Converting "Mormons"

[Rescued One]

Youre taking what I said out of context. I said I think it is wrong to teach how to convert people of specific religion. I do not see anything wrong with general missionary efforts from any church. But when a Church, or orginazation like NAMB which is where I found what I stated, begins to produce material on how to convert people in specific religions, like say, catholics, Budihsts(spelling?), Lutherans, Muslims ect... Your teachings, in my opinion, should be the same no matter who you are talking to.

I see absolutely nothing morally wrong with wanting to reach people who are of another faith. If I went to India, I'd want to understand their culture so as not to ignorantly offend them. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. What is the point of being ignorant about other cultures and being ignorant about handling the word of God? If it is wrong to be an effective witness, why does the Lord instruct us to do just that?

2 Timothy 2
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Matthew 5
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Romans 14
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way [NKJV: resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way].
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:

2 Corinthians 6
1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:

 

[Rescued One]

Hey JBucky. The best approach I have seen for witnessing to Mormons is outlined in a book and video by pastor Mark Cares called "Speaking the Truth in Love to Mormons." Pastor Cares emphasizes building strong relationships with Mormons before talking to them about religion, because protesting in front of the Temple is just lame and doesn't work. He recommends that you don't try to refute their specific doctrines from the Bible and get into a Bible-verse war with them. It's not hard to "win" a debate about what the Bible teaches, but Mormons usually don't care.

Amazing! So many of the ex-Mormons I've talked and myself included, left because Mormonism contradicts the Bible.

Instead, Pastor Cares recommends comparing the Mormon interpretation of Matthew 5:28 (be ye perfect) with the hard-hitting gospel of Hebrews 10:14: "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." Pastor Cares notes that it is not smooth talk but the power of the gospel that actually touches people's hearts. Using this approach, we can make ourselves perfectly clear (since Mormons can't redefine perfection the way they do salvation and damnation) about what we mean, and we can let the gospel do the work for us. Pastor Cares recommends not getting too sidetracked from this central discussion. He also says to pray and to persevere, but not to get frustrated. The key point is to do all in love.
-CK

I'll definitely go along with the prayer and love. But harshness sometimes jogged me into thinking.

 

[Rescued One]

Im developing a strategy that mirrors the LDS one.

Developing relationships of trust,

inviting the spirit,

prayer,

and peer-pressuring them into accepting baptism within six short lessons.

Think it'll work?

LOL! You mean I wasn't the only one pressured to dive into the baptismal font?

 

[ST:DS9]

Only God can convert one to the truth. We can only hope to be used of Him when He chooses to give the person the opportunity to have their eyes opened and receive salvation. Nothing I do in here will do any good without Jesus Christ at the helm.

Totally agree,

 

[Rescued One]

It appears to me from reading this board and others as well as checking 'anti' literature, the first concept in the conversion process is to convey the seemingly outlandishness of the LDS church: Gods of our planets endlessly producing spirit babies with multiple wives is the favorite. Basically belittle the LDS's beliefs, distort and misrepresent and cause the member to question their knowledge and faith "My church believes that?!". Drag up out-of-context quotes from long dead prophets and beat the member over the head with them.

You're funny! I like those long dead prophets: Micah, Isaiah, Jeremiah.

Then go in on the 'you need Jesus' speil because you believe in a 'false' Christ using the Trinity (which admittedly, many LDS don't truly understand the 'orthodox' view') arguments and again belittling the LDS beliefs of grace and works 'proving' to the member that in the Church they are 'earning' their salvation and negating the blood of Christ. [I know, where do they get this stuff? They have been reading their own propoganda too much LOL!]
Finally, they want you to accept Christ by saying a few words and send you off to a 'Bible' believing Church after burning your BoM and temple garments.

Oh, no! You've met people who belittle your beliefs? You're kidding!



Come unto me,
all ye that labour

and are heavy laden,

and I will give you rest.
Matthew 11:28

 

[CrownCaster]

When I was lds, I volenteered at the MTC. A group of us would voleenter to play the part of "investigators" or just people who got their doors knocked on. The training was VERY detailed and very much a training on how to "convert" people. Even to the point that the "sessions" were video taped, reviewed and gone over on what the missionary did right and did wrong. I reminded me of the training I recieved when I did sales for a staffing service.

