Converted ex Muslims are particularly difficult to support in their new faith: Some techniques that might help.

[Richard.20.12]

The vast majority of Muslims living in western society are very intertwined with other Muslims. So to break free would mean a divorce if married or walking away from the immediate family, if not. Clearly a drastic move. Honor killings are a thing so when they leave they must break all ties and probably need to leave that area. Depends on the zeal of the father. No sane mother would ever kill her own daughter but some are heavily indoctrinated. They need a safe house close by they can disappear into until they can plan their flight from that region. If she is married, children are probably in the picture and they would be coming along of course. No mother is going to leave her children behind. As many Muslim families in the west allow the wife to go out alone this can usually be done. They just have to have a destination that nobody in their circle of religion knows about. And the best people to staff that safe house would be those that came from that Muslim world. Only they will be able to offer the compassion and understanding they need.

 

[1Tonne]

Here are some ways of telling the Gospel to a Muslim person

And a whole lot of other stuff that is really good.

Living Waters

The vision of Living Waters is to inspire and equip Christians to fulfill the Great Commission. You can learn more about our ministry at http://www.LivingWaters.com. You can visit our store by going to LivingWaters.com/store, or by clicking the Living Waters Store link below. Hosted by Ray...

www.youtube.com

 

[rachelrising]

A number of conversions of Muslims to me appear to be very deep and profound. They seem to often involve healing or miracles as well. They can invole visions etc as well. I do have an issue with some of these books how they are written. I have not read this but for example the Torn Veil by Gulsen Esther. I haven't read this and might have too many issues with it. It is a very popular book though. In this book this woman claims to have had I believe an encounter with Jesus. You see this is where my issue lies. This encounter as Christians would have been with the Holy Spirit or a vision etc. We know Jesus has not returned yet but there will be a second coming. Some of the books seem to suggest Jesus visited them. Too much for me to brush off. Perhaps though look into it as it a best seller and she has reached uncountable number with her strong testimony. I dared to call him Father might be one to look at by Bilquis Sheikh as well. There are some healing claims on Youtube to etc.

Some of these cases were from the 80s and 90s a period of innoncene perhaps moreso. Or perhaps that is more than is ever needed.

There is one book I would love to read again. It was not a Muslim though although she was of that origin, she was a Christian and was healed. The story was real and I believed it to be true.

 

[Inhocsigno]

Some good suggestions here indeed. This indeed has been one of primary areas of focus for our missions in Europe, and in general we've had success by helping to personalize the message of the Gospels, respecting the culture including the language and customs of the lands where the converts have come from, but showing how the message and blessings of the Lord meet their spiritual needs. We then provide good examples and gradually help to integrate them into the community.

The best part of success stories in this case, is that the converts then become among our best ministers not only in helping convert other Muslims in Europe en masse, but also to bring the message of the Gospels back to their home nations in North Africa and the Middle East. This is something that we as (usually) American, Canadian and Australian missionaries generally cannot do, due to visa restrictions and cultural sensitivities. But when we reach and convert Muslims within Europe, they are then able to connect to their home communities, families and neighborhoods as people who already belong, but this time as Christians with the love of the Lord and the Church in their hearts. Through this, we've had greater success than efforts since a millennium in rebuilding churches throughout the MENA region. Especially in Berber regions, and in much of Syria and Turkey where both renewed and new churches are being built at record pace.

 

[Richard.20.12]

Here are some ways of telling the Gospel to a Muslim person

And a whole lot of other stuff that is really good.

Living Waters

The vision of Living Waters is to inspire and equip Christians to fulfill the Great Commission. You can learn more about our ministry at http://www.LivingWaters.com. You can visit our store by going to LivingWaters.com/store, or by clicking the Living Waters Store link below. Hosted by Ray...

www.youtube.com

Living Waters is a great channel for street ministry but that isn't relevant to my post. Only Muslims kill others for leaving Islam. Not exactly the same problem with atheism, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. Also a Muslim is not allowed to leave Islam and retain their family. And as soon as the husband leaves the wife is forced to marry someone else. It's utterly brutal and the west is clueless. Hence the worldwide sympathy for Muslim causes and how they milk our emotions as they slaughter their own people for the world's pity so they can wreck havoc on Israel.

So dealing with Muslims and trying to draw them to Christianity is on a whole other level of ministry. Imagine if you embraced a new religion and had to leave your children/family to practice it. And your work and your social circle and all your interests because you can bet that is very intertwined with your previous religious faith. If your husband is very dedicated you have to worry about your own life because he might take it.

 

[Andrewn]

I absolutely disagree. When we are saved the Church is our family, our brothers and sisters and mothers and fathers .. People just need the love of our adoptive family.

You make an excellent point, which is also true of anyone who becomes a Christian.

In talking with Muslims, I've found that some "Christian" teachings form unnecessary hurdles, among these:

1) The Egalitarian Trinity.
2) The Inherited Sin.
3) Satisfaction and Penal Substitution Atonement.

Even though these theories are not upheld by all Christians, Muslims are taught that they represent standard Christians. Many/most Christians also insist on these teachings when approaching Muslims, which makes it difficult to represent them to Muslims as aberrations that came after the Nicene Creed was approved in the 4th century.

What is your opinion about this?

 

[Andrewn]

My husband is a Calvinist. Full on Primitive Baptist upbringing, 5 point Calvinist. . . . Yes, I am Calvinistic too,

Is there something particularly attractive about Calvinism for a previous Muslim? I really didn't think so.

