Conversion to Islam

[paleodoxy]

The purpose of the thread was merely to inform you of my decision. I'm not interested in debates.

In that case, you can leave now.

We have (a) repeatedly fulfilled the Biblical mandate to gently admonish our brother (more than the once or twice required), and (b) we are now under its injunction to stay far away from apostates from Orthodoxy.

We are ready to embrace you again should you return.

I am sorry (truly) to have to say it, but this is what God requires.

If you do not leave now, I will personally protest your presence here.

One more post from you, and you will be reported.

 

[Michael G]

The purpose of the thread was merely to inform you of my decision. I'm not interested in debates.

As an Orthodox Christian it is my duty to remind you there is one unforgivable sin and that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Conversion from Orthodoxy to Islam is exactly that, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. I will pray for your soul.

 

[Silentchapel]

Person rejecting the Holy Spirit couldn't care less what the Holy Spirit thinks.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Michael,

I'm not an anti-Muslim fanatic.

Are you insinuating something? Because if you are, you are on the ball, I am an anti-Islam fanatic. Caught the difference?

In fact, as I'm sure Bushmaster and some others can tell you, they often come into conflict to me because they think I'm too pro-Islam.

Don't worry, I won't tell him nothing about you. Things about you are pretty obvious.

I really do have a soft spot in my hard for the Muslims culture and yes, even the Islamic faith.

You are either ignorant or you don't know what you are talking about, you have a soft spot in your heart for the Islamic faith? What the heck is this supposed to mean? A faith that teaches its followers that Christ is not Divine? That is blasphemous, you have a soft spot in your heart for blasphemy?

I think it's a beautiful religion with a proud and fascinating history.

Fascinating history? You are joking, do you know the amount of battles fought in order to advance islam out of arabian peninsula within the first 100 years?

It's been the focus of my studies and will probably continue to be.

No problem if you want to learn how muslims paint a vase or a ceramic piece, but you ain't clear either.

Unlike many people here, I'm not afraid of Islam. I'm not afraid of Muslims. I'm not afraid of Muslim countries

Are you really from China? Are you living in China? Then no problem for you, please tell what you just said above to a Danish citizen after September of 2005...

and I don't buy into the media-driven propaganda that in my mind more closely resembles the anti-Semitic campaigns of pre-WW2 Germany than any serious attempts to investigate or learn about Islam and Islamic cultures.

Oh, here is one favorite for you, in case you are not aware of the situation in middle east...

With that said, I would never become a Muslim. Not because I think Islam is violent or evil or whatever people may throw at it and certainly not because of some stupid cartoons,

I am so glad that my cartoons are working. Because they are bothering the ones who reject the truth of them.

I won't because a Muslim for the same reason I won't become a Mormon or a Hindu or an evangelical Protestant.

Wow, that doesn't make any sense, the reasons you are not becoming a muslim can NOT be same with an evangelical Christian. They are not in the same category.

Not because I have anything against them or think their evil or stupid, but because when you really look into it, it simply doesn't show itself to be the truth faith.

Show itself?

I won't try to scare you or tell you that you will be killed if you change your mind because unless you are planning on moving to Saudi Arabia that isn't that much of a concern.

You want me to arrange you a trip to Indonesia, Nigeria, Sudan, Iran, Afghanistan and more?? So you can find out what happens to apostates there?

Unless I've missed something I think you live in a Western country, so unless you really get into the wrong crowd that's probably more of a scare tactic than reality.

Here is one misconception you have about the faith you have a soft spot in your heart. Islam is a religion that is based on community, this community is called ummah, ummah decides the person's life and world view, and ummah judges the individual based on the islamic faith. In some countries, this muslim community will immediately punish you, in some others, you won't be able to find a job, you won't be admitted to common places like restaurants, movie theathers what not... So once you are in, you will do what you are expected of, and when you say, ok I want out, they will slap you on the face, you can't turn your back to allah.

I know plenty of ex-Muslims, and non of them are dead.

Why, because they fleed?

