• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Conventional yours, dear forum

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Justme, Apr 8, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    Oh I'm sorry you are NOT reading again. I believe that I qualified my question by specifiying, "Your own private religion, is not supported by any church history whatsoever. You blew off the church fathers when I referred to them."

    But yes I will concede you can find the writings of some 19th and 20th century, so-called, Theologians, such as Harkness, who teach things not accepted by mainline evangelical Christianity. Note, how your own quote doesn't say it is widespread but "some theologians." But once again I stress my point, the early church did NOT teach or believe the views you present. This is particularly important when we read the writings of people like Ignatius and Polycarp, disciples of John, and Irenaeus a disciple of Ignatius.
    How about Paul, in Thessalonians. I'm not sure but I think the phrase "caught up" is "rapture" in Latin.

    • 1 Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    And OBTW I don't see anything about changing in that verse.
    Harkness and a few? Well as I said the early church did NOT teach it.
    How does this prove anything about Jesus being a spirit? There were times before His crucifixion, when He was not visible to those around Him, e.g. John 8:59. And immediately after His resurrection He told His disciples "A spirit does not HAVE flesh and bone as you see me HAVE." Nothing in Act 10:40 or the passages referenced say anything about Jesus being only a spirit.
    • Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

      Robertson Word Pictures in the New Testament, Act 10:40
      Gave him to be made manifest (edwken auton empanh genesqai). Peculiar phrase, here only in the N.T. and in Romans 10:20 (quoted from Isaiah 65:1). Empanh, predicate accusative after infinitive genesqai agreeing with auton object of edwken.
      • 1096 givnomai ghin-om-ahee
        1. to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
        2. to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
        a. of events
        3. to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
        a. of men appearing in public

        4. to be made, finished
        a. of miracles, to be performed, wrought
        5. to become, be made

        Robertson, Romans 10:20
        Is very bold
        (apotolmai). Present active indicative of apotolmaw, old word, to assume boldness (apo, off) and only here in N.T. Isaiah "breaks out boldly" (Gifford). Paul cites Isaiah 65:1 in support of his own courage against the prejudice of the Jews. See Romans 9:30-33 for illustration of this point.
        I was found (eurethn). First aorist passive indicative of euriskw.

        Isaiah 65:1 "I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask {for Me;} I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me. I said, 'Here am I, here am I,' To a nation which did not call on My name.
      No I wasn't there but that verse says nothing about other times and circumstances.
      Instead of being argumentative why don't you read the Bible and read my posts. I have already answered that more than once.
      • 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
      Another "proof text" yanked out of its context.
      • John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
        26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
      Did John die? Did Paul die? Did ALL of the disciples die? Then this verse is speaking about something other than physical life. Before Jesus said "whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.", He said "I am the resurrection." In order for there to be a resurrection, there must first be a death.
      I don't think I mentioned angels anywhere. "Where is Jesus now?" There are eighteen verses in the N.T. which state that Jesus is seated at the right hand of the father, Mat 22:44, 26:64, Mk 12:36, 14:62, 16:19, Lk 20:42, 22:69, Act 2:34, 7:55, Rom 8:34, Eph 1:20, Heb 1:3, 1:13, 8:1, 10:12, 12:2, Col 3:1, 1 Pet 3:22.

      I can't see any of my family either althjough they are very much alive, I happen to live and work in another country

      Stephen, at his stoning, was privileged to behold Jesus with the father. I haven't yet been given that privilege. But John said, We will see Jesus. In Matt 25:31ff, Jesus said He would be seated on His throne and all nations would be gathered before Him. He will speak to them and they to Him. Do you have any more "proof texts" to throw at me?
     
  2. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi OS,

    Well, let's see...I've been quoting Matthew,Mark, Luke, John and Paul... they were fair early as far as Christianity goes. Maybe the ones you are referring to didn't, but then they never wrote the bible did they?

    Yes, I can see that, so why read them, what's the bible for?

