Conversion therapy

JacksBratt · Oct 6, 2020

Quartermaine said:
gender dysphoria is is the distress and anxiety a person feels due to a mismatch between their gender identity and their sex assigned at birth. and that anxiety is almost universally from outside the person.

Its not the mismatch that is the problem but the anxiety it causes. So ethical and effective treatment relies on reducing that anxiety, dealing with outside factors and developing coping mechanisms along with self acceptance.

of course gender dysphoria exists and it is treatable. But you aren't talking about addressing gender dysphoria you are talking about coercing individuals to conform to your preconceived notions of gender and identity.

"my" preconceived notions of gender identity? Really?

The only place that these people are the sex that they believe.. is in their head.

If I was to identify as a fish.. you would call me crazy.. yet they are no more, in reality.. the opposite sex.. than I am a fish.

It is a disservice to just go ahead and agree with them and perpetuate their confusion.

This whole world is gone mad.

We have people who think that they hear voices.. do we tell them to listen to them.. that they are real?

We have people who think that they need to wash their hands 10 times every hour.. not 9 times.. but 10 times.. do we tell them that this is normal and encourage them?

We have people who check their door to make sure it is locked.. every hour.. Do we tell them that this is perfectly normal.. for them?

We have people who think it's OK to have sex with 8 year olds..... OH.. Ya.. that's the next one.

It's a slippery slope.

JacksBratt · Oct 6, 2020

Anthony2019 said:
I think that one of the reasons that conversion therapy is unethical is that in the majority of cases it is not carried out with proper consent. For consent to be valid, it has to be both voluntary and informed.
I suspect that most people seeking conversion therapy do not do so out of their own volition, but because they feel pressured to do so by an influencing group or individual. They are also not given the full facts and evidence so they can weigh things up and make an informed decision.

Well, put it this way... if you have someone that doesn't want to work .... they won't work.
Someone who wants to keep drinking... will keep drinking.
Someone who continually lies.. will keep lying.
Someone who keeps robbing banks.. will keep robbing banks.
Someone who keeps speeding and driving dangerously.. will keep doing it.
Someone who keeps over eating.. will keep overeating.

Anyone... . who believes in doing anything.. ..who doesn't what to change.... will not change and it will be painful and a hopeless struggle to try.

If someone is confused about their gender and they have no desire to change... trying to change them... against their will... will be harmful to everyone and a waste of time and money.

Just as it would be to try and stop an alcoholic, even when they are wrecking their life.. until they want to change.. they never will.

Carl Emerson · Oct 6, 2020

WrappedUpinHisLove3 said:
I

I respectfully disagree. God found Sodoms lack of hospitality so abominable that he destroyed her

That was described as 'withdrawing ones hand from the poor'. In other words indifference to those in poverty.

I really don't thing it was a matter of refusing to take the poor into their homes.

It is a common fact that lavish lifestyles breed boredom, which breeds immorality. It was rife in South Africa when I lived there.

Quartermaine · Oct 6, 2020

Pathfinder627 said:
If you're trying to be careless here because "tattoos" are in Leviticus, then lust and sexual immorality aren't signs of God's people in either Old and New Testaments. It's not just an Old Testament thing.

Or if you're point is that morals don't matter at all, then why are you even a Christian? Your profile says "Non-Denom". Or is that just some trick for you to scoot by and post in Christian Only forums? People have a general expectation of the bare minimum of basic points with who they interact with here.

if you are going to use Leviticus to condemn minorities then expect it put back on you

Junia · Oct 6, 2020

JacksBratt said:
"my" preconceived notions of gender identity? Really?

The only place that these people are the sex that they believe.. is in their head.

If I was to identify as a fish.. you would call me crazy.. yet they are no more, in reality.. the opposite sex.. than I am a fish.

It is a disservice to just go ahead and agree with them and perpetuate their confusion.

This whole world is gone mad.

We have people who think that they hear voices.. do we tell them to listen to them.. that they are real?

We have people who think that they need to wash their hands 10 times every hour.. not 9 times.. but 10 times.. do we tell them that this is normal and encourage them?

We have people who check their door to make sure it is locked.. every hour.. Do we tell them that this is perfectly normal.. for them?

We have people who think it's OK to have sex with 8 year olds..... OH.. Ya.. that's the next one.

It's a slippery slope.

I agree . Gender dysphoria is a mental illness requiring treatment. They need to be set free so they can be happy in their own skin and loving who God made them as.

that doesn't mean they have to conform to stereotypes. a woman can enjoy football, a man can enjoy ballet. I

having said that, there are those who will say the only known treatment we have is hormones and surgery. It is very sad.