But perhaps Calvinism's tendency to provide answers, where the Bible leaves things vague, is particularly appealing?

 

[Andrewn]

I gave everyone a chance though. This just made sense, though my husband would have taken me anywhere I wanted.

Criticizing Calvinism is not my intention or the intention of the thread. But one observation is that "predestination" may have elitist overtones similar to the following Quranic verse:

[Believers], you are the best community singled out for people: you order what is right, forbid what is wrong, and believe in God. If the People of the Book had also believed, it would have been better for them. For although some of them do believe, most of them are lawbreakers-
— M.A.S. Abdel Haleem

Are there any Calvinist beliefs you disagree with?

How do you recommend the Trinity and the deity of Christ be presented to Muslims?

 

[Richard.20.12]

I absolutely disagree.

When we are saved the Church is our family, our brothers and sisters and mothers and fathers ..

People just need the love of our adoptive family.

Generally whoever is the one who is close enough to the Muslim that they trust enough to really open up to and actually talk about faith with is the personality they feel safe and comfortable around so remember that personality if you need to move someone after they are saved.

You just have to be welcoming when they come though, be that family God wants us to be.

Sorry but it appears you have no idea what the world of Islam really is. Polygamy, child brides (over 600 million Muslim women were married off as children), no rights for women at all (many are imprisoned in their home for months at a time, especially if they are particularly attractive), decapitation for sexual sins like adultery or homosexuality, genetic mutilation is very common in Islamic countries to discourage women from straying, and no public protests against the religion or government. And of course zero financial support.
Now imagine living in that world where your work is around other Muslims who watch each other intently. Where socialization is forbidden with non Muslims. Where everything they own at home is inspected. Zero privacy. How can you get close to a Muslim when their world is so fenced off? Pray tell. Now even if you can and they are receptive (which many are) the support structure is what I'm talking about. We know this is important. Almost everyone that "converts" at evangelical meetings slips away within a few months. Followup is crucial. We all need it. It's one of the reasons we're here, isn't it?

If a Muslim converts they can't show it at home. Everything must go on just as before. Remember death is possible for people that wander way. This is no cheery meditation retreat thing where people HMMMM and feel nice about themselves. This is life and death, children or utter barrenness, a completely upheaval if they decide to walk away. This is ministry on a completely different level than anything we in the west can conceptualize. And nobody is talking about it. Well it's time we did. And it's time we set up a support structure with ex Muslims because only they understand the culture and what they had to sacrifice to walk away. They have lived it. They are the qualified ones to offer support.

 

[Richard.20.12]

To give you an idea how brutal Islam is just google
Chop Chop Square
and see what you find. Note the drainage holes in the concrete. That's for blood. Because you wouldn't want it to pool, would you?
The initial conversion is relatively easy.
How do you console a mother who has no contact with her children?
How do you calm a mother who, when contacting her husband after she left, threatens to end her life and knows her secrets including what she likes, where she goes and who she hangs out with? All that must be totally cut, a complete break from the past. VERY few people can manage that from any background.
The Muslim community is very tight. The children can be moved around amongst friends very easily making them impossible to locate. Social Services of any city is stretched thin already. They have no time to play detective. The police would say it's a family matter. Of course the only way to make this work is do this when the man and other men in the house are gone and the woman bundles all the children up at once and vanishes with the support of a friend. But that friend is hard to contact if you don't have a phone you can call from because your room gets searched all the time and would be found quickly if you acquired one. (Perhaps one way would be to forward your phone number to the number you want to call and then call your own number....would the call forwarded number show up in your data history? Not sure.) You could hide a prepaid phone bought with cash deep in the house I suppose. It's the only way. So then she's at her safe house with probably marginal English, no skills, no training as she's been a stay at home mother her whole life, probably married in her teens. She can be accommodated and fed inexpensively and hopefully her English will improve while living there talking to English speaking people there. But at a certain point she needs to find work, daycare for the kids, and a place to live. And she needs to do that far away from where she used to live, certainly not in the same city. That's not cheap. These are some crushing hurdles that must be dealt with if she is to maintain her faith. Once she is settled she could contact her family and check up on everyone as long as she is very careful with technology, which very, very few women are. So that's always dangerous. But how do you explain to your child that daddy is trying to kill mommy and we can't talk to him? Just how do you explain that? Well you start by showing them the Quran and the insanity in it. But it's REALLY hard trying to explain how such defective thinking can sway and control so many people around the world. Well the more you learn about Islam the more you see total and complete control. If one half of the population totally controls the other half it makes their life easier. So men don't want a change obviously. And when the men have a lot of money and can buy most anything for a woman (quite a few families in some Muslim countries have MORE than one jet), several palaces (not mansions, but palaces which take a small army to maintain) in different parts of the world where they bring their exotic cars to when there. When women are showered with so much luxury and know that it will immediately be snatched away if they wander away....that is a powerful force. And it's used every day in Islamic culture.

 

[Richard.20.12]

Here's an example of forced marriage/attempted honor killing posted TODAY in Washington State.