    Apparently in English it must have meant 'caught up.'

    You know OldShepherd, against my better judgement I'm going to deal with this 1 Thess stuff one more time.

    Now here is a verse:

    15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

    Do you see that part about.....we who are alive ...da da da til the coming of the Lord..

    All I want to see you explain is the difference in meaning between the two WE's...by that I mean the words we.

    What it really says is that WE ,Paul or some of those he writes to, will be alive at the coming., but you can't have that, so I want you to tell me what you say it means.

    Don't answer with a question for once, let's see what you come up with in a positive mode.

    By church fathers here I guess you mean Iggy and friends. Okay, so did Iggy and friends teach the rapture then??

    I read a lot of early stuff on the net today and noticed they fought back and forth then the same as now. I'll stick to scripture, thank you. I don't think the early boys did much better than most TV dudes do today.

    Maybe the problem here is with the ENGLISH word 'spirit.' --immortal part of man, soul, spectre, ghost,...........not seen by the living..

    I take the spiritual body as being not seen, invisible. Ghostlike,invisible.The eternal thing is unseen. If Jesus was not invisible after the resurrection why did God have to grant him visibility. Can Jesus have flesh and bones? Can if He wants, I guess, but they had to be invisible to some. How did He become physical when Thomas talked to Him? Ask Jesus when you see Him, it is not answered here on earth as far as I know.

    The spiritual life is the eternal life, the eternity, the heavenly promise that this NT is all about as I see it.

    What do you mean by this 'only a spirit?' This is maybe the mess.

    I asked you the following:
    If not where in the bible does it tell us that Jesus now is made visible to other LIVING people
    ***********
    You quoted this verse.
    1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    Well, what we learn from that is that at the time John wrote that he didn't know what he would look like when Jesus appeared. However, John tells us we shall BE LIKE HIM and we SHALL SEE HIM.

    Where in there does it say Jesus is visible to the LIVING.?

    Remember:
    27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

    I copied that out in full because I was totally amazed. I didn't notice this when I first skimmed the post.

    Yes, OS, you've got it.

    Of course, it has to be speaking of something other than physical life here. Absolutely. ANd of course, before there can be a resurrection there has to be a death. ABSOLUTELY.
    So being that Martha was physically alive when Jesus was talking to her and because Jesus told her she was never going to die and because it is, of course, something other than physical life being talked about here and because the only other choice for life is the spiritual life, the heavenly ....hey man, you got it.

    Way to go.

    I'll leave the rest of this post, you will understand.

    Take care,
    Justme
     
  3. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi rnmomof7,

    I'm sorry, the WBTS is the WatchTower Bible and Tract Society, the governing body of the Jehovah Wirtnesses. Head office in Brooklyn and now some new headquarter stuff in Patterson.

    Mormonism- I don't have any idea about that group. From what you wrote I would not agree with their doctrine.

    Thank you so much for the 'young' remark.

    Can you explain what you mean by a bodily resurrection? I think there may be some confusion in terms here.

    Thank you,

    Justme
     
  4. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    You never wrote the bible either and nobody in history ever (mis) interpereted it the way you do. So when I come across people like you who have their own interpretation of the Bible I look to see how the early church interpreted those same passages. I'm sure that John taught his followers correctly, you are leaning on your own understanding.
    You asked a question I answered it.
    Alzheimers"? I answered this before. How is it relevant here? Paul is saying that those who are alive when Jesus returns will be caught up to be with Him. And obviously He is talking about some future group because He, as part of the we, was martyred. Although he said WE, including himself, he died, he was not caught up.
    A copout.
    You are right, "I take it" and "I guess" I think I posted the definition of the word you are twisting here, ginomai. It does NOT mean to make something invisible, visible.

    Your are misinterpreting the text. How did Jesus become physical? Your are reading your own assumptions into the text. He was flesh and bone, He said He was. The text says nothing about it being only temporary. Doesn't Hebrews say that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever?

