Conventional yours, dear forum

[OldShepherd]

Yesterday at 06:31 AM Justme said this in Post #35

Hi Amorthe,

I liked that, especially Jesus returning going up.

Yes, that statement was made in more than one conversation. I would consider that order is still in effect as well.

In a post a long time ago,on this board, and also on others, I asked this question.

How can every eye see the second coming of Christ, yet nobody will ever say anything about it?

No one has ever even attemped an answer on these types of boards as far as I remember.

Take care,

Justme

This a is a blatant falsehood. I have answered you more than once. Because you don't like the answer does not mean it was not given. Your assumption is that this has already happened or that it happens upon the death of each person. Where is it written that nobody will ever say anything about it?

 

[Justme]

Hi OS,

Gladly and while I do that I will also refer to the parallel passage in Luke where we see it was the disciples eyes that were affected NOT the form of Jesus.

I'll copy that paralllel passage from NIV:

15As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16but they were kept from recognizing him.

Poor Mark, he was wrong. Actually the same darn thing happened to Luke, he totally toasted a sentence in chapter 24. Well, actually which one do we throw out, OS? Mark or Luke? How about the two didn't recognize Him because He was in a different form? The paralell verse I like best is the abomination /army paralell in Matthew/ Luke. Or would this Mark /lLuke setup be considered paralell and the Matthew /Luke -not even close!!!!!

In order to properly understand the scriptures you need a Systematic Theology not a "proof text" here and there.

Read thru verses long enough and there'll be some good stuff revealed.

Its easy to make wild accusations, what precisely do you think I have dodged?

Ah,c'mon, you're funnin' me ain'tcha?

In case you are serious, how about we just use the example in your actual quote.

In your other post you asked me where it was stated that eternal is unseen. I gave you chapter and verse and you never considered it.

I ' assume' the reason you don't consider these things is because these 'proof texts' add up and wipe out your one-verse doctrine.

Since you are relying on ONE (1) verse from Paul to somehow prove that the resurrection body is totally spirit, and OBTW ignoring the verses I posted which speak of a "glorified body"

Oh, here we go! You want to call it a glorified body. Fine with me. It's just like the guy that was laying in the street today after he got hit with the cement truck. He wanted me to call him an ambulance. Hey, what can you do , SSSo I said,"Hey, you're an ambulance."

Glorified body it is!! Now which will that body biblically be sir? body #1-the natural, or body #2 the spiritual????????? If it is OTHER' please show me the 'proof texts.'

Tell me which ones mean something that is invisible spirit.

(The above pertaining to verses Paul wrote containing the word spiritual)

Anything that is eternal, but we're going with glorified body not spiritual.

And OBTW what does the word "resurrection" anastasiV mean? When Martha told Jesus she knew that Lazarus would live again in the resurrection, did she mean a spirit?

Who cares, it is Jesus teaching, Martha learning. What did Jesus tell her next? He told Martha even if she died she would live-rise from the dead...really quick apparently because Jesus told her she would never die at all. Come to think of it . You haven't seen Martha around at all have you? Perhaps she is unseen , as a spirit, as an angel in Heaven, you know unseen eternal things, like Jesus even. Because she does 'live' somewhere, Jesus said so.

So this 'glorified body' which is that OS, the natural or the spiritual as described by Paul. Is it the earthly or the heavenly?

Justme

 

[OldShepherd]

Yesterday at 12:59 PM Justme said this in Post #42

Hi OS,

I'll copy that paralllel passage from NIV:

15As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16but they were kept from recognizing him.

Poor Mark, he was wrong. Actually the same darn thing happened to Luke, he totally toasted a sentence in chapter 24. Well, actually which one do we throw out, OS? Mark or Luke? How about the two didn't recognize Him because He was in a different form? The paralell verse I like best is the abomination /army paralell in Matthew/ Luke. Or would this Mark /lLuke setup be considered paralell and the Matthew /Luke -not even close!!!!!