Video Allegedly Shows Moment Parents Choked Daughter at Bus Stop In Attempted 'Honor Killing'

A 17-year-old girl was allegedly attacked and choked out by her own parents outside her high school at a bus stop in an attempt to kidnap her and take her overseas for an arranged marriage with an older man -- with the father getting into a fight with the teen's 16-year-old boyfriend and other...

toofab.com

Note she was going to be bundled on to a plane since most people don't exactly sail across the Atlantic or Pacific. That's no normal flight. That's a private jet. A lot of money is involved. Why would they do this? Often it's because of money. The family gets used to a very pampered lifestyle and to maintain that agreements and alliances must be maintained. Often these involve a daughter marrying someone who wields considerable financial clout the father/family needs to keep things going.
One of the best exposes ever written on Muslim hypocrisy is Princess by Jean Sasson. You can read it free by downloading it below.

oceanofpdf.com/authors/jean-sasson/pdf-epub-princess-a-true-story-of-life-behind-the-veil-in-saudi-arabia-download

If you're on a computer Calibre can convert it to any format if you can't read EPUB files. EPUB gives you much more control because it line wraps compared to PDF so it's far better for reading. Most phones read EPUB. Calibre is an excellent reader and can handle most any file type. If you like it send the author a small donation of which she will get 100% instead of a small amount when it sells normally.
Oceanofpdf is a gold mine for millions of books. Libgen.is is another. Torrent sites are also great.
Best way to read digital material is with an ereader since they have no glare. They're very inexpensive, especially older ones on the used market. They tend to start around $20. Phones, tablets/iPads and computer screens have glare which fatigues our vision.

 

[Richard.20.12]

My apologies but rereading the title of this post made it clear to me that I had been very careless with the words chosen. It's been rewritten so it's more relevant to my post. Hopefully this helps. I see why some of you have responded as you have; you replied more to the title than to the post. Understandable as the title is what initially draws people in. Plus on phones people frequently don't read as much as they would if they were on a computer with a big screen.

 

[JosephZ]

Only Muslims kill others for leaving Islam. Not exactly the same problem with atheism, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc.

This isn't true.

Interfaith marriages rarely take place in India, where Hindus comprise 79.8 percent of the population, according to the 2011 Census, and Muslims another 14.2 percent. Parents, more often than not, not only object to interfaith but also intercaste marriages.

Intercaste and inter-religious marriages are so vehemently opposed in some Hindu communities that families indulge in what is called “honor killing,” or killing the daughter (in most cases) or the son to save the family’s honor. Such is the gravity of the situation that India’s Supreme Court in 2018 issued a set of guidelines to deal with such cases, including setting up a 24×7 telephone helpline for lovers at risk from their family.


Christian Woman Killed by Relatives

A Christian woman was beaten to death with a hammer and other weapons on June 24th because of her conversion to Christianity. The murder took place in Toylanka, a village in the state of Chhattisgarh.

Since her conversion to Christ four years ago, Bindu Sodhi had faced ongoing harassment and threats from opposing Hindu relatives. On the day of the attack, she was plowing a field with members of her immediate family when they were suddenly ambushed. Facing a mob armed with axes and other weapons, Bindu's mother, brother and sister fled the area.


Man beheaded in Odisha for converting to Christianity

A Christian evangelical man was found virtually beheaded in Orissa, which many believe was a hate crime committed by Hindu fanatics because of his conversion to the faith.

The victim Anant Ram Gand, 40, was the father of five children. Shibu Thomas, the founder of the Persecution Relief network that deals with defending discriminated Christians in India, said that Gand had converted to Christianity nine months ago and had been baptized two months ago. “His conversion has attracted the ire of the villagers, mostly Hindu fanatics. They armed the Naxals who physically committed the murder,” he told Asia News.

A week before the vicious attack, seven people from the village had given Gand an ultimatum to renounce Christianity or face death...


Israeli Christian killed his daughter because of her love for a Muslim, police say

On the day after her high school graduation party, Henriette Karra, 17, confided in a relative her plans to become a Muslim for her boyfriend.

Henriette, an Arab Israeli, knew that her Christian family in Ramle, a city in central Israel, would be furious. Her parents had made it clear during Henriette’s year of dating her Muslim boyfriend, also an Arab Israeli, that they considered the relationship a shame to the family.

On June 13, she told her relative of her plans to be with him. The relative then called her father, telling him Henriette’s intentions.

That day, police found Henriette dead in her parents’ kitchen, with multiple stab wounds to her neck.

On Sunday, about a month after Henriette’s death, Israeli police charged her father, Sami Karra, with murder, Israeli media outlets reported. Authorities allege Karra killed his daughter over his “vehement opposition” to her relationship with the young Muslim man and her intentions to convert to Islam for him, the Jerusalem Post reported, citing a criminal indictment.


Father admits to killing daughter for converting to Islam

Police on Saturday were questioning a man and his brother in connection with the murder of a 26-year-old woman, who allegedly converted from Christianity to Islam, in Ajloun, 70km northwest of Amman.

The victim died after receiving several blows to the head with a wooden stick and a rock in a forest in Khirbet Wahadneh on May 1, a senior official source said.

“The victim’s father headed to a police station on Thursday evening and turned himself in, declaring that he killed his daughter,” the source told The Jordan Times.

In his initial confession to the police, the father reportedly said that “his daughter announced her conversion to Islam three months before the incident and therefore he murdered her.”


Couple who converted to Islam ‘killed by family’

A Christian couple, who recently married of their own will and converted to Islam, was gunned down by family members in South Punjab in yet another case of honour killing.

The incident took place in a Christian colony in Kalore Kot, a small town in Bhaker distinct late Thursday night.

According to police sources, Kalsoom Bibi, daughter of Irshad Masih and Muhammad Bilal, son of Ashraf Masih, were killed on the spot after Kalsoom’s brother Imran opened fire on them.

Polygamy, child brides (over 600 million Muslim women were married off as children), no rights for women at all (many are imprisoned in their home for months at a time, especially if they are particularly attractive), decapitation for sexual sins like adultery or homosexuality, genetic mutilation is very common in Islamic countries to discourage women from straying, and no public protests against the religion or government.