    You don't like the verse I quoted then try this one.

    • 1 Cor 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
      6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
      7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
    Jesus was seen by those who were there. Nothing supernatural about it. He was flesh and bone, a living human being, anyone present would have seen Him. He did not go on a speaking tour through the whole country but remained with His disciples. This passage in the"The Message" Bible.
    • 40 But in three days God had him up, alive, and out where he could be seen.
      41 Not everyone saw him - he wasn't put on public display. Witnesses had been carefully handpicked by God beforehand - us! We were the ones, there to eat and drink with him after he came back from the dead
      .
      1096 ginomai givnomai ghin-om-ahee
      1. to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
      2. to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
      a. of events
      3. to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
      a. of men appearing in public

      4. to be made, finished
      a. of miracles, to be performed, wrought
      5. to become, be made
     
  5. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Forgetting anything OS?
     
  6. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi OS,

    Examples of how I interpret biblical verses.

    For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.

    I interpret this as

    For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.

    I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

    I interpret the above as:

    I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

    if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

    I interpret the above as

    the gospel that you heard that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven........

    Dear Forum, isn't it a disgrace how I distort the word of God?

    So God did this whatever ....not toall the people ...just to ...it ain't looking good here OS, what are you talking about????

    It is good up to the 'anyone present would have seen Him.......'

    Not according to this:

    40 "God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,
    41 not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.

    What is the need to write....Jesus won't be seen by people in a town He doesn't go to!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Carry on,

    Justme
     
  7. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    I happened to be working at a military base once. The President came to visit. I did not see him, although he was alive, flesh and blood and all that. He spoke in the base auditorium, after all the big brass got their seats, of course, they had a lottery for the remaining seats. My boss got a ticket. Nothing supernatural about it. And as I said nothing supernatural about the word used in this passage.

    I repeat, Jesus was seen by those who were there. Nothing supernatural about it. He was flesh and bone, a living human being, anyone present would have seen Him. He did not go on a speaking tour through the whole country but remained with His disciples. This passage in the"The Message" Bible.

    • 40 But in three days God had him up, alive, and out where he could be seen.
      41 Not everyone saw him - he wasn't put on public display. Witnesses had been carefully handpicked by God beforehand - us! We were the ones, there to eat and drink with him after he came back from the dead
     
  8. CCWoody

    CCWoody Voted best Semper Reformada signature ~ 2007

    +248
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Republican
    "... nobody in a hurry to meet Jesus, because when you meet Jesus you're dead."

    Errr!  [Scratches Head!]

    Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
    Woody.
     
  9. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi OS,

    Okay let's take this to another verse and see if it fits there.

    You mentioned a number of quotes that put Jesus at the right hand of God. God is in Heaven. Heaven is eternal.

    2 Cor 4
    18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

    Is Jesus not eternal, is Heaven not eternal, is the afterlife not eternal...if the answer is Yes they are unseen. Again how did Jesus manifest to the totally physical to be able to say He wasn't a spirit, don't know. For God it is probably easy.

    This is 'unseen' to the living. At least as you've stated many times nobody ever saw Him.

    Back to invisible again...for the living... as clear as lightning in the west for the dead, I hear.

    There is also the verse about us being like angels in Heaven.... could you reconcile those for us. You have been thru the 'like is not identical' theory,what else?

    Very simple question. If Jesus does not return physically, as man, to planet earth would your religious doctrine be incorrect?

    If Jesus does not come here, would your idea of life after death be destroyed?

    Justme
     
  10. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi CC,

    This statement I made has you scratching your head.

    Would you like to see the biblical reason I said it?
    Or would you care to show me the biblical reasons the statement made you scratch your head?

    Justme
     
  11. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi OS,

    You seem to really be in to this verse:

    Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    I've been snooping around the scriptures and have found some more stuff for you.

    One thing we learn from verse 39 is that a 'spirit' does NOT have flesh and bones.