Unless you mention a chapter and verse I have no idea what you are talking about. Or is this all a smokescreen because you don't have a clue? You can quote all the versions you want to but I always check the original language. We don't have to throw out anything. The reason Jesus "appeared" to them differently was becasue their eyes were affected.

• 
  Luk 24:16 oi de ofqalmoi autwn ekratounto tou mh epignwnai auton
  
  oi de ophthalmoi autoon ekratounto tou me epignoonai auton

Note the third word, "ophthalmoi", it is the Greek word for eyes, from which we get the English word "Ophthalmology." So your NIV quote is NOT correct.

In your other post you asked me where it was stated that eternal is unseen. I gave you chapter and verse and you never considered it.

I ' assume' the reason you don't consider these things is because these 'proof texts' add up and wipe out your one-verse doctrine.

This is really pathetic. The post your are referring to I quoted 23 verses of scripture.

Oh, here we go! You want to call it a glorified body. Fine with me. It's just like the guy that was laying in the street today after he got hit with the cement truck. He wanted me to call him an ambulance. Hey, what can you do , SSSo I said,"Hey, you're an ambulance."

Maybe you ought to come back when you have a little maturity and can say something that makes sense.

Glorified body it is!! Now which will that body biblically be sir? body #1-the natural, or body #2 the spiritual????????? If it is OTHER' please show me the 'proof texts.'

(The above pertaining to verses Paul wrote containing the word spiritual)

Anything that is eternal, but we're going with glorified body not spiritual.

Just like every other false unorthodox religious group. The words means one thing in the verses which seem to support your misinterpretation and something else in every other verse.

Who cares, it is Jesus teaching, Martha learning. What did Jesus tell her next? He told Martha even if she died she would live-rise from the dead...really quick apparently because Jesus told her she would never die at all. Come to think of it . You haven't seen Martha around at all have you? Perhaps she is unseen , as a spirit, as an angel in Heaven, you know unseen eternal things, like Jesus even. Because she does 'live' somewhere, Jesus said so.

So this 'glorified body' which is that OS, the natural or the spiritual as described by Paul. Is it the earthly or the heavenly?

Well it is probably the same type of body that Lazarus and the rich man had. The rich man had a tongue and he had eyes. He could experience suffering and thirst. Lazarus was in a recognizable form and had fingers. And Abraham, Lazarus, and the rich man were NOT invisible spirits.

"Who cares, it is Jesus teaching and Martha learning." Maybe you ought to try a little of that learning.

• 
  John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise (Anistemi) again.
  24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise (Anistemi) again in the resurrection (anastasiV) at the last day.
  25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection (anastasiV), and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
  26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
  
  386 anastasiV anastasis
  1.a raising up, rising (e.g. from a seat)
  2. a rising from the dead
    a. that of Christ
    b. that of all men at the end of this present age
    c. the resurrection of certain ones history who were restored to life (Heb. 11:
  
  450 Anistemi an-is'-tay-mee
  1. to cause to rise up, raise up
    a. raise up from laying down
    b. to raise up from the dead
    c. to raise up, cause to be born, to cause to appear, bring forward
  2. to rise, stand up
    a. of persons lying down, of persons lying on the ground
    b. of persons seated
    c. of those who leave a place to go elsewhere
     1. of those who prepare themselves for a journey
     d. of the dead
  3. at arise, appear, stand forth
    a. of kings prophets, priests, leaders of insurgents
    b. of those about to enter into conversation or dispute with anyone, or to undertake some business, or attempt something against others
    c. to rise up against any one

Who cares? Those who are interested in the truth. Note the words used for "rise" and "resurrection" do NOT mean changing into something else.

But why oh why are the things eternal "not seen"? Because they are in another place, NOT because they are invisible. See the very next verse, "eternal in the heavens."! Also note, how can they "look at" something invisible?