Polygamy, Female Genital Mutilation, and child marriages are are not exclusive to Islam.

Polygamy is rare in most Islamic countries, and in countries where Polygamy is most common, religion isn't a determining factor.

Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) predates the arrival of Islam in Egypt and it's quite possible this is the region of the world the practice originated in.

Egyptian mummies show women infibulated and this is supported by a Greek papyrus in the British Museum dated 163 BC. A Greek historian and geographer in the second-century BC reported that a group along the eastern coast of the Red Sea cut their women in “Egyptian style” and that another group “cut off in infancy with razors the whole portion that others circumcise”. Curiously, today FGM is referred to as “Pharaonic circumcisions” (i.e. Egyptian) in Sudan and “Sudanese circumcision” in Egypt.
What are the origins and reasons for FGM?28 Too Many

The exact origin of female genital mutilation (FGM) remains unclear. Some scholars have proposed Ancient Egypt (present-day Sudan and Egypt) as its site of origin, noting the discovery of circumcised mummies from fifth century BC. Other scholars theorize that the practice spread across the routes of the slave trade, extending from the western shore of the Red Sea to the southern, western African regions, or spread from the Middle to Africa via Arab traders.
https://med.virginia.edu/family-medicine/wp-content/uploads/sites/285/2017/01/Llamas-Paper.pdf

A Greek papyrus dated 163 B.C. mentioned the operation being performed on girls in Memphis, Egypt, at the age when they received their dowries, supporting theories that FGM originated as a form of initiation of young women.
How Did Female Genital Mutilation Begin?

Recent studies have shown that some 90% of Egyptian women have been circumcised. The practice is common among Muslim as well as Christian families in Egypt and other African countries, but is rare in the Arab world. It is believed to be part of an ancient Egyptian rite of passage…

The report goes on to discuss the prevalence of FGM among Coptic Christian and Muslim women in the governate of Minya, in Upper Egpyt, using data collected between 1995 and 1997.

…a slightly higher percentage of Muslim than Christian mothers were circumcised at the time of interview (99% vs. 96%).
UNHCR Web Archive (PDF)


FGM also takes place in western countries.

When and where is this barbaric practice perpetrated? Right now. In parts of Africa, the Middle East and Asia. And right here in Kentucky

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates that there are 513,000 women and girls in the United States who have undergone or are at risk of undergoing female genital mutilation. According to the Population Reference Bureau, an estimated 1,845 of them are right here in Kentucky. The tragedy of these numbers is unavoidable when you consider the pain, fear and betrayal a girl experiences when she is cut. Even one girl is too many.

One of us is a survivor of this horrific practice.

Born and raised in a white, Christian household in the United States, I (Jennifer) was sent on a long plane ride by my parents for a “special trip.” As a 5-year-old, I was led down dark stairs by strangers, held down, and my mouth covered. Without anesthesia, I was cut.



Child marriages occur in the United States.

Between 2000 and 2015 there were 200,000 minors allowed to legally get married in the US. 5% or around 10,000 were aged 15 or younger. In one case a 74 year old man was allowed to marry a 14 year old girl.

67% of the children were aged 17.
29% of the children were aged 16.
4% of the children were aged 15.
<1% of the children were aged 14 and under.

Overall there were 51 cases of 13-year-olds getting married, and 6 cases of 12-year-olds getting married.

In the 2000-2010 period there were three Tennessee 10-year-old girls who married men aged 24, 25 and 31 in 2001. The youngest boy was an 11-year-old who married a 27-year-old woman in the same state in 2006.


As for no rights for women, decapitation for sexual sins like adultery or homosexuality, and no public protests against the religion or government. Those actions would only be found under extremist Islamic regimes that the majority of Muslims do not live under.

Now imagine living in that world where your work is around other Muslims who watch each other intently. Where socialization is forbidden with non Muslims. Where everything they own at home is inspected. Zero privacy. How can you get close to a Muslim when their world is so fenced off?

Even in some of the most closed Islamic countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia, Christians are able to interact, socialize, and work with Muslims.

One of the best exposes ever written on Muslim hypocrisy is Princess by Jean Sasson.

"Princess: A True Story of Life Behind the Veil in Saudi Arabia" by Jean Sasson is a compelling and eye-opening memoir that offers a rare glimpse into the lives of women in Saudi Arabia. The book is a firsthand account of the experiences of Sultana, a Saudi princess, who bravely shares her story of life within the royal family and the oppressive society she lives in.

Sultana's story highlights the lack of rights and freedoms that women in the country face, from being unable to drive to being subjected to forced marriages and honor killings. The book also sheds light on the impact of Wahhabism, the strict form of Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia, on the lives of women and the society as a whole.


The government of Saudi Arabia follows an extremist sect of Islam, Wahhabism, and not mainstream Islam. The vast majority of Muslims in the world don't interpret the Qur'an and other Islamic texts in the way the Saudi government does.

Wahhabism, the official religion of Saudi Arabia, is an exceptionally virulent, narrow and militant interpretation of Islam based on the teachings of an austere 18th-century preacher and scholar, Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab (1703-1792). Over time, it has morphed into an all-encompassing politico-religious theology that considers all other faith groups deviant, has no tolerance for other cultures, no respect for human rights, no love for democracy and an abiding distaste of Western values. It is harsh, puritanical, unforgiving and violent.