    John 20
    19 So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, " Peace be with you."
    26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, " Peace be with you."

    So here we learn that flesh and bones can walk through walls. Well, maybe not.

    KJ John 21
    After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he [himself].

    NAS John 21
    1 After these things Jesus manifested Himself again to the disciples at the Sea of Tiberias, and He manifested Himself in this way.

    I recall your Greek translation of the word in question in Luke 24:39, but here is where we find Strong using the word 'visible' again.

    1) to make manifest or visible or known what has been hidden or unknown, to manifest, whether by words, or deeds, or in any other way

    a) make actual and visible, realised

    b) to make known by teaching

    c) to become manifest, be made known

    d) of a person

    1) expose to view, make manifest, to show one's self, appear

    e) to become known, to be plainly recognised, thoroughly understood

    1) who and what one is

    All very strange,eh what!!!

    I think this is all fun and games, but here is the meat of the deal.

    1 Cor 15

    40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; ........

    42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. .................. 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

    If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

    46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

    So there are two choices, there is the natural body and there is the spiritual one. The spirit can not have flesh and bone. Flesh and blood cannot inherit Heaven.

    50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

    What really is the Kingdom of God?
    The same as the Kingdom of Heaven as the interchangeable phrases below point out.

    Matthew 11
    11I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN is greater than he.

    "I say to you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

    "I say to you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

    I can see a spiritual body existing here, but a spiritual body doesn't appear to be able to get to Heaven. Besides there are all those body to dust and spirit to God verses to reconcile.

    Any thoughts?

    Justme
     
  12. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    You forgot to include the word that goes with the translation. It is fanerow/phaneroo and you neglected to see if that word is used elsewhere in the N.T., which would support or refute your contention. Here are two instances which do NOT support an interpretation of making something invisible, visible, as you are desperately trying to do. God's creation is not invisible! And the disciples were not invisible!

    • Ro 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed “phaneroo” it unto them.

      John 7:4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew “phaneroo” thyself to the world.
    And how do you interpret the Bible that Paul writing years later can contradict Jesus Himself? You made a point of the verse I quoted. Let's consider this verse with another verse, when Jesus was last seen by His disciples. I cannot find a verse anywhere which states that Jesus changed from flesh and bone to an invisible spirit. Rather the same flesh and bone Jesus will come again.

    • Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

      Acts 1:11
      Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
    Jesus Himself said that He was NOT a spirit but had flesh and bone and the angel said this same Jesus will return in a like manner.

    Now would you like to explain to me how Paul can contradict Jesus Himself. You keep trying to twist the scriptures to make them fit your presuppositions

    • Ro 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified "doxazoo" together.

      Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified "doxazoo" .

      [size=]docazw[/size]
      1. to think, suppose, be of opinion
      2. to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate
      3. to honour, do honour to, hold in honour
      4. to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendour
      a. to impart glory to something, render it excellent
      b. to make renowned, render illustrious
      1. to cause the dignity and worth of some person or thing to become manifest and acknowledged
    It doesn't mean change into an invisible spirit!
     
  13. armothe

    armothe Living in HIS kingdom...

    977
    +18
    Christian
    US-Constitution
     

    The only conclusions we can draw from Acts 1:11 regarding the Second Coming are:

    Christ was with His disciples prior to ascension.
    Christ could be physically seen prior to ascension.
    He went up (directionally).
    A cloud hid Him from their sight as he went up.

    To return in a like matter could entail the following:

    Christ would return to His disciples.
    Christ would be physically seen.
    Christ would return to earth going "up".
    A cloud would hide Him from sight.

