Converted ex Muslims are particularly difficult to support in their new faith: Some techniques that might help.

[JosephZ]

Sorry but you are twisting my words

I wasn't sure how else to take them. You appeared to be blaming the religion of Muslims for their practice of polygamy, child marriage, female genital mutalation, and killing those who leave Islam, while saying those of other religions who do the same do so because of mental illness. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you are saying?

I can’t understand why you want to support Islam and choose to ignore the obvious facts that are plainly out there.

Oh, I don't support Islam at all, but I will correct misinformation and misguided stereotypes of the religion and those who follow it.

I’ve never heard of anyone outside of Islam doing these horrific things. And if they are done they are extremely rare, signs of mental illness. Whereas in the Islamic world they are normal, accepted and done often. That’s the striking difference.

I gave several examples showing that people outside of Islam participate in child marriages, polygamy, female genital mutilation, and kill their own people for leaving their religion. These acts occur in significant numbers among Muslims and non-Muslims. I have also shown that while the numbers are significant in Muslim culture, it is not the norm.

You’re spitting out these stats that have no relevance to the conversation. Like a highly educated, very knowledgeable expert that has no common sense because of a lack of life experience.

I have been immersed in Islamic culture for well over a decade, and my knowledge of Islam goes back to the 1980's. It was at that time that I had to take courses in Islamic studies while in the military before being assigned to an Islamic country where I lived for a year. I have also read the Qur'an many times over, and when time permits, I still take some courses online to continue to increase my knowledge of Islam. The information I shared in this thread from other sources serves as supporting evidence for what I have already learned from personal experience.

I suspect you live amongst very mild Muslims and have a warped view of Islam. It’s a lot worse than you think.

Or maybe your view of Islam is much worse than it actually is? Many hardline Muslim extremists can be found in the areas I work in, and I have witnessed the negative effects of Islamic extremism and how it affects people's lives firsthand. As a result, I can say with certainty that those who promote extreme Islamic ideologies do not represent true Islam and those who follow it.

You mention polygamy being rare in some countries but those are all very poor countries. They can’t afford multiple wives in those areas. My point is if a man CAN have multiple wives he almost always DOES have multiple wives in Islam. Saudi Arabia is a perfect example.

99% of adult men in Saudi Arabia are not in a polygamous marriage, and polygamy is not a common practice there or in the Muslim world as a whole.

And as a Christian you should know that polygamy is never OK with God. You know this. So if someone does it they are most certainly not Christian.

There are a lot of Christians in this world who do a lot of unchristian things.

In Africa they do all kinds of bizarre practices so obviously these things aren’t Christian but brought on by cultural pressure.

You have hit the nail on the head with this statement. Polygamy, Female Genital Mutilation, and child marriage are all cultural practices, not religious. They all existed long before Christianity and Islam.

And in very poor countries like India, Pakistan or Bangladesh poverty will spur parents to marry off their daughters. And again, never true Christian people. It’s unthinkable.

This is also the case in he Philippines, but most child marriages are a matter of tradition rather than for financial reasons. Many Muslim and indigenous marriages are arranged by the parents and other relatives of the couple to be married. There is usually a dowry involved, and the amount can range from P1,000.00 to P15,000.00 ($20-$300) depending upon the financial capability of the groom's family and the status of the bride's family in the community. I have attended both Christian and Islamic weddings where the bride was under 15 years old; the youngest was 13.

“Killed for leaving Islam”: Do you think the threat of this wouldn’t affect people? Again that’s my point.

Yes, it would be a traumatic experience and would lead to a great deal of stress. There is certainly the need of a support system for Muslims who find themselves in a situation where they are being harassed or threatened with harm for leaving Islam.

And death IS a very real issue in Saudi Arabia and other areas.

While apostasy is punishable by death in Saudi Arabia, it is rare for the death penalty to be carried out.

"The Basic Law of Governance establishes the country as a sovereign Arab Islamic state, the religion of which is Islam. The Basic Law defines the country’s constitution as the Quran and the Sunna and states the “decisions of judges shall not be subject to any authority other than the authority of the Islamic sharia.” The Basic Law contains no legal recognition or protection of freedom of religion. Conversion from Islam to another religion is grounds for the charge of apostasy, which is legally punishable by death, although courts have not carried out a death sentence for apostasy in many years."

There may be some cases of non-state actors, like family members or extremist killing Muslims in Saudi Arabia for leaving Islam, but it wouldn't be a common occurrence.

So how did you feel about Oct 7 in Israel? Was that a logical protest to perceived injustices they felt Israel had brought against them?

There is no justification for the horrendous terrorist attack carried out by Hamas on October 7th.

If you are working with Muslims, helping them to see the light I applaud you. But you don't say what you do, if your work is humanitarian or Christian or both. Feeding someone just to have them go to hell has always seemed pointless to me.

Then again many would argue the longer they live the more chance they have of finding salvation. I still feel the money/time/work should go to the message.

Sharing the gospel message is just one part of the equation. As personal witnesses to Jesus Christ and the gospel, living our lives in a Christlike manner and treating others with a Christlike attitude is also important. The simple acts of showing kindness, love, and compassion towards those who are lost may be all it takes to eventually lead them to the Truth and allow the Holy Spirit to work in their lives. Living by example is at the foundation and perhaps one of the most crucial components of our personal witness to Christ to others. Every Muslim has heard about Jesus, most many times over, but they may not have seen Him in action even once.