The ultimate goal of Wahhabism is one global community with one creed (Wahhabism) ruled by one Khalifah (ruler), presumably the House of Saud. It makes for a grand strategy not just for hegemony in the Middle East but for global domination.

Wahhabism began only 250 years ago with the movement created by fanatical preacher Muhammad Ibn Abd alWahhab. Once a fringe sect in a remote part of the Arabian peninsula, Wahhabi extremism has been given global reach through Saudi government sponsorship and money, particularly over the past quarter century as it has competed with Iran in spreading its version of the faith. With its vast oil wealth and its position as guardian of Islam’s two holiest sites, Saudi Arabia now claims to be the leading power within Islam and the protector of the faith, a belief stated in the Saudi Basic Law. Saudi Foreign Policy Adviser Adel al-Jubeir publicly states that “the role of Saudi Arabia in the Muslim world is similar to the role of the Vatican.” Even as the Saudi state asserts that it strives to keep the faith “pure” and free of innovation, it invents a new role for itself as the only legitimate authority on Islam.

Adherents of Wahhabism constitute a small minority within world Islam [Fewer than 5%],yet, Saudi Arabia is trying to assert itself as the world’s authoritative voice on Islam. Its conquest of the Hejaz in 1924 gave it control of Islam’s two holiest sites and the Hajj, the annual pilgrimage to Mecca that is one of the five pillars of Islam. This role, along with its vast oil wealth, has been used by Saudi Arabia to lay claim to being the leading power within all of Islam and the protector of the faith, a claim emphasized in the Saudi Basic Law.

 

[Richard.20.12]

This isn't true.

Interfaith marriages rarely take place in India, where Hindus comprise 79.8 percent of the population, according to the 2011 Census, and Muslims another 14.2 percent. Parents, more often than not, not only object to interfaith but also intercaste marriages.

Intercaste and inter-religious marriages are so vehemently opposed in some Hindu communities that families indulge in what is called “honor killing,” or killing the daughter (in most cases) or the son to save the family’s honor. Such is the gravity of the situation that India’s Supreme Court in 2018 issued a set of guidelines to deal with such cases, including setting up a 24×7 telephone helpline for lovers at risk from their family.


Christian Woman Killed by Relatives

A Christian woman was beaten to death with a hammer and other weapons on June 24th because of her conversion to Christianity. The murder took place in Toylanka, a village in the state of Chhattisgarh.

Since her conversion to Christ four years ago, Bindu Sodhi had faced ongoing harassment and threats from opposing Hindu relatives. On the day of the attack, she was plowing a field with members of her immediate family when they were suddenly ambushed. Facing a mob armed with axes and other weapons, Bindu's mother, brother and sister fled the area.


Man beheaded in Odisha for converting to Christianity

A Christian evangelical man was found virtually beheaded in Orissa, which many believe was a hate crime committed by Hindu fanatics because of his conversion to the faith.

The victim Anant Ram Gand, 40, was the father of five children. Shibu Thomas, the founder of the Persecution Relief network that deals with defending discriminated Christians in India, said that Gand had converted to Christianity nine months ago and had been baptized two months ago. “His conversion has attracted the ire of the villagers, mostly Hindu fanatics. They armed the Naxals who physically committed the murder,” he told Asia News.

A week before the vicious attack, seven people from the village had given Gand an ultimatum to renounce Christianity or face death...


Israeli Christian killed his daughter because of her love for a Muslim, police say

On the day after her high school graduation party, Henriette Karra, 17, confided in a relative her plans to become a Muslim for her boyfriend.

Henriette, an Arab Israeli, knew that her Christian family in Ramle, a city in central Israel, would be furious. Her parents had made it clear during Henriette’s year of dating her Muslim boyfriend, also an Arab Israeli, that they considered the relationship a shame to the family.

On June 13, she told her relative of her plans to be with him. The relative then called her father, telling him Henriette’s intentions.

That day, police found Henriette dead in her parents’ kitchen, with multiple stab wounds to her neck.

On Sunday, about a month after Henriette’s death, Israeli police charged her father, Sami Karra, with murder, Israeli media outlets reported. Authorities allege Karra killed his daughter over his “vehement opposition” to her relationship with the young Muslim man and her intentions to convert to Islam for him, the Jerusalem Post reported, citing a criminal indictment.


Father admits to killing daughter for converting to Islam

Police on Saturday were questioning a man and his brother in connection with the murder of a 26-year-old woman, who allegedly converted from Christianity to Islam, in Ajloun, 70km northwest of Amman.

The victim died after receiving several blows to the head with a wooden stick and a rock in a forest in Khirbet Wahadneh on May 1, a senior official source said.

“The victim’s father headed to a police station on Thursday evening and turned himself in, declaring that he killed his daughter,” the source told The Jordan Times.

In his initial confession to the police, the father reportedly said that “his daughter announced her conversion to Islam three months before the incident and therefore he murdered her.”


Couple who converted to Islam ‘killed by family’

A Christian couple, who recently married of their own will and converted to Islam, was gunned down by family members in South Punjab in yet another case of honour killing.

The incident took place in a Christian colony in Kalore Kot, a small town in Bhaker distinct late Thursday night.

According to police sources, Kalsoom Bibi, daughter of Irshad Masih and Muhammad Bilal, son of Ashraf Masih, were killed on the spot after Kalsoom’s brother Imran opened fire on them.



Polygamy, Female Genital Mutilation, and child marriages are are not exclusive to Islam.

Polygamy is rare in most Islamic countries, and in countries where Polygamy is most common, religion isn't a determining factor.