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Scott,

I am not suprised at your apparent decision. I have to say that it makes me very, very glad that the Orthodox Church encourages a lengthy, studious catechumenate. The only thing that would make this situation worse would be if you had actually participated in the sacraments of the Orthodox Church and then left. I will continue praying for you. You and the other inquirers of TAW are often in my prayers. The Way is narrow and hard. Jesus told us that the Word would fall on some soil, but not bear fruit

Finally, please reconsider entering into marriage with an Orthodox Christian. It is much to simplistic to conclude that because Islam allows you to marry her, she can marry you. Orthodox Christians cannot marry non-Christians. Orthodox Christians must be married sacramentally by a priest. Orthodox Christians must raise their children in the Church.

Orthodox Christians may be married in an Orthodox ceremony to a non-Orthodox Christian provided the non-Orthodox party had been baptized with water and "in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." Orthodox Christians may not be married in an Orthodox ceremony to non-baptized individuals, however.

You'll be renouncing your baptism if you convert to Islam, so you'll no longer "count" as a baptised non-Orthodox Christian.

Simply put, one who has not entered the life of the Church through Baptism, Chrismation, and the Eucharist -- and who as such does not acknowledge Jesus Christ as his or her Lord, God and Savior -- would reduce the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony to pure external form or ritual since he or she, by not acknowledging Jesus Christ, cannot properly seal his or her marriage in Him.

In other words, marriage in Jesus Christ presumes that one accepts Him and believes in Him. Why would an individual who does not accept Christ want to seal his or her marriage in Christ? A non-baptized individual who truly desires to partake of the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony in the Orthodox Church should do so out of a desire to seal all he or she does in Jesus Christ. It is inconceivable that one would pledge their love to another person in the name and presence of a God he or she does not believe in.

Further, will you tolerate her icons in your home? Since you tend toward fundamentalism, I am sure you know or will soon learn that according to Islam, angels will not enter a dwelling with pictures of human faces displayed (a direct smack against Orthodox iconography BTW). Will you allow her to pray with your children, knowing that she is teaching them that Jesus is God and should be worshipped? Will you forbid her from taking your children to Liturgy because you know that they will be kissing icons? Will you cringe when she crosses herself? How will you respect her faith when she worships Jesus and invokes the Theotokos and the saints? Islam and Christianity cannot both be fully lived out under the same roof. One of you will have to agree not to practice your faith in its fullness.

Peace,
Monica

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Because it seems to be the truth. To worship God (glorious and exalted is He) alone and not to associate partners with Him in worship. No one has the right to be invoked, supplicated, prayed to or shown any act of worship but God alone.

Michael, don't Christians also worship 'God alone'?

 

[Greg the byzantine]

Hey dude. We will pray for you.

Obviously your fiancee cannot be a faithful Christian and yet raise her children muslim. Poor dear I will pray for her too.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Yes my friend, they are stupid. No one is going to be convinced by some cartoon that oversimplifies and polarizes.

Who is being convinced here? Michael/Scott? Do you think I placed the cartoons here to convince you or him? Tell me one thing you find factually wrong ABOUT the cartoons? One lie in them, then I will pull them down.

If you want to share those among your buddies or put them on your locker, be my guest, but using them as a tool to convince someone not to convert to Islam is like using Jack Chick against Orthodoxy.

I am actually sharing them with my buddies who post here in TAW. Again, you have misunderstood the purpose of them, I am curious if you have a defense against them though, considering the facts they reflect.

Have a little more class and at engage him in conversation. If Orthodoxy is true then you don't need to resort to childish cartoons. Why don't you just call him a poopy-head and stuck your tongue out.

I can punch him on his nose if that will do? How, though, I am wondering, you are going to miss my previous post where I said, this is not about engaging him, nor trying to reason with him... I asked, does he seem to be interested in conversation? This is the third time he is spouting this nonsense. He doesn't respond to conversations. But defends places like Answering-Christianity.com against us, have you ever checked that website, go on, see what your beloved muslims write about stuff you actually believe.

And if they are political then once again, laugh at them with your friends, but they have no place in this thread and probably do more harm to Michael's soul than good.

Are you not aware than he had made his decision? but yes, we did laugh at them, the tragicomic depictions of them.

Maybe he doesn't listen because we look like idiots when we use Jack Chick-esqe arguments to convince him Islam is wrong.