“For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example that you should follow His steps." (1 Peter 2:21)

Studies have shown that Muslims come to Christ because of Christ Himself and seeing Christ in others. Below is a sample of some of these studies.

A case study of 170 conversion narratives; mostly from Sudan; a case study of Palestinians and Bangladeshis; a paper examining the written testimonies of 173 Muslims worldwide who came to faith in Jesus Christ, and a study of 750 former Muslims, a study in Kenya of 17 urban ex-Muslims, These all confirm what all other studies have shown: the Living Christ and living Christians are the main keys to conversion.

Jean-Marie Gaudeul’s Study (1999)

Gaudeul published his findings of 170 publicly available conversion stories in a book named Called from Islam to Christ. He lists five main factors in conversion:

• “Jesus is so attractive”
• Jesus alone satisfies their “Thirst for Truth”
• Christianity satisfies their longing for community as they felt like they were “without a family”
• Christianity satifies an existential need for actual forgiveness
• “a thirst for God” by which he means a thirst to encounter God in a personal way

Anthony (Ant) Greenham’s Study (2004)

Ant Greenham conducted research on Palestinian Muslim converts and then compared that data with conversions in Bangladesh. His research shows that among both men and women, the overwhelming factor that they cited in their coming to faith in Christ was the person of Jesus. He states, that “the person of Jesus is always central.”

• The person of Jesus,
• the truth of Jesus’ message,
• God’s honor,
• the lives of believers,
• reading the Bible,
• God’s miraculous action.

Bruce L. Bronoske's Study (2005):

In 2005 Bronoske studied conversion narratives of 173 people throughout the world and compiled the data in his study entitled “A Comparative Study Of The Self-Revelation Of Jesus Found In The Canonical New Testament And The Jesus of The Qur'an, And The Effect A Muslim Seeker's Understanding Of Jesus Has Upon Their Decision To Convert To Christianity." [Northwest Graduate School Of The Ministry, D.Min]

92% of converts from Islam cited the Biblical Jesus as the focal point of their conversion.

...these Muslims gave their devotion was as Bronoske stated, “was the New Testament understanding of Jesus Christ. That is, Jesus Christ as He was revealed within the text of the canonical New Testament”. This Jesus had been introduced to them primarily through a "familiar voice" namely through a “friend, a family member, or a trusted acquaintance”

Bronoske summarized his work by citing a quote from Francis Schaeffer, namely that if he had only one hour to share the gospel with a person, he would spend the first forty-five minutes finding out what the person believed about God and the last fifteen minutes presenting Christ from that basis.

J. Dudley Woodberry, Russell G. Shubin, and G. Marks study (2007):

In 2007 an article which summarized 750 interviews with former Muslims was featured in Christianity Today under the title: “Why Muslims Follow Jesus?: The results of a recent survey of converts from Islam.” The study, done between 1991 and 2007, surveyed people from 30 countries and 50 ethnic groups. The researchers ranked the order of influences stated by their correspondents on their conversions:

• the lifestyle of Christians
• the power of God in answered prayers and healing
• dissatisfaction with the type of Islam they had experienced
• spiritual truth in the Bible
• love expressed through the life and teachings of Jesus.

Reinhold Strahler's Study (2009):

In Nairobi, Kenya, Reinhold Strahler conducted extensive interviews with 17 urban former Muslims who had come to faith. Like Bronoske he found strong evidences for the “familiar voice” as being decisive in the conversion stories. Similarly the life of Christians and the Bible figures strongly in the findings.

Significant factors in all conversion processes, sorted by frequency

• personal witness by Christians
• attractive lifestyle of Christians
• love / friendship shown by Christians
• reading Bible
• dissatisfaction with practice of Islam
• evangelistic meetings
• answered prayer

In a nutshell these Muslim converts encountered the living Jesus, the living Word of God, and living Christians.

Source: Why Do Muslims Come to Christ? Five Case Studies

 

[Richard.20.12]

I've made my points.
I was curious where you were educated. Perhaps a liberal, western university? You certainly are a very unique Filipino.
Do you write for a living perhaps?
Ever written a book? You know you can self publish on Amazon and other places very inexpensively in case you wanted to express yourself.

 

[Richard.20.12]

Again I wanted to reiterate this discussion is not about the initial conversion. It's about helping them maintain their faith when, if they're in the west (and probably if they're back home) they would have to leave home, possibly with several children, with no financial support, no work skills, no work experience and little to no education. That's the problem with Muslims you don't encounter in most every other religion. And it's an enormous problem if they are to stay in the faith. Who is going to take in a woman with 5+ kids and do it until she has trained so she can work? That can be a long time. Now in a western country she could divorce her husband and apply for alimony. But the Muslim community is tight and they can be very clever if working together so if the husband claims he lost his job (because he is now working for cash) she will get nothing. Hiring lawyers is very expensive.

 

[JosephZ]

You certainly are a very unique Filipino.

I'm not Filipino, I'm American.

Ever written a book?

I have two books published and a third that I haven't yet published, and I'm not sure if I ever will.

Who is going to take in a woman with 5+ kids and do it until she has trained so she can work? That can be a long time.

Supporting at risk Muslims who have decided to follow Christ is the role of the Church. It should be the Church that meets the needs of the former Muslim's family, from supporting them in their spiritual growth to providing financial assistance for education or training, child care, food, shelter, and emotional support.