View attachment 356799

Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) predates the arrival of Islam in Egypt and it's quite possible this is the region of the world the practice originated in.

Egyptian mummies show women infibulated and this is supported by a Greek papyrus in the British Museum dated 163 BC. A Greek historian and geographer in the second-century BC reported that a group along the eastern coast of the Red Sea cut their women in “Egyptian style” and that another group “cut off in infancy with razors the whole portion that others circumcise”. Curiously, today FGM is referred to as “Pharaonic circumcisions” (i.e. Egyptian) in Sudan and “Sudanese circumcision” in Egypt.
What are the origins and reasons for FGM?28 Too Many

The exact origin of female genital mutilation (FGM) remains unclear. Some scholars have proposed Ancient Egypt (present-day Sudan and Egypt) as its site of origin, noting the discovery of circumcised mummies from fifth century BC. Other scholars theorize that the practice spread across the routes of the slave trade, extending from the western shore of the Red Sea to the southern, western African regions, or spread from the Middle to Africa via Arab traders.
https://med.virginia.edu/family-medicine/wp-content/uploads/sites/285/2017/01/Llamas-Paper.pdf

A Greek papyrus dated 163 B.C. mentioned the operation being performed on girls in Memphis, Egypt, at the age when they received their dowries, supporting theories that FGM originated as a form of initiation of young women.
How Did Female Genital Mutilation Begin?

Recent studies have shown that some 90% of Egyptian women have been circumcised. The practice is common among Muslim as well as Christian families in Egypt and other African countries, but is rare in the Arab world. It is believed to be part of an ancient Egyptian rite of passage…

The report goes on to discuss the prevalence of FGM among Coptic Christian and Muslim women in the governate of Minya, in Upper Egpyt, using data collected between 1995 and 1997.

…a slightly higher percentage of Muslim than Christian mothers were circumcised at the time of interview (99% vs. 96%).
UNHCR Web Archive (PDF)


FGM also takes place in western countries.

When and where is this barbaric practice perpetrated? Right now. In parts of Africa, the Middle East and Asia. And right here in Kentucky

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates that there are 513,000 women and girls in the United States who have undergone or are at risk of undergoing female genital mutilation. According to the Population Reference Bureau, an estimated 1,845 of them are right here in Kentucky. The tragedy of these numbers is unavoidable when you consider the pain, fear and betrayal a girl experiences when she is cut. Even one girl is too many.

One of us is a survivor of this horrific practice.

Born and raised in a white, Christian household in the United States, I (Jennifer) was sent on a long plane ride by my parents for a “special trip.” As a 5-year-old, I was led down dark stairs by strangers, held down, and my mouth covered. Without anesthesia, I was cut.



Child marriages occur in the United States.

Between 2000 and 2015 there were 200,000 minors allowed to legally get married in the US. 5% or around 10,000 were aged 15 or younger. In one case a 74 year old man was allowed to marry a 14 year old girl.

67% of the children were aged 17.
29% of the children were aged 16.
4% of the children were aged 15.
<1% of the children were aged 14 and under.

Overall there were 51 cases of 13-year-olds getting married, and 6 cases of 12-year-olds getting married.

In the 2000-2010 period there were three Tennessee 10-year-old girls who married men aged 24, 25 and 31 in 2001. The youngest boy was an 11-year-old who married a 27-year-old woman in the same state in 2006.


As for no rights for women, decapitation for sexual sins like adultery or homosexuality, and no public protests against the religion or government. Those actions would only be found under extremist Islamic regimes that the majority of Muslims do not live under.




Even in some of the most closed Islamic countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia, Christians are able to interact, socialize, and work with Muslims.



"Princess: A True Story of Life Behind the Veil in Saudi Arabia" by Jean Sasson is a compelling and eye-opening memoir that offers a rare glimpse into the lives of women in Saudi Arabia. The book is a firsthand account of the experiences of Sultana, a Saudi princess, who bravely shares her story of life within the royal family and the oppressive society she lives in.

Sultana's story highlights the lack of rights and freedoms that women in the country face, from being unable to drive to being subjected to forced marriages and honor killings. The book also sheds light on the impact of Wahhabism, the strict form of Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia, on the lives of women and the society as a whole.


The government of Saudi Arabia follows an extremist sect of Islam, Wahhabism, and not mainstream Islam. The vast majority of Muslims in the world don't interpret the Qur'an and other Islamic texts in the way the Saudi government does.

Wahhabism, the official religion of Saudi Arabia, is an exceptionally virulent, narrow and militant interpretation of Islam based on the teachings of an austere 18th-century preacher and scholar, Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab (1703-1792). Over time, it has morphed into an all-encompassing politico-religious theology that considers all other faith groups deviant, has no tolerance for other cultures, no respect for human rights, no love for democracy and an abiding distaste of Western values. It is harsh, puritanical, unforgiving and violent.

The ultimate goal of Wahhabism is one global community with one creed (Wahhabism) ruled by one Khalifah (ruler), presumably the House of Saud. It makes for a grand strategy not just for hegemony in the Middle East but for global domination.

Wahhabism began only 250 years ago with the movement created by fanatical preacher Muhammad Ibn Abd alWahhab. Once a fringe sect in a remote part of the Arabian peninsula, Wahhabi extremism has been given global reach through Saudi government sponsorship and money, particularly over the past quarter century as it has competed with Iran in spreading its version of the faith. With its vast oil wealth and its position as guardian of Islam’s two holiest sites, Saudi Arabia now claims to be the leading power within Islam and the protector of the faith, a belief stated in the Saudi Basic Law. Saudi Foreign Policy Adviser Adel al-Jubeir publicly states that “the role of Saudi Arabia in the Muslim world is similar to the role of the Vatican.” Even as the Saudi state asserts that it strives to keep the faith “pure” and free of innovation, it invents a new role for itself as the only legitimate authority on Islam.