• 
  2 Cor 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
  
  Luk 25:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Paul did not use the word for invisible aoratoV/aoratos, which occurs five times in the scriptures,Rom 1:20, Col 1:15, 16, 1 Tim 1:17, and Heb 11:27.

• 
  517 aoratoV aoratos ah-or’-at-os
  from 1 (as a negative particle) and 3707; TDNT - 5:368,706; adj
  AV - invisible 4, invisible things 1; 5
  1) unseen, or that which can not be seen, e.g. invisible

Why is Jesus NOT seen today? Because He is somewhere else?

• 
  John 3:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
  3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
  4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
  
  John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
  22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

 

[Justme]

Hi OS,

Unless you mention a chapter and verse I have no idea what you are talking about.

Never mind, OS, if you didn't see thru this and you didn't get the ambulance thing, it is obvious to me what my task is ahead. Don't worry, tho, I'm a very patient man.

Can you interpret this verse from NASB for me, using your knowledge of Greek. (We won't use NIV because it is incorrect.)

NASB Mark 16

12 After that, He appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking along on their way to the country.

If you don't like NASB either use KJV if you want.

Mark 16 KJV

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

So where are the 'eyes' here?

Back to the big question......

Whatever this 'body' is it the first one -the natural? or the one that comes after- the spiritual? Is it the earthly one or the Heavenly one? This really shouldn't be that difficult!!!

Justme

 

[Justme]

Hi OS,

Where is it written that nobody will ever say anything about it?

Matthew 24

23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.

Here's for context:

24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.
26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

Right up to where the vulture eats the carcass.

So OS if you can not believe any one who says there is Jesus and yet Jesus is as clear to you as lightning...what gives. Read further in Luke 17.

20Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within[2] you."

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 05:23 AM Justme said this in Post #45

Hi OS,

Matthew 24

23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.

Here's for context:

24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.
26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

Right up to where the vulture eats the carcass.

So OS if you can not believe any one who says there is Jesus and yet Jesus is as clear to you as lightning...what gives. Read further in Luke 17.

20Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within[2] you."

Very simple Jesus' return will NOT be in secret. No one will have to tell anyone about it, because it will be widely seen like lightning from the east to the west. Thus if someone tells you Jesus is out in the wilderness or in a secret chamber, you know that person is lying.

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 05:12 AM Justme said this in Post #44

Hi OS,

Never mind, OS, if you didn't see thru this and you didn't get the ambulance thing, it is obvious to me what my task is ahead. Don't worry, tho, I'm a very patient man.

Can you interpret this verse from NASB for me, using your knowledge of Greek. (We won't use NIV because it is incorrect.)

NASB Mark 16

12 After that, He appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking along on their way to the country.

If you don't like NASB either use KJV if you want.

Mark 16 KJV

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

So where are the 'eyes' here?

Back to the big question......

Whatever this 'body' is it the first one -the natural? or the one that comes after- the spiritual? Is it the earthly one or the Heavenly one? This really shouldn't be that difficult!!!Justme

As I said, which you seem to be incapable of grasping, Mark wrote Jesus "appeared" in another form, harmonizing that with Luke, the reason Jesus "appeared" to be in another form was because the disciple's eyes were affected in some way. Just because Mark did not mention the eyes being affected does not mean it did not happen as Luke said.

I have answered the big question several times, with scriptural references. Everybody will be "resurrected." I included the definition of the Greek words. There is NOT one single scripture which states or implies that people will be changed into formless, invisible, spirits.

 

[Justme]

Hi OS,

Just because Mark did not mention the eyes being affected does not mean it did not happen as Luke said.

Just because Luke didn't mention the 'form' it does not mean it does not happen as Mark says.

I have answered the big question several times, with scriptural references. Everybody will be "resurrected." I included the definition of the Greek words. There is NOT one single scripture which states or implies that people will be changed into formless, invisible, spirits.

No it is not a single verse, it is half a chapter.