I believe Jesus can set them free. He can raise the dead. Nothing is too hard for Him. B it outside of Jesus the prognosis seems to be bleak. Many of them are suicidal before they have surgery and hormones and many remain so afterwards.

I suspect the distress they experience has a much deeper.root and the feeling of being in the wrong body is the expression of that distres s. There may be a demon at work or some emotional trauma that needs healing. Though it impossible that there is a neurological component here that hasn't been discovered.

there is a disorder where physically able bodied people are convinced they should have a limb missing. A young lady actually crippled herself into paraplegia and another woman out bleach in her eyes to blind themselves. Doctors are suspecting this is a brain issue rather than an emotional one. could this become true of trans? Quite possibly. Interestingly the paraplegic lady is also trans.

Then you have Rachel Dolezal. Although am not qua!tried to diagnose anyone I have wondered if her issue is more emotional than Neuro as her white parents were abusive and it makes sense that she wouldn't want to see herself as white when whiteness is so negative to her. Also the internalized self hatred that many abuse survivors go through....but could it be possible that some people have brains that believe they are born the wrong race?? Who knows?

Carl Emerson · Oct 6, 2020

WrappedUpinHisLove3 said:
I

You may well be right. I wish the government would be honest about their reasons for this. If their reason is protection of the vulnerable then that is excellent.

There may be positive stories about conversion therapies but I haven't heard many....Or any...

Read post #53

Junia · Oct 6, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
That was described as 'withdrawing ones hand from the poor'. In other words indifference to those in poverty.

I really don't thing it was a matter of refusing to take the poor into their homes.

It is a common fact that lavish lifestyles breed boredom, which breeds immorality. It was rife in South Africa when I lived there.

I agree there. Which is why I support all welfare programmes for the poor . I am not a socialist, I am a christian

Junia · Oct 6, 2020

Quartermaine said:
if you are going to use Leviticus to condemn minorities then expect it put back on you

I
The tired old tattoo debate...tattoos were forbidden for Israel under the levitical law. That is why they not mention in the new testament as did not apply to the early church

homosexuality is mentioned because it does still apply to believers today

Junia · Oct 6, 2020

NerdGirl123 said:
It's a disservice, and very thoughtless (perhaps unintentionally so) to claim that a person who has successfully gone through conversion or restorative therapy, is merely "suppressed". Their experience and identity is not invalidated because you don't personally agree with it.

There are many examples out there.

I
What a lovely testimony! I would love to know more about what the therapy involved...am so glad this man found it helpful

Junia · Oct 6, 2020

JacksBratt said:
I understand your view. However, where I work, there was a young lady who was "homosexual". She started a relationship with another homosexual female at our workplace.

Then, she had a sex change and considers herself a man. So, what does that do to the female homosexual that she is with? She is now with a man.. when she prefers women.

The possibilities are endless when you are on this slippery slope of corruption of the "Male and female, made He them".. combined with "He saw that it was good".

Whatever is done.. the number one thing should be love and accepting them as a human being who deserves kindness.

I

I have a Christian friend in my church who has come out as trans, dresses as a man calls herself a man's name etc I think she is taking hormones too as she is growing a small beard and it isn't PCOS (I have PCOS so I can tell it isn't PCOS type of facial hair. It isn't downy or peach fuzz all over the lower face) but she also identified as lesbian.

I don't know how that works to be honest but am guessing one could see themselves as both gay and trans. After all these are considered identity issues

Interestingly the Bible doesn't seem to address gay orientation only behaviour. Celibacy is addressed and I wonder whether some celibate gay believers could be amongst the "euncuhs" Jesus spoke of. Actual gay sex is a sin in the Bible. Identity and orientation I suspect are heart issues needing healing rather than deliberate sins

Anthony2019 · Oct 6, 2020

JacksBratt said:
Well, put it this way... if you have someone that doesn't want to work .... they won't work.
Someone who wants to keep drinking... will keep drinking.
Someone who continually lies.. will keep lying.
Someone who keeps robbing banks.. will keep robbing banks.
Someone who keeps speeding and driving dangerously.. will keep doing it.
Someone who keeps over eating.. will keep overeating.

Anyone... . who believes in doing anything.. ..who doesn't what to change.... will not change and it will be painful and a hopeless struggle to try.

If someone is confused about their gender and they have no desire to change... trying to change them... against their will... will be harmful to everyone and a waste of time and money.

Just as it would be to try and stop an alcoholic, even when they are wrecking their life.. until they want to change.. they never will.

You've made some really good points. I think what I was trying to say was that any kind of therapeutic services should always be person centred. The treatments should not involve imposing our values and beliefs on an individual, but taking a more person centred approach, respecting their own thoughts, feelings and goals and working with them to meet realistic objectives that are both measurable and achievable.