And there are specifics on dealing with Christians and expaining to them that God has given "more light and knowledge" and to really hit home to get the Christians to listen, they bring up the "forever family" thing and also make sure to use the Christian wording. This seems to be exactly what he is saying makes him sick about Christians attending a seminar to learn to evangelize the LDS.

 

[Apex]

And there are specifics on dealing with Christians and expaining to them that God has given "more light and knowledge" and to really hit home to get the Christians to listen, they bring up the "forever family" thing and also make sure to use the Christian wording. This seems to be exactly what he is saying makes him sick about Christians attending a seminar to learn to evangelize the LDS.

Just drop it, either you dont understand what I meant, or you just want to take it out of context.

 

[ST:DS9]

Im developing a strategy that mirrors the LDS one.

Developing relationships of trust,

inviting the spirit,

prayer,

and peer-pressuring them into accepting baptism within six short lessons.

Think it'll work?

Ah come on now, at least use the correct terminology:
Building a relationships of trust (BRT)

 

[arizona_sunshine]

Apex,

I have never been to any sort of seminar about converting LDS. But you statement seems a little silly when one considers the number of people as well as the amount of time, resources spent at the MTC in Provo, learning how to convert people from other religions to Mormonism.

The difference I believe would be that LDS pamphlets, videos and efforts are about the establishment of a particular faith, not the destruction of a specific, particular faith. I may be unaware, but I am not familiar with any LDS missionary approach, with associated media, which targets the destruction of any particular faith (i.e. Mainstream Christianity, Islam...).

If anything, I have been encouraged to seek similarities between our faith and others. I have found this to be a much more beneficial approach all-around, regardless of any 'conversion' results.

 

[Jason of Wyoming]

Ah come on now, at least use the correct terminology:
Building a relationships of trust (BRT)

Oh yes. I stand corrected! (See, I do admit when Im wrong )

 

[CaliforniaKid]

If anything, I have been encouraged to seek similarities between our faith and others. I have found this to be a much more beneficial approach all-around, regardless of any 'conversion' results.

Unfortunately, when LDS missionaries do this they also minimize the differences. The result is that they are deceptive, perhaps without meaning to be. Most recent converts don't even realize what the church teaches.

-CK

 

[Jason of Wyoming]

The difference I believe would be that LDS pamphlets, videos and efforts are about the establishment of a particular faith, not the destruction of a specific, particular faith. I may be unaware, but I am not familiar with any LDS missionary approach, with associated media, which targets the destruction of any particular faith (i.e. Mainstream Christianity, Islam...).

If anything, I have been encouraged to seek similarities between our faith and others. I have found this to be a much more beneficial approach all-around, regardless of any 'conversion' results.

Even though you don't see it as a "destruction of a specific faith," the rest of us do. You're church targets Christians who accept the Blessed Trinity, and tries to change that belief into a henotheistic belief.

Furthermore, you're church destroys culture. It attempts to transform the whole world into the "Utah Valley Culture" mindset. You may disagree, citing the "Polynesian Center" in Hawaii, or some such thing, but in the end, Church services are identical to Utah services for a reason: Conformity.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

I see absolutely nothing morally wrong with wanting to reach people who are of another faith. If I went to India, I'd want to understand their culture so as not to ignorantly offend them.

I think that is a wonderful approach as well, but for me it would not include telling people how wrong their beliefs happen to be.

Do not draw comparisons that are not appropriate.

The approach under question would be that of criticism for conversion. This is what Apex was originally speaking of. I am sure he has no problem with people seeking to understand his culture ...

 

[happyinhisgrace]

I think that is a wonderful approach as well, but for me it would not include telling people how wrong their beliefs happen to be.

Do not draw comparisons that are not appropriate.

The approach under question would be that of criticism for conversion. This is what Apex was originally speaking of. I am sure he has no problem with people seeking to understand his culture ...

Except in the MTC training programs that I used to volenteer for, they DID point out differences between Christianity and the LDS church and what the lds church could offer that christianity could NOT.

