What's the science behind conversion experiences? I have heard the people sometimes convert when they are undergoing personal difficulties, and that "God speaks to them" or something similar.
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Conversion experiences
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juvenissun
... and God saw that it was good.
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People converted in all kinds of circumstances and in all types of rates.
So, I think it is not a scientifically describable behavior.
So, I think it is not a scientifically describable behavior.
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I am thinking of the more mystical conversions, where people felt touched by God or called by a higher force etc. They tend to be dismissed as unreliable from the epistemological perspective (i.e. they cannot actually serve as reliable evidence of God's existence etc), but I would like to know what is actually going on. I know about neurotheology and the "God helmet", but that is only part of the picture. Anyway people are not wearing those deviced when they convert.
Why, if the experiences are illusory, do so many people seem to have them? When I say "so many people" I mean I have heard people say such experiences are not that uncommon, which is hearsay evidence only. But also is there an evolutionary function to them in that they actually promote welfare, if they actually exist? Could they be in part instinctive responses to stress? This is genuine x-files material, which posters on this forum ought to enjoy.
Why, if the experiences are illusory, do so many people seem to have them? When I say "so many people" I mean I have heard people say such experiences are not that uncommon, which is hearsay evidence only. But also is there an evolutionary function to them in that they actually promote welfare, if they actually exist? Could they be in part instinctive responses to stress? This is genuine x-files material, which posters on this forum ought to enjoy.
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First of all, concerning the so-called "God Helmet", it's been tested and found not to produce any effects at all, actually. At research team lead by Pehr Granqvist in Finland found that a control group without the magnetic fields from the helmet was just as likely to feel some sort of mystical experience as a group with the magnetic fields. Their article concerning the results is here:
Sensed presence and mystical experiences are p... [Neurosci Lett. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI
On the broader issue, the first two well-known scientific studies on mystical experiences both come from about a century ago: The Varieties of Religious Experience, by William James, and The Idea of the Holy, by Rudolph Otto. Both concluded that there is no sign of mental illness being a cause of mystical experiences. A great deal of research with more modern techniques has confirmed this, and in fact found that people with excellent mental health are the ones most likely to feel the presence of God and spiritual reality different from our own.
Sensed presence and mystical experiences are p... [Neurosci Lett. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI
On the broader issue, the first two well-known scientific studies on mystical experiences both come from about a century ago: The Varieties of Religious Experience, by William James, and The Idea of the Holy, by Rudolph Otto. Both concluded that there is no sign of mental illness being a cause of mystical experiences. A great deal of research with more modern techniques has confirmed this, and in fact found that people with excellent mental health are the ones most likely to feel the presence of God and spiritual reality different from our own.
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Thanks for that.
I have heard f those authors, I thought that was true, but that does not prove that the experiences actually validate religious beliefs either. However I have heard the William Alston argued that if we are to trust normal perception we ought to trust 'mystical perception' too. I think that in answer to that it has to be arguesd that normal perception has a domain where we can test it's reliability. For instance seeing the car keys on the table means they are there. But whet feedback is there to corroborate mystical beliefs?
But they will be less inteligent that the atheists (by half an IQ point or so) right?
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What like? Why? I think that things like appetite or pain are understood by common sense to some degree, but religious experience stands out as something we lack much information on. Given the role of faith in society and international politics it might be good to try and shed some light on it.Science should concern itself with man's 'lower' thoughts first.
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I've never heard that. Most of the evidence that I've seen points the other way. For instance, from this paper on page 6:
Religion is not the province of the poor or uninformed. In numerous analyses of cross-sectional survey data, rates of religious belief and religious activity tend not to decline with income, and most rates increase with education.
Of course generic "religious belief and religious activity" isn't exactly the same thing as having mystical experiences with God.
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I am thinking of the more mystical conversions, where people felt touched by God or called by a higher force etc. They tend to be dismissed as unreliable from the epistemological perspective (i.e. they cannot actually serve as reliable evidence of God's existence etc), but I would like to know what is actually going on. I know about neurotheology and the "God helmet", but that is only part of the picture. Anyway people are not wearing those deviced when they convert.
Why, if the experiences are illusory, do so many people seem to have them? When I say "so many people" I mean I have heard people say such experiences are not that uncommon, which is hearsay evidence only. But also is there an evolutionary function to them in that they actually promote welfare, if they actually exist? Could they be in part instinctive responses to stress? This is genuine x-files material, which posters on this forum ought to enjoy.
A better question is "why are these experiences often attributed to a supernatural cause??" Human brains are the most complex things in the universe but that does not mean they are able to break the laws of physics. Subjective experiences DO merit further study; it is a truly undervalued area of discourse in the scientific community. "Conversion" experiences is a vague term and could generalize to mean just about anything so I don't think it need be considered a completely distinct form of experience. They are like any other experience; a mental process with physical causes and stimuli. Also, since the brain is a product of evolutionary processes, they could be thought of as perhaps being shaped by evolution, though it would be a mistake to simply imply all characteristics which human minds possess are/were necessarily adaptive.
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linssue55
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Many unbelievers accept God when they are on their death bed. Better late than never. But I do not believe for a moment that the Lord speaks. Rather it is their fears that cause a change of mind. God only speaks through His Word in the church age.
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J
Jazer
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We are body, soul and spirit. Science tends to deal with the body, psychology deals with the psyche or soul, then religion deals with the spirit. Science has investaged two areas. Living a temperate life and the advantages that has. Science overwelmingly agrees with religion when it comes to temperance. Then there is research on the benifit of prayer. Often they come up with mixed results. Sometimes they can document the advantage of prayer and sometimes science is not able to show any benifit. In general religion and prayer are considered to be benificial.
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J
Jazer
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For the most part God helps us to understand. He can help us to overcome things like confusion so we can think clearly.
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