Junia · Oct 6, 2020

The church are dealing with my friend by allowing her to see a therapist who is helping her come to terms with who she is so she feels less distressed. She does have other mental health issues , one of which is linked to identity (BPD which I also suffered with and I suspect was why I had same sex issues/confusion) and bipolar.

When those in the church have lovingly told her what the Bible says on the issue of LGBT she does get very distressed. She is born again. I See Jesus in her. I have told her I will pray for her and be a friend to her and that she must do as she feels Jesus is telling her..I did tell her my own testimony and that I know Jesus can set her free and want a her to be happy.but she says she is 3learning to accept herself as gay/trans. I have told her she will be my friend whether she is male, female, whatever and that I don't have the answers but I am here for her

Sadly I messed up earlier this year by saying that I snappier the Bible stance on it and sharing my testimony which upset her...so we don't speak as much. I did apologise to her for preaching at her rather than loving her. Because I believe all along I should have just prayed for her, loved on her.and been there for her...maybe I should say him but I still see her as the tomboy girl I always knew her as....

Quartermaine · Oct 6, 2020

Stan Ley said:
Please share, what are these blatant lies?

the ACT ban on conversion therapy has a broad definition of conversion therapy. it doesn't, in fact many complained that the definition was to narrow limiting the scope of the law.

the ACT ban was particularly concerned with "dubious religions context." this was no where mentioned in the legislation but it helps set up the the claim that religion is being attacked I suppose

"Conversion therapy isn't our term. it didn't come from any church. it didn't cum from any religion". The term conversion therapy was coined by the ex-gay ministry Exodus International in the 1970's and according to Exodus it was made to provide legitimacy to the attempts to change sexual orientation.

Therapy isn't medical treatment

"it's their rand they have defined it." The Christians who coined it and spent years pushing it defined it

"the Victorian government's discussion paper refers to any practice that seeks to change suppress or eliminate an individuals sexual orientation.....etc. That includes self help"
False

"religious practices" False From that discussion paper: "Manifestation of religious belief through religious practice is protected by the right to freedom of religion.

"Prayer" see above

"Fasting" see above

"Scripture reading" see above

"it includes pastoral care" see above

i can go on

Quartermaine · Oct 6, 2020

Sketcher said:
If your frame of reference is unhealthy, that would make sense.

my frame of reference is reality

the reality is that hate mongering isn't healthy for anyone

Junia · Oct 6, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
I don't think the answer is in understanding the complexities of mental health.

I conclude that much of this discussion takes place because the church is currently quite disempowered. So the reason why authorities want to close down the church's activity in this area is because effective ministry is rare, and in some cases harm is being done.

The LGBT community seizes on this sad fact and lobbies Govt. to close down both the good and the bad.

Believers, the ball is in our court - would that the hem of His garment again manifest among us.

I have some thoughts about how we can see this restored but that may be better on another thread.

I would love to see.that other thread

I wonder why the church doesn't have the power.we should have? Reading the book of Acts shows how the early church n was persecuted in ways we cannot even begin to imagine yet very powerful

Quartermaine · Oct 6, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
None of the above are abominations...

Sins that are abominations are in a class of their own, that is why they are so named.

lying is an abomination Proverbs 12:22
pride is an abomination Proverbs 16:5

Quartermaine · Oct 6, 2020

WrappedUpinHisLove3 said:
I
The tired old tattoo debate...tattoos were forbidden for Israel under the levitical law. That is why they not mention in the new testament as did not apply to the early church

homosexuality is mentioned because it does still apply to believers today

if one wants a literal interpretation of the bible then homosexuality is not mentioned

Junia · Oct 6, 2020

Quartermaine said:
if one wants a literal interpretation of the bible then homosexuality is not mentioned

I

I read Vicky Beechings moving testimony, Undivided and she also made the argument that the Bible does not refer to homosexuality in the context of a loving consensual relationship, so you may hAve a point there. I been wondering about this

Quartermaine · Oct 6, 2020

WrappedUpinHisLove3 said:
I

I read Vicky Beechings moving testimony, Undivided and she also made the argument that the Bible does not refer to homosexuality in the context of a loving consensual relationship, so you may hAve a point there. I been wondering about this

actually the new testament doesn't refer to homosexuality at all.

Junia · Oct 6, 2020

Quartermaine said:
actually the new testament doesn't refer to homosexuality at all.

Isn't it mentioned in 1st Corinthians ? Where it mentions the effeminate?.which I believe refers to gay temple.prostitutes.

Also the scripture about exchAnging truth for lie and the one about unnatural desires? Exchanging the nAtural use for the body with unatural?

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