aggressive proselyting campaign into Hinduism, you wouldn't have a problem with it?

This argument wont fly with me. I trust and expect my family members as well as anyone with mental capacity to pursue the faith to which the Spirit of God leads them. If that is Hinduism, I will respect their beliefs.

Did you know that it's actually against the Canon Law of the Roman Catholic Church to proselytize someone from another Christian denomination?

Since I do not recognize the authority of the RCC, this really has little relevence to my opinion.

Personally, I feel it is an unwise position. If the RCC claims the original authority from Christ Himself, if it claims to be the true church, they should be actively seeking to share their message to every person.

The two are inseparably connected. Why else do you think that you can go to any church service in the world, and it's as if you were still in Provo??

I dont believe that the Utah LDS culture is inseparably connected to the gospel. If it appears to be, that is the fault of our members, who are fallible human beings. Our devotion to the gospel of Christ has nothing to do with our propensity to don a CTR ring, relish green bean cassarole or anything else distinctly 'Mormon culture.'

Specifically, the 3 hour block of meetings on Sundays.

Why is this even an issue? Most churches from my understanding have a standard meeting schedule, and regular rituals such as our Sacrament or the RCC Communion ... Its just not an issue with me. I appreciate the unity.

Perhaps we will just have to disagree on that front as well.

 

[Jason of Wyoming]

The reason you choose to bash rather than the other options is the real reason you bash mormonism.

My Mission Prez taught us that there are better ways to teach, but that bashing is fun!

That's why I do it, cause I like it!!

Besides, you guys don't listen anyway......

 

[Jason of Wyoming]

You do have a different understanding of the term, especially when I chose to use the phrase 'direct attack'. There is no direct attack in approaching an individual and sharing a message. If the individual accepts the message into their own beliefs, regardless of the beliefs they held previously - there is no direct attack.

That's the problem a_s. To "incorporate" the beliefs of Mormonism, one must give up their previously held Christian beliefs (and Im not talking about morals here). Indirectly or directly, it's still an attack on one's belief system. To, as GBH says, bring what a Christian has and see if Mormonism can add something more too it, is to alter completely.

This argument wont fly with me. I trust and expect my family members as well as anyone with mental capacity to pursue the faith to which the Spirit of God leads them. If that is Hinduism, I will respect their beliefs.

Then you are fairly unique in your faith.

Since I do not recognize the authority of the RCC, this really has little relevence to my opinion.

Personally, I feel it is an unwise position. If the RCC claims the original authority from Christ Himself, if it claims to be the true church, they should be actively seeking to share their message to every person.

Honestly, it's not just an RCC belief. Protestant Christians often wonder why LDS are trying to convert Christians to their belief system. It's only with some education that they can understand why Mormonism is so fundamentally at odds with Christianity.

I dont believe that the Utah LDS culture is inseparably connected to the gospel. If it appears to be, that is the fault of our members, who are fallible human beings. Our devotion to the gospel of Christ has nothing to do with our propensity to don a CTR ring, relish green bean cassarole or anything else distinctly 'Mormon culture.'

You're right, of course. It is not inseparable. But it is typical. I've read a couple of articles in various publications that bemoan the loss of culture at the expense of the Mormon "gospel".

Why is this even an issue? Most churches from my understanding have a standard meeting schedule, and regular rituals such as our Sacrament or the RCC Communion ... Its just not an issue with me. I appreciate the unity.

That's just it. Is it unity to have everything the exact same all the time? Why cant the individual wards and stakes make their own schedules?

 

[jezusfreak]

JBucky, Ive come across several pages on the web that are about "witnessing to Mormons". Ill pm you the link, one has and entire day seminar on how to "witness to Mormons". Personally I think it is sick that someone would specificly design an entire day seminar with books, pamphlets, and videos on how to convert a person of a specific religion to ones own.

It isn't about religion...it is about a personal RELATIONSHIP with Jesus and believing that He is who He claimed to be, God Almighty in the flesh.

 

[gort]

http://www.beyondmormonism.com/

....an interesting read.....

<><

 

[Onesiphorus]

This argument wont fly with me. I trust and expect my family members as well as anyone with mental capacity to pursue the faith to which the Spirit of God leads them. If that is Hinduism, I will respect their beliefs.

The spirit of God will lead people to Hinduism? Respecting someone's beliefs does not make them right.

What if the early church leaders held your above stated belief? They would just have to let the Gentiles continue, out of respect, with their pagan religions.

 

[Ran77]

That's why I do it, cause I like it!!

That was my suspicion.

 

[jezusfreak]

There's an old Latin proverb that says: "Qui Tacet Consentit." It means "He who is silent, consents."

So does that mean that they (lds) are consenting to our post's that never get an answer? It just amazes me at how much knowledge they profess to have about the Lord and when you come at them with both barrels of the Bible, they never answer your posts.

 

[CrownCaster]

I am amused that you liken LDS missionary efforts with the anti-Mormon efforts. It requires a fertile imagination to group them together. On one hand you have the LDS Church speaking about what they have to offer. (A positive message that explains our teachings.) On the other hand you have the mainstream Christian attacks on the LDS Church. This would include the numerous accusations that the LDS are devil worshippers, pagans, etc that I read on this forum. (A negative message that is intended to sully the image of the LDS Church.)

Our efforts to share what we believe is God's message with others is considered talking bad about other faiths. Yet mainstream Christianity believes that their efforts to do the same thing are not attacks. Even though they include name calling. How strange that this double standard is seen as an acceptable Christian view.

I am stunned by this line of thought.

Your very foundation is based on the idea that God sees all of our faiths as abominations.