Adherents of Wahhabism constitute a small minority within world Islam [Fewer than 5%],yet, Saudi Arabia is trying to assert itself as the world’s authoritative voice on Islam. Its conquest of the Hejaz in 1924 gave it control of Islam’s two holiest sites and the Hajj, the annual pilgrimage to Mecca that is one of the five pillars of Islam. This role, along with its vast oil wealth, has been used by Saudi Arabia to lay claim to being the leading power within all of Islam and the protector of the faith, a claim emphasized in the Saudi Basic Law.

Your attention to detail is admirable but I don't have the time to respond to all of it. I'll just say my points are common in the Muslim world and these things are not common outside of the Muslim world. And the whole topic is about helping Muslims that have converted to Christianity (in the western world) stay strong in their faith. Of course there are freaks that overreact and do crazy things. This happens everywhere. Mental illness is definitely a thing. The point is it's highly rare. But in the Muslim world its very, very common.

My point is for a Muslim to stay in the faith in the west they need a lot of support. That support should ideally come from ex Muslim Christians because they understand what they're going through much better than we would. A Muslim female would have to slip away with her children without anyone knowing. I suppose she could call the police for an escort. That would work I guess. But it would be far easier to leave when nobody is home except them. If they are wealthy she will go from luxury to absolutely nothing. That's really hard to accept when you have young, very dependent children who miss Daddy. I'm sure a few hoard jewelry they can sell later. It's really hard to prepare for something like this without nosy male family members finding out. So she can't prepare much. This makes leaving so much harder. Like walking off a cliff.

 

[Richard.20.12]

Joseph, I was curious if you were Muslim.

 

[Richard.20.12]

I'm a former Muslim. Exactly the kind of person you're trying to talk about, but you didn't care what I had to say and made sure I knew it.

That kind of offended me. But as a former Muslim, I do know about Islam.

I'm still leaving you to it. I have no earthly idea what your goal is. I just figured I would point out why I deleted my posts and left the thread.

Sorry about that. My point was that the challenge is not the conversion so much. Many Muslims realize how awful their religion is, how badly it treats their women, etc. But unlike other religions Islam is fiercely protective for just the reasons I listed. When your entire life is Muslim intertwined how do you break free? They don't usually allow family memories to mix with non Muslims, especially women and especially if that woman is attractive. Then they erect a veritable fence around her. Many people can say "I believe" but to maintain that faith is much harder for someone coming from an Islamic background. That's my point. My goal is to awaken people to Muslim facts, of how brutal the religion is and what they do to control those under it. 99% of westerners don't have a clue. Probably 99.9%. Christians are no better. People need to wake up. A lot of people are hurting badly and they deserve our support. Churches find it difficult to get involved because then they'll be labeled hateful and Islamophobic. So it has to be done very quietly. Nobody is talking about this. This is very different from all other religions. No other religion holds its people in such an iron fist like Islam.

 

[Richard.20.12]

I'm a former Muslim. Exactly the kind of person you're trying to talk about, but you didn't care what I had to say and made sure I knew it.

That kind of offended me. But as a former Muslim, I do know about Islam.

I'm still leaving you to it. I have no earthly idea what your goal is. I just figured I would point out why I deleted my posts and left the thread.

My goal is one thing: To encourage and support ex Muslims like you in your Christian walk. Because it's a righteous walk, well rewarded and well guided by our Creator. Can you share what area of the world you're from? Just roughly? Wondering about your background. Also how you left Islam. No need to write anything personal.

 

[JosephZ]

Joseph, I was curious if you were Muslim. Davao has a lot of Muslims there I think.

I'm Christian and work among the Muslim community in Davao and the Bangsamoro Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao. Davao City, where we are based, has a Muslim population of only around 10%, while the coastal province areas and islands found in the Sulu Archipelago that we work in have Muslim populations of between 90 and 97%.

I'll just say my points are common in the Muslim world and these things are not common outside of the Muslim world... Of course there are freaks that overreact and do crazy things. This happens everywhere. Mental illness is definitely a thing.

In Egypt, where incidents of female genital mutilation are almost equal between Christians and Muslims, the Christian mothers that allow this to be done to their daughters are mentally ill, while the Muslim mothers are doing it because they are followers of Islam. A Christian mother does this to her daughter in the United States and a Somali mother does the same, the American Christian is a freak, while the Somali Muslim did it because of her religion.

When a Christian or Hindu kills someone for leaving their religion, they are mentally ill, but when a Muslim does it, it's because they follow Islam.

A Christian man in Chad with multiple wives, where more Christians than Muslims practice polygamy, is a freak, while the Muslim man doing the same in that country is doing it because he follows Islam.


Do the above statements sound like fair assessments between Muslims and non-Muslims?

I'll just say my points are common in the Muslim world and these things are not common outside of the Muslim world. And the whole topic is about helping Muslims that have converted to Christianity (in the western world) stay strong in their faith. Of course there are freaks that overreact and do crazy things. This happens everywhere. Mental illness is definitely a thing. The point is it's highly rare. But in the Muslim world its very, very common.

