Conversion therapy

[honey badger]

Wrong analogy - the analogy you propose applies to a sinful act. Lovingly supporting a brother or sister that wants to return to their birth gender is not a sin and no one is harmed.

On the second point I was referring to lovingly supporting a brother or a sister who wants to return to their birth gender. Making a law that will make this a crime should never get the support of the church.

I thought this would be obvious.

Can we let the reader decide now, as the conversation has become somewhat circular?

when God is not at the center of any discussion it is a futile affair ... like a dog chasing its own tail ...

 

[honey badger]

But you are making blatantly inaccurate statements.

The law is not proposing to ban "lovingly supporting a brother or sister that wants to return to their birth gender."

It is proposing to ban people trying to change someone's gender identity (or sexual orientation). That is not in any way the same thing. Moreover, given that such attempts have been shown to be both ineffective and harmful, it could very well be argued that conversion therapy is a sinful act.

; ... anything that is not of faith is sin.

 

[seeking.IAM]

We are 21 pages in to this discussion and I have no patience (forgive me) to go back through posts to find this out. Has anyone posted a link to the proposed law OP is discussing? Perhaps actually reading the language of what is trying to be done might be clarifying.

 

[hedrick]

We are 21 pages in to this discussion and I have no patience (forgive me) to go back through posts to find this out. Has anyone posted a link to the proposed law OP is discussing? Perhaps actually reading the language of what is trying to be done might be clarifying.

I looked at news articles. It appears that a party has expressed the intention to pass a law, but there’s not an actual text.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I looked at news articles. It appears that a party has expressed the intention to pass a law, but there’s not an actual text.

Thank you. So the dither is over what we think they might do more than what they are doing.

 

[Quartermaine]

Still no one has specified in detail what those practices are and meantime genuine ministry will be banned.

Which churches, which practices - detail please.

the details are part of the actual legislation Health Legislation Amendment Act right there for anyone to read

 

[NerdGirl]

Thank you. So the dither is over what we think they might do more than what they are doing.

I love a good dither.

 

[NerdGirl]

the details are part of the actual legislation Health Legislation Amendment Act right there for anyone to read

Which section?

 

[Quartermaine]

I am understanding only too well.

Believe what you want - no problem

Act on that belief and you will be arrested.

what a load of bull.

believe what you want but if you choose to falsely represent yourself as a mental health or medical professional or if you choose to engage in "therapy" that is known to be not just ineffective but actively damaging AND choose to false represent that "therapy" as valid then there will be consequences to your choices.

 

[Quartermaine]

Nonsense - transformed by the renewing of the mind - no longer Homosexual or trans. Happily hetro - married with children - fully integrated into the church as a healed individual.

Sounds like your God cant do this but mine can.

a happy hetero that won't or can't say that they are heterosexual.

 

[nolidad]

so it seems the answer to my question 'what textbooks still define orientation as the gender what prefers to have sex with?' is....I'm sure there are some somewhere.

Well I was referring to older books. I haven't looked at newer texts so I don't know if they have changed the definition!

In the 1970's homosexuality was defined in many textbooks as aberrant sexual activity, now it is not. I don't know if the newest texts and manuals still define orientation as sexual "appetite" and identity as what you identify as as separate

 

[Carl Emerson]

what a load of bull.

believe what you want but if you choose to falsely represent yourself as a mental health or medical professional or if you choose to engage in "therapy" that is known to be not just ineffective but actively damaging AND choose to false represent that "therapy" as valid then there will be consequences to your choices.

Correct but the definition of the 'Therapy' is very broad and will include getting along side and supporting an individual who wants to transition from gay back to straight. This will be a crime.

 

[seeking.IAM]

the details are part of the actual legislation Health Legislation Amendment Act right there for anyone to read

Thank you. That is helpful to read. I just did a scan but Part 5, 213H seems to apply only to "A person who is health service provider..." It refers you to a dead link to see the definition of "health service provider." Is there any evidence (don't want to read it all if someone else already has) that it broadens it to those who are not health service providers or they have a wide definition of who is a health service provider?

 

[Carl Emerson]

a happy hetero that won't or can't say that they are heterosexual.

Ref Post #384 happily married hetero with children.
'
I'm fine if you dont want to believe it - that is your choice.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Thank you. That is helpful to read. I just did a scan but Part 5, 213H seems to apply only to "A person who is health service provider..." It refers you to a dead link to see the definition of "health service provider." Is there any evidence (don't want to read it all if someone else already has) that it broadens it to those who are not health service providers or they have a wide definition of who is a health service provider?

I think the broad definition of the 'therapy' is also a concern.

 

[hedrick]

the details are part of the actual legislation Health Legislation Amendment Act right there for anyone to read

That’s for Quuensland. I believe they are part of Australia. The OP is about a proposal for New Zealand.

 

[Quartermaine]

Well I was referring to older books. I haven't looked at newer texts so I don't know if they have changed the definition!

In the 1970's homosexuality was defined in many textbooks as aberrant sexual activity, now it is not. I don't know if the newest texts and manuals still define orientation as sexual "appetite" and identity as what you identify as as separate

yeah some books used to describe black people in pretty horrible and hateful ways too.

 

[Quartermaine]

Correct but the definition of the 'Therapy' is very broad and will include getting along side and supporting an individual who wants to transition from gay back to straight. This will be a crime.

An actual therapist would tell that person the truth, that people don't change, that self hate never leads anywhere good. An actual therapist would realize that someone wanting such a transition has spent years being horribly abused and that is the problem.

 

[Quartermaine]

Thank you. That is helpful to read. I just did a scan but Part 5, 213H seems to apply only to "A person who is health service provider..." It refers you to a dead link to see the definition of "health service provider." Is there any evidence (don't want to read it all if someone else already has) that it broadens it to those who are not health service providers or they have a wide definition of who is a health service provider?

a health service provider is a professional in the medical or social fields. Note it is not a pastoral care. the issue here is when the latter represents him/her self as a professional in health care and presented false information. Its all about providing information about conversion therapy and how it is not based on evidence and how it is known to be actively harmful

 

[Quartermaine]

Ref Post #384 happily married hetero with children.

do you think he is the first gay man to hide in a straight marriage?