 

[CrownCaster]

On this forum Joseph Smith is routinely accused of being a child molestor.

I dont personally know about JS but BY was married to at least one thirteed year old and in my book and the eyes of the law, he would therefore be a child molester.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

That's the problem a_s. To "incorporate" the beliefs of Mormonism, one must give up their previously held Christian beliefs (and Im not talking about morals here). Indirectly or directly, it's still an attack on one's belief system. To, as GBH says, bring what a Christian has and see if Mormonism can add something more too it, is to alter completely.

I have no contention against the idea that LDS theology has distinct and important differences from that of mainstream Christianity. I would not call it alter completely, but that is your perogative.

Again, I do not see sharing the LDS gospel as a direct attack. If you chose to call it an indirect attack, and there is a difference, I suppose that case can be made. Yet, I have already shared with you how I feel about that point of view.

Then you are fairly unique in your faith.

How is that, exactly? Does the majority seek to maintain unrighteous dominion over the belief opportunities of their fellow man? Does the majority not seek to understand and respect the belief opportunities of others - even and especially their own family members? To me, this would be an excercise in futility...

Of course I desire to have my family members partake in the same religion I claim as truth, but religion is so subjective and personal I cannot question a persons ability to seek God directly for answers.

Honestly, it's not just an RCC belief.

That is fine, Jason, but it does not make it any more pertinant to myself.

Protestant Christians often wonder why LDS are trying to convert Christians to their belief system. It's only with some education that they can understand why Mormonism is so fundamentally at odds with Christianity.

In many aspects, LDS theology is vastly different from Mainstream Christianity. Any investigator to the LDS church is not truly understanding what they are being taught if they dont see those differences.

You wonder why we seek to share the Gospel? Because we believe it is the true Gospel of Christ.

For that same reason, I believe mainstream Christianity is driven to keep their members out of the LDS church. You feel that you have the truth. I completely respect that, Jason.

You're right, of course. It is not inseparable. But it is typical. I've read a couple of articles in various publications that bemoan the loss of culture at the expense of the Mormon "gospel".

It is unfortunate that some have had that experience. I would hope that as our understanding of humanity matures, and as our horizons broaden this tendancy will disappear altogether. For the time being, members of the church have to understand the separation themselves, and I do not think that is too much to ask of a person.

That's just it. Is it unity to have everything the exact same all the time? Why cant the individual wards and stakes make their own schedules?

Why would they want to or need to? There is no reason for this.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

I dont personally know about JS but BY was married to at least one thirteed year old and in my book and the eyes of the law, he would therefore be a child molester.

I know that some folks would try to argue that if he was married to the girl, it was not child molestation but then you run into the whole thing of polygamy being illigal and therefore the marriage was not even valid to start with.

Either way, I think it is sick that a man old enough to have a 13 or even 14 year old daughter would marry one.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

The spirit of God will lead people to Hinduism? Respecting someone's beliefs does not make them right.

No. Respecting a person's beliefs does not make them 'right.' I did not assert that. I only assert that I am not the one to claim dominion over the belief opportunities of others.

What if the early church leaders held your above stated belief? They would just have to let the Gentiles continue, out of respect, with their pagan religions.

If you would like to make the case that LDS are not actively devoted to a missionary effort, I eagerly await your evidence.

Please read the context of this conversation in its entirity before you seek to argue my commentary.

 

[Jason of Wyoming]

How is that, exactly? Does the majority seek to maintain unrighteous dominion over the belief opportunities of their fellow man? Does the majority not seek to understand and respect the belief opportunities of others - even and especially their own family members? To me, this would be an excercise in futility...

Why not allow the Spirit work on somebody and they come to you? You've got a large enough denomination now that you don't have to send people out knocking on doors like before.

It is unfortunate that some have had that experience. I would hope that as our understanding of humanity matures, and as our horizons broaden this tendancy will disappear altogether. For the time being, members of the church have to understand the separation themselves, and I do not think that is too much to ask of a person.

Like I said before, you're a rare Mormon. Not necessarily a liberal, but definately rare. That's a good thing IMO.

Why would they want to or need to? There is no reason for this.

How about sleeping in on Sunday morning?!!!!

Of course, that's not the only thing. Why do all the buildings have to look the nearly identical? Why do all the new temples look identical? (vernal being an exception).

Now this has nothing to do with the "truth" of anything, and I realize that. But individual expression is so important in religion. That's one of the reasons why I left Mormonism. There's really no room for individual expressions of piety.

 

[CrownCaster]

How about sleeping in on Sunday morning?!!!!

Oh, man, I remember the days as ward mission leader/stake missionary and also the executive secretary where I had to be in church ever Sunday for a meeting at 6:00 a.m. and then go to the three hour block. I was a wreck. Yes, the sleep would have been appreciated.

BTW, Jason, I really appreciate and notice that in your posts of late, you have been making a concerted effort to be decent and respectful and for that I thank you and would like to say that I have personally gotten much more wisdom out of them. Again, thanks.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

Why not allow the Spirit work on somebody and they come to you? You've got a large enough denomination now that you don't have to send people out knocking on doors like before.

Size is not the issue, I am sure you are aware.

How about sleeping in on Sunday morning?!!!!

Well ... my singles ward meets at 1:00 PM. I wish it was earlier!!!!!

Of course, that's not the only thing. Why do all the buildings have to look the nearly identical?

Efficiency. Very reasonable.

There's really no room for individual expressions of piety.

You may have a small point there ... but if God has sanctified a particular form of expression, as I believe he has, I feel inclined to follow it.