I can take you and him up, without using cartoons, wrong is wrong, and Islam is wrong.

How much attention to you give Protestants who point you to those stupid anti-Orthodox websites and tell you that Orthodox worship Saints?

This is irrelevant, those websites twist the truth of Orthodoxy, by not understanding the facts and history about it, the cartoons do not do that, it is factual that arabs danced in the streets after September the 11th.

When they do that I think, "this person is afraid of the truth, they think they can't argue against me and so they have to resort cheap attacks without actually addressing anything to avoid engaging me."

Show me a cheap attack that didn't include anything factual in my posts to him.

I believe in Orthodoxy and I believe Islam is a false religion. Because of that, I can have a conversation about Islam without resorting to attacks. Islam cannot stand up to Orthodoxy. It simply can't. Therefore there is no need to attack it on a personal level. We don't need cartoons and we don't need hate. We have the truth, we have Christ's love, and we have the Holy Spirit and to approach any falsity with anything other than that is, in my opinion, offensive to Orthodoxy.

Ok. Islam can not stand up to Orthodoxy, correct, are you ready to answer the misconceptions of muslims from the Quran?

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

In that case, you can leave now.

We have (a) repeatedly fulfilled the Biblical mandate to gently admonish our brother (more than the once or twice required), and (b) we are now under its injunction to stay far away from apostates from Orthodoxy.

We are ready to embrace you again should you return.

I am sorry (truly) to have to say it, but this is what God requires.

If you do not leave now, I will personally protest your presence here.

One more post from you, and you will be reported.

THANK YOU!!!

 

[E.C.]

Hey, Greg's back.




Islam Micheal, in all honesty, sincerity and truthfulness: why?


In all the 1400+ years of Islam's existence, it has done nothing but paint the world with the blood of Christians. Does this mean that every last Muslim on the face of the earth is evil? No. But because of the theology of Islam and all sorts of crazy beliefs written in books like the Koran: there are huge holes in Islam and those holes are usually filled with hatred and persecution towards non-Muslims.

Great examples of Muslim on Christian persecution: Armenia, Greece, Palestine, Egypt, parts of Ethiopia, Azerbaijan, Spain, France, Albania and many others.
Even on youtube, there is the ten minute or so clip of Albanian Muslims burning, looting and possibly even defecating an Orthodox church.
Whenever there was Muslim conquest in history, it was always followed by horrific accounts of extreme brutality. The sort of which will make any human being's hair stand on end.


If you are really becoming Muslim, than why have the Orthodox faith icon?

If you are really becoming Muslim, than have you said "There is no god but Allah and M______ed is his prophet"? According to some Muslim teaching somewhere, if any person says that statement they are automatically a Muslim and if that person does not live by it than they are to be killed.

There is little love in that religion's teachings.

 

[Dorothea]

Though the Church would prefer that all Orthodox Christians would marry Orthodox Christians, it does not insist on it in practice. Out of its concern for the spiritual welfare of members who wish to marry a non-Orthodox Christian, the Church will conduct a "mixed marriage." For this purpose, a "non-Orthodox Christian" is a member of the Roman Catholic Church, or one of the many Protestant Churches which believe in and baptize in the name of the Holy Trinity. This means that such mixed marriages may be performed in the Orthodox Church. However, the Orthodox Church does not perform marriages between Orthodox Christians and persons belonging to other religions, such as Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, or any sectarian and cult group, such as Christian Science, Mormonism, or the followers of Rev. Moon.

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7101.asp

 

[seashale76]

This thread needs to die. Michael flippantly informed all and sundry of his decision, started a fire storm that pitted TAW members against each other, is heading off putting his own soul in danger, and is probably negatively affecting lurkers out there. Let's all pray for him and be done with it.

 

[zhilan]

Bushmaster,

If you have issues with me take it up elsewhere, this thread isn't about that.

I don't want Michael to become Muslim anymore than you do, I just think you're methods are unproductive and likely damaging. And I don't believe that Orthodoxy needs to resort to [SIZE=-1]ad hominem attacks or cartoons to defend itself and I believe that doing so insults the Holy Church.