Is this glorified body you talked about the EARTHLY body or the HEAVENLY one?
1 Cor 15

40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.

Justme

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 12:08 AM Justme said this in Post #48

Hi OS,

Just because Luke didn't mention the 'form' it does not mean it does not happen as Mark says.

Correct, Jesus "appeared" to be in another form because the eyes of the disciples were somehow affected. Mark does NOT say Jesus was in another form but "appeared"

No it is not a single verse, it is half a chapter.

Is this glorified body you talked about the EARTHLY body or the HEAVENLY one?
1 Cor 15

40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.

Well lets see if your question is logical or reasonable. What exactly are the heavenly bodies Paul is talking about? Is he talking about the human body or something else?

• 
  1 Cor 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
  41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
  42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
  43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
  44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Verse 41 explains vs.40. The heavenly bodies Paul is talking about are the sun, moon, and stars. In vs. 42, which begins "So also. . .", he first starts talking about the resurrection body by comparsion to the heavenly bodies. If the heavenly bodies in vs. 40, means the resurrection human body, there is no need for a comparing term, "so also".

• 
  4983 swma so'-mah
   1. the body both of men or animals
     a. a dead body or corpse
     b. the living body
       1. of animals
   2. the bodies of planets and of stars (heavenly bodies)
   3.is used of a (large or small) number of men closely united into one society, or family as it were; a social, ethical, mystical body
     a. so in the NT of the church
   4. that which casts a shadow as distinguished from the shadow itself

And Paul in vs. 44 says "it [the body] is raised a spiritual body." NOT raised as an invisible spirit but "a spiritual BODY" or as Paul writes elsewhere, a "glorified" BODY.

• 
  Ro 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
  
  Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[Justme]

Hi OS,

I have no idea if how you rate at translating Greek or Hebrew, but your understanding of ENGLISH needs some work.

1 Cor 15

1 Cor 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

There are bodies in the sky such as the moon , stars and the sun. There are bodies on the earth such as the mongoose the warthog and the human. But the GLORY of the celestial is one and the GLORY of the terrestial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

Apparently these GLORIES all differ.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

SO ALSO..........apparently there is also a difference in the resurrection of the dead.-apparently the GLORIES are different-between the natural and the risen, resurrected if you prefer.

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

Here we are talking about the differences between the natural body and the spiritual one.

the natural is sown in dishonor and the spiritual one is raised in glory. The natural one is sown in weakness and the spiritual one is raised in power. Resurrected if you prefer.

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Like what part of this is hard to understand? There are two bodies for you and me!!!!One is the natural: one is the spiritual. The one that is sown, physically birthed, naturally lived in flesh and blood, in non-immortal form, in corruptible flesh and blood is the first body!!! The spiritual body comes after, like in the one that is RAISED, resurrected if you prefer.

OS, within 1 COR 15 do you see the words SPIRITUAL BODY. If the bible is correct there exists somewhere a SPIRITUAL BODY. That SPIRITUAL BODY is RAISED, resurrected if you prefer. If there was only ONE body it would not have been necessay for Paul to proclaim " if there is a natural body, there is a SPIRITUAL BODY." There is apparently differences in these bodies. Now if one was seen and one was not seen, that would do it!

I am going to file your argument about the moon and stars and on and on because I am quite sure it is the most feeble argument I have ever come across. I can't believe it!!!!!!!!

So OS, there are two bodies, the natural and the spiritual. For starters let's look at the physical or natural body first. It has flesh, it has blood, it is mortal, it is corruptible, it has weakness and it has dishonor, it physically DIES.

The spiritual body....

1) does it have blood?

2) Does it have flesh?

3) Is the spiritual body corrupt?

4) Is it immortal?

5) Does it die or is it eternal? (What do we know about ETERNAL?) It is UNSEEN.

Why do you want this after -natural body to NOT BE spiritual, what does that win you? Actually OS, this is the question I would really like to see an answer to......

Justme