Polygamy (Rare among Muslims): Fewer than 1% of Muslim men in Indonesia (242,700,000 Muslims), Pakistan (233,000,000), Bangladesh (150,800,000), Egypt (90,000,000), Iran (82,500,000), Afghanistan (37,025,000), and Saudi Arabia (31,535,000) live in polygamous households. The percentage is higher in some Sub-Sahara African countries, but the Muslim populations of those countries are much lower and polygamy is practiced in similar numbers by non-Muslims.

Female genital mutilation (Practiced by Muslims and non-Muslims alike):

• 90% of Egyptian women have been circumcised. The practice is common among Muslim as well as Christian families in Egypt and other African countries, but is rare in the Arab world.
• Eritrea, 98% of Muslim women have undergone FGM, but 88% of Catholic women have also undergone it, as have 84% of women belonging to other religious communities.
• Similarly, in Mali, 89% of Muslim women, 84% of Christian women and 86% of animist women have undergone the practice. (UNICEF, 2013)
• In Niger, Tanzania and Nigeria, FGM is more widespread in Christian communities than in any other religious group.
• In Niger, more than 50% of the girls and women who have undergone the practice are Christian and Muslim women account for only a few percent (UNICEF, 2013).
• In Burkina Faso, religion is not used to justify the practice of FGM, which is practiced within all religious communities. (copfgm.org)

Child marriage (Practiced by Muslims and non-Muslims alike):

Top 10 countries with the highest absolute numbers of child marriage.

• 222,400,000 India
• 43,400,000 Bangladesh
• 36,700,000 China
• 32,100,000 Indonesia
• 23,700,000 Nigeria
• 21,900,000 Brazil
• 20,500,000 Pakistan
• 19,900,000 Ethiopia
• 10,400,000 Mexico
• 10,400,000 Iran (girlsnotbrides.org)

Killed for leaving Islam (Rare): There are no verses in the Qur'an that call for death for apostates, and Hadith narrations that mention apostasy do not show that death is a punishment for apostates. It is, however, for those apostates who commit treason or start a rebellion against the Muslim ummah. Even in countries that have a death penalty for apostasy, those charged are rarely put to death.

There's no denying that many ex-Muslims experience social pressure, threats of violence, or even death for leaving Islam, most of this is only verbal abuse and rarely evolves to a point of becoming physical. And while there are reports of Muslims being killed for converting to Christianity or leaving the faith reported in any given year (dozens? maybe 100), the number is miniscule when compared to the hundreds of thousands of Muslims that are leaving Islam each year.

 

[Richard.20.12]

Reply to JosephZ:

> Do the above statements sound like fair assessments between Muslims and non-Muslims?

Sorry but you are twisting my words. I can’t understand why you want to support Islam and choose to ignore the obvious facts that are plainly out there.
I’ve never heard of anyone outside of Islam doing these horrific things. And if they are done they are extremely rare, signs of mental illness. Whereas in the Islamic world they are normal, accepted and done often. That’s the striking difference. Maybe the Muslim community in your area is very mild. In hard core areas it’s not and these things do occur often. You mention polygamy being rare in some countries but those are all very poor countries. They can’t afford multiple wives in those areas. My point is if a man CAN have multiple wives he almost always DOES have multiple wives in Islam. Saudi Arabia is a perfect example. Some women commit suicide when this happens because they were a new wife added to the harem and were forced to and were young and he was very old or an existing wife who sunk into depression. A lot of women commit suicide in strong Muslim countries because of the oppressiveness of the religion.

And as a Christian you should know that polygamy is never OK with God. You know this. So if someone does it they are most certainly not Christian. I certainly wouldn’t use Catholic stats in any talk about Christianity. They do bizarre things and their followers rarely read the Bible so are often led astray. In Africa they do all kinds of bizarre practices so obviously these things aren’t Christian but brought on by cultural pressure. You’re spitting out these stats that have no relevance to the conversation. Like a highly educated, very knowledgeable expert that has no common sense because of a lack of life experience. There’s no relevancy to what you say. You’ve obviously had a very good education and write exceedingly well. Or you read endlessly. I feel like I’m conversing with a lawyer here. But it must be relevant.

And in very poor countries like India, Pakistan or Bangladesh poverty will spur parents to marry off their daughters. And again, never true Christian people. It’s unthinkable. Again this has no relevance to this conversation.

“Killed for leaving Islam”: Do you think the threat of this wouldn’t affect people? Again that’s my point. And death IS a very real issue in Saudi Arabia and other areas. When you have money you have power and can steamroll over everyone else that doesn’t have that power and influence.

I suspect you live amongst very mild Muslims and have a warped view of Islam. It’s a lot worse than you think.

So how did you feel about Oct 7 in Israel? Was that a logical protest to perceived injustices they felt Israel had brought against them? You know....injustices like all kinds of help they diverted to building tunnels and acquiring untold numbers of guns, rockets and artillery. How they didn’t build schools and hospitals with the billions of dollars given to them. Instead, burrowing underground like rodents for protection against the return fire they knew would occur when they fired untold numbers of rockets at Israel. Just how do you feel about that?

 

[Richard.20.12]

To JosephZ
If you are working with Muslims, helping them to see the light I applaud you. But you don't say what you do, if your work is humanitarian or Christian or both. Feeding someone just to have them go to hell has always seemed pointless to me. Then again many would argue the longer they live the more chance they have of finding salvation. I still feel the money/time/work should go to the message. Plus so many people get humanitarian help that don't need it. I'm sure it's different there but here in Canada almost nobody really needs it. They get welfare and then lie around watching TV and smoking all day. I've lived around these people for years and have seen it on a daily basis.