I understand that you have personal issues with Islam and that's your own business. However, the purpose of this thread is not for you to post your Jack Chick-esque cartoons or to bash on Islam but to reach out to a brother who is struggling and hopefully reach him before he makes a huge mistake.

The fact that you try to twist my words into me somehow supporting Michael's conversion or being pro-Islam (as in putting it anywhere near the level of Orthodoxy) is offensive to me. Why are you responding to my posts instead of Michael's? Why do you feel the need to refute my attempt to dissuade Michael's apostasy? Do you really think that your posts are going to warm his heart towards Christ or Orthodoxy? How many people are converted by cartoon attacks on their beliefs?

I'm not here to debate with you, I'm hear to let Michael know that he can talk to me about his decision without having to go on the defensive or being attacked and hear the reasons from someone who has no bone to pick as to why I believe this is a mistake. So please, just drop this a focus our prayers towards Michael rather than attacking your fellow Orthodox who are (at least I hope, your motives are not entirely clear) working towards the same goal.

Edit: On further reading your post I see that your motives are not helping Michael or reaching out to him, in which case I would ask you to remove those cartoons and post them in a seperate thread for you to share your with TAW buddies.

Edit Part 2: Stop trying to offer to "take me up" as if I was in ANY SENSE OF THE WORD trying to make claims that the Koran or Islam is correct, if you actually read what I said my entire point is that ISLAM IS A FALSE RELIGION and I do not believe in it, so please, drop it, and leave your personal issues elsewhere.
[/SIZE]

 

[RobNJ]

OK.... Everybody take a few deep breaths before hitting "submit post"
The mods are getting their inboxes clogged

Play nice

 

[Greg the byzantine]

This thread needs to die. Michael flippantly informed all and sundry of his decision, started a fire storm that pitted TAW members against each other, is heading off putting his own soul in danger, and is probably negatively affecting lurkers out there. Let's all pray for him and be done with it.

 

[DarkNLovely]

[/B]
She wouldn't. I know her too well. She keeps saying that if I break up with her (I swore on the Bible that I wouldn't) she won't marry anyone and just stay single.

Islam allows Muslim men to marry Jewish and Christian women. She isn't baptized yet, but the requirement according to Islam to be one of the "People of the Book" is that she must believe (without doubts) in:

1. God (Glorious and Exalted is He)
2. [/COLOR]A recognized revealed Book.
3. A recognized Prophet.

My girlfriend believes in all three, so we are able to get married. However, what would happen if we married Islamically and she then got baptized in the Orthodox Church?

Here is a great tid-bit of wisdom fom that wonderful Biblical scholar and theologion of the church known as William Shakespeare, "Frailty, thy name is "woman"! My mom thought she knew my dad for 30 years. She didn't. Please don't be so convinced. If she grows toward Christ, she may grow away from you. I think it's wonderful that you are in love, bt you may have your head in the clouds MikeArch. Just realize what BOTH of your descisions will do to your relationship.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

I have never heard of anyone that said such a thing and later changed their mind. No wait! I have. Many, many, many times. If, God willing, she grows in her love of Christ and His Church, she will come to resent you pulling her away, especially if you continue to jump from religion to religion as you are wont to do.

Unless he puts Quran in application and "slightly" BEAT his wife for her disobedience...

 

[DarkNLovely]

Hey1 I think it's time for a sing-along!

Sing everybody!:

Ebony and Ivory
Live together in perfect harmony
Side by side on my piano keyboard
Oh, Lord why don't we?...............

 

[ConanTheLibrarian]

This thread needs to die. Michael flippantly informed all and sundry of his decision, started a fire storm that pitted TAW members against each other, is heading off putting his own soul in danger, and is probably negatively affecting lurkers out there. Let's all pray for him and be done with it.

I'll second that. I drop by here every so often, mainly to see if Bushmaster has posted any updates about himself. It's hard not to see threads like this as a waste of time, if someone has already made up their mind. We're not going to convince them, and will only succeed in making ourselves upset. Our time on this earth is too short.

Now I need to get on to something productive namely, getting in my morning prayer before heading off to work.

 

[Jacob4707]

22 years old.

Ah, to be young and foolish again!

That wonderful age/stage when you think you know everything, yet really know nothing.*

* Unless, of course, your name happens to be Bill Gates.