    Let's turn to some other passages that describe the Second Coming of Christ:

    Luke 16:19 - So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.
    Luke 13:26 - Then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in clouds’ with great power and glory.
    Mark 8:38 - Those who are ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of them the Son of Man will also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
    Matthew 24:30 - Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see ‘the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven’ with power and great glory.
    Luke 24:50-51 -  Then he led them out as far as Bethany, and, lifting up his hands, he blessed them. While he was blessing them, he withdrew from them and was carried up into heaven.
    Matthew 24:23-27 - Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Messiah! or ‘There he isdo not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Take note, I have told you beforehand. So, if they say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

    Obviously, a lot more to deduce on how Christ could return:

    Christ would come in glory.
    Christ would come out of Heaven.
    There will be a sign in Heaven.
    Christ would come with angels.
    Christ would come blessing His disciples
    If someone visibly sees what could be the Messiah, do not believe him.
    Christ would not appear visibly to those in the wilderness.
    Christ would not appear visibly to those inside.
    Christ would come like lightning.

    -A
     
  14. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi OS,

    We continue in our quest to figure out Luke 24:39.

    Back in post 10 I wrote that I felt Jesus had appeared to Thomas in that form. How else could Jesus have made the statement that He made in verse 39?

    Here is how I understand the bottom line of your 'proof' on this statement.

    Well, I can't either, but following are verses that lead me to conclude that He did.

    Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    This is an important verse because it tells us what Jesus will be when He returns. What kind of a body will He have. The reason that is important is because we apparently will be like that after our resurrection as it says here:

    1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    We shall be like Him...

    Because WE will be like Him it leaves only two options.

    Physical body or spiritual body......

    1 Cor 15

    If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

    46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

    I'm going to take a wild guess that I am in my NATural body now, if the spiritual body is coming after that and I am going to be like Jesus the only answer is I will be spiritual. That is reason one why I assume Jesus became spiritual after talking to Thomas.

    Secondly, Jesus is going to Heaven. That is the Kigdom that goes on for ever and ever, Jesus rules for ever and ever, that would be eternal.

    Things that are eternal are unseen. Spirits/ghosts/ are unseen.

    I'll let you deal with that first and add more later.

    Where did Paul contradict Jesus?

    Technically, no he didn't. The angel/men said Jesus would return as He left, where did they say He would return as flesh and bone?

    Can you point out where Jesus says He will change that dust to flesh and bone for me OS?

    Justme
     
  15. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi Amorthe,

    I liked that, especially Jesus returning going up.

    Yes, that statement was made in more than one conversation. I would consider that order is still in effect as well.

    In a post a long time ago,on this board, and also on others, I asked this question.

    How can every eye see the second coming of Christ, yet nobody will ever say anything about it?

    No one has ever even attemped an answer on these types of boards as far as I remember.

    Take care,

    Justme
     
  16. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    Where does the Bible say Jesus ONLY appeared to Thomas, and the other ten, as flesh and bone. Was Jesus deliberately trying to deceive the disciples? He was really an invisible spirit and made Himself to appear to be flesh and bone to fool the disciples? Or did Jesus speak the exact truth, "flesh and bone as you see me HAVE"?
    The ONLY clear statment as to what kind of body Jesus had is Luke 24:39.
    Or we could actually read the scriptures.

    • Ro 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified "doxazoo" together.

      Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified "doxazoo."
    Being "spiritual" does NOT necessarily mean being a Spirit!
    Ah yes just as I have been saying, you only "assume" Jesus became a spirit. Because the Bible doesn't say anywhere that Jesus became an invisible spirit.
    If Jesus became an invisible spirit after He spoke to Thomas how was He visible forty days later when He ascended? Where is it written that things that are eternal are invisible and Spirits and ghosts are unseen?

    When Paul was miraclulously released from prison the young lady that answered his knock thought he was a spirit.

    He doesn't but your interpretation of what Paul said results in a contradiction.
    Acts 1:11.

    • Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
    Jesus Himself said that He was NOT a spirit but had flesh and bone and the angel said this SAME Jesus will return in like manner. Which is a reference to;

    • Zec 14:4
    • And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south
    Not Jesus but Job. Can you show me where it say Jesus won't chnage the dust to flesh and bone.
     