I realize that most lds do not believe that their church talks bad about other churches or points out the "bad" in other churches to try and convert people but the FACT is that they DO.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

Unfortunately, when LDS missionaries do this they also minimize the differences. The result is that they are deceptive, perhaps without meaning to be. Most recent converts don't even realize what the church teaches.

... Yet the information is readily available for any who desires. I have little sympathy for those who dont realize what they are getting into, and seek to blame it on others. People should take responsibility for their own desisions.

The 'secret doctines' of the church do little to shake a firm testimony, as they are better understood, or those that are incorrect are discarded as such.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

Even though you don't see it as a "destruction of a specific faith," the rest of us do. You're church targets Christians who accept the Blessed Trinity, and tries to change that belief into a henotheistic belief.

I disagree. The establishment of a particular faith does not translate directly to a direct attack on another.

It may be seen as an indirect attack, but only to those eager to pull the persecution card (a tendancy of which LDS are often accused). If you consider my personal testimony and desire to share it an attack on your faith, I think that is a very small way to look at things.

Furthermore, you're church destroys culture. It attempts to transform the whole world into the "Utah Valley Culture" mindset. You may disagree, citing the "Polynesian Center" in Hawaii, or some such thing, but in the end, Church services are identical to Utah services for a reason: Conformity.

I disagree here as well. Dont mix LDS theology with Utah culture. Utah cultures with its 'Hawaiian Haystacks' and jello salads sickens me, but it has nothing to do with my testimony.

What church services are you speaking of? Sometimes we are attacked for our inconsistancy ... other times for our consistancy ... The ordinance of Baptism is consistant as we believe we were given directions on its execution by God. The Sacrament and other ordinances is the same. The organization is consistant. These things make sense to me.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

Except in the MTC training programs that I used to volenteer for, they DID point out differences between Christianity and the LDS church and what the lds church could offer that christianity could NOT.

I realize that most lds do not believe that their church talks bad about other churches or points out the "bad" in other churches to try and convert people but the FACT is that they DO.

All right, then it is your personal experience against mine. If members of the church are using this approach, I would consider them out of line.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

All right, then it is your personal experience against mine. If members of the church are using this approach, I would consider them out of line.

It isn't just my "personal experience", it is how they do the training sessions at the MTC for all missionaries who are there before going out to their respective areas. It is everyone's experience who has ever been in those sessions.

AS, if you are ever in Provo and have about 3 hours, you can contact the MTC and sign up for the training sessions. They will just verify that you are indeed and active lds and what ward you are in and tell you when the training session is and what building it is in. You just go to the building and sign in and they give you a pass and direct you to the "instruction" room where they tell you the rules and have a prayer and then off to the sessions you go. I actually encourage you to take part in one. It is a real eye opener.

 

[Ran77]

Except in the MTC training programs that I used to volenteer for, they DID point out differences between Christianity and the LDS church and what the lds church could offer that christianity could NOT.

I realize that most lds do not believe that their church talks bad about other churches or points out the "bad" in other churches to try and convert people but the FACT is that they DO.

I am amused that you liken LDS missionary efforts with the anti-Mormon efforts. It requires a fertile imagination to group them together. On one hand you have the LDS Church speaking about what they have to offer. (A positive message that explains our teachings.) On the other hand you have the mainstream Christian attacks on the LDS Church. This would include the numerous accusations that the LDS are devil worshippers, pagans, etc that I read on this forum. (A negative message that is intended to sully the image of the LDS Church.)

Our efforts to share what we believe is God's message with others is considered talking bad about other faiths. Yet mainstream Christianity believes that their efforts to do the same thing are not attacks. Even though they include name calling. How strange that this double standard is seen as an acceptable Christian view.

I am stunned by this line of thought.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

It isn't just my "personal experience", it is how they do the training sessions at the MTC for all missionaries who are there before going out to their respective areas. It is everyone's experience who has ever been in those sessions.

I never have, and thank you for the suggestion. Meanwhile, the argument is still my personal experience against yours.

My understanding also is that I have a different response from you to many goings on in the church, and I would gather our opinions differ on many more things. You and I have vastly different interpretation styles.