  17. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    One additional thing which you omitted, "this same Jesus" as in NO changes. The most obvious meaning of that phrase is the same flesh and bone Jesus they saw ascending.

    • Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
    If Jesus' return is a fulfillment of Zech 14:4, then He would be descending.
     
  18. Justme

    Justme Senior Veteran

    +44
    Christian
    Hi OS,

    .
    I mentioned that Jesus would have told the truth here in this verse.

    You mention that Jesus appeared to people other than Thomas. In what form did He appear.
    I don't know but:

    Mark 12

    9When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.
    12Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. 13These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either.

    The verse I would like you to read here is 12, however, to save you typing out your 'context' argument , I printed all the above.

    OBTW I'm aware that 9-20 aren't in some old manuscriplts.

    Was that the same when He built the earth? Never mind it doesn't matter.

    2 Cor 4
    18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

    Oh, defineately not, I 'assume' it because of all those reasons I listed.

    I bet you are a very fit man, or at least you should be, you get a lot of exercise dodging the issue.

    There is a natural body, there is a spiritual body

    What the spiritual body looks like, I don't know. John didn't know either. I'm not going to look up the verse because you don't appear to be reading them anyway, but John talked about it somewhere.

    Spiritual doesn't necessary mean spirit....fine what do you want it to mean? It is still the entity that comes after the natural...call it anything you want. It's the whatever we will be when we are involved in the second coming of Christ event, when we are like Jesus. At that time we will also be like the angels in Heaven.

    Please show me the third composition (whatever you want to call it) other than what the bible calls natural and after that spiritual.
    It would be the verses that would lead you to 'assume' that you will be 'recomposed' from that dust your body is going to after your SPIRIT returns to God who gave it.

    OS there is the natural and the spiritual...live with it or prove otherwise.

    Sorry, where does my interpretation have Paul contradicting Jesus?

    The above is in answer to "where does the bible tell us we are 'recomposed' from the dust.....

    I want to see what verses you use to 'assume' your dust will somehow be fiddled with OS, there must be some biblical hint somewhere. I showed you reasons I 'assumed' Jesus changed FORM. How come you can't deal with this?

    Justme
     
  19. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    Gladly and while I do that I will also refer to the parallel passage in Luke where we see it was the disciples eyes that were affected NOT the form of Jesus. In order to properly understand the scriptures you need a Systematic Theology not a "proof text" here and there.

    • Luke 24:15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
      16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
    Its easy to make wild accusations, what precisely do you think I have dodged?
    Since you are relying on ONE (1) verse from Paul to somehow prove that the resurrection body is totally spirit, and OBTW ignoring the verses I posted which speak of a "glorified body", here is every verse where Paul uses "spiritual." Tell me which ones mean something that is invisible spirit. Is it the "law", the gifts that believers receive, the believers at Galatia, or the blessings of all believers?

    • Ro 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

      Ro 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

      Ro 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

      1 Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

      1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

      1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

      1Co 9:11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

      1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

      1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

      1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

      1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

      1Co 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

      1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

      1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

      1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

      Ga 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

      Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

      Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

      Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

      Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding

      Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
    And OBTW what does the word "resurrection" anastasiV mean? When Martha told Jesus she knew that Lazarus would live again in the resurrection, did she mean a spirit?
     
  20. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +165
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Others
    These three statements are blatantly false and definitely NOT supported by the scriptures cited, or any other scripture!

    • "If someone visibly sees what could be the Messiah, do not believe him.
      Christ would not appear visibly to those in the wilderness.
      Christ would not appear visibly to those inside.
      "
    This is clearly reading into the text your own presuppositions. Particularly in view of these passages.

    • Re 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

      Matt 24:24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

      24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory

      24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    What exactly do the words "appear" and "see" mean? Do they mean literally see and appear in some cases but not in others, in the same passage? Let's get real here.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...