Conventional yours, dear forum

[Justme]

Hi Forum,

Orthodox-having the correct faith,sound in opinions or doctrine, conventional.

I don't accept the theory of rapture or that man will someday be physically resurrected, because I say the second coming of Christ occurs (and remains) in the spiritual realm. I am not considered a christian. I do not have orthodox belief on this forum.

In the first post I put on here I stated that 'most' christians said the same thing. about meeting Jesus at death.

I found a lengthy article that backs me up. This article goes on and on about Old Testament and NT verses that would indicate a bodily resurrection. It even stated that tradition followed that veiw through certain periods of history. It shows how certain arguments lean that way. Then the final sentence says this.
Quote.
But in spite of the foregoing congruities, theologians more generally incline to the opinion that in the state of pure nature there would have been no resurrection of the body. Unquote.


The same goes for the characteristics of the risen body. I will quote from the start of the article.

Quote:
B. CHARACTERISTICS OF THE RISEN BODY

All shall rise from the dead in their own, in their entire, and in immortal bodies; but the good shall rise to the resurrection of life, the wicked to the resurrection of Judgment. It would destroy the very idea of resurrection, if the dead were to rise in bodies not their own. Again, the resurrection, like the creation, is to be numbered amongst the principal works of God; hence, as at the creation all things are perfect from the hand of God, so at the resurrection all things must be perfectly restored by the same omnipotent hand.Unquote:

The above looks in favor of a totally physical resurrection. However, the next sentence starts to change things.
Quote:
But there is a difference between the earthly and the risen body; for the risen bodies of both saints and sinners shall be invested with immortality.
Unquote:

The article goes on through various points and arrives at this final paragraph.

l Quote:
* The fourth quality is "subtility", by which the body becomes subject to the absolute dominion of the soul. This is inferred from the words of the Apostle: "It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body" (I Cor., xv, 44). The body participates in the soul's more perfect and spiritual life to such an extent that it becomes itself like a spirit. We see this quality exemplified in the fact that Christ passed through material objects. Unquote:

So there is a few out there that see things as I do, in fact a quite a few because these quotes are taken from the Catholic Encyclopedia. Look it up under 'General Resurrection.'

Conventially yours,
Justme

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 01:48 AM Justme said this in Post #1

Hi Forum,

Orthodox-having the correct faith,sound in opinions or doctrine, conventional.

I don't accept the theory of rapture or that man will someday be physically resurrected, because I say the second coming of Christ occurs (and remains) in the spiritual realm. I am not considered a christian. I do not have orthodox belief on this forum.

B. CHARACTERISTICS OF THE RISEN BODY

All shall rise from the dead in their own, in their entire, and in immortal bodies; but the good shall rise to the resurrection of life, the wicked to the resurrection of Judgment. It would destroy the very idea of resurrection, if the dead were to rise in bodies not their own. Again, the resurrection, like the creation, is to be numbered amongst the principal works of God; hence, as at the creation all things are perfect from the hand of God, so at the resurrection all things must be perfectly restored by the same omnipotent hand.

The above looks in favor of a totally physical resurrection. However, the next sentence starts to change things.

But there is a difference between the earthly and the risen body; for the risen bodies of both saints and sinners shall be invested with immortality.

* The fourth quality is "subtility", by which the body becomes subject to the absolute dominion of the soul. This is inferred from the words of the Apostle: "It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body" (I Cor., xv, 44). The body participates in the soul's more perfect and spiritual life to such an extent that it becomes itself like a spirit. We see this quality exemplified in the fact that Christ passed through material objects.

So there is a few out there that see things as I do, in fact a quite a few because these quotes are taken from the Catholic Encyclopedia. Look it up under 'General Resurrection.'

As quoted this seems to support Justme's unorthodox doctrine. I did look it up and here is the entire paragraph from which two brief passages were selectively quoted to support an unorthodox view.

• 
  B. CHARACTERISTICS OF THE RISEN BODY
  
  All shall rise from the dead in their own, in their entire, and in immortal bodies; but the good shall rise to the resurrection of life, the wicked to the resurrection of Judgment. It would destroy the very idea of resurrection, if the dead were to rise in bodies not their own. Again, the resurrection, like the creation, is to be numbered amongst the principal works of God; hence, as at the creation all things are perfect from the hand of God, so at the resurrection all things must be perfectly restored by the same omnipotent hand. But there is a difference between the earthly and the risen body; for the risen bodies of both saints and sinners shall be invested with immortality. This admirable restoration of nature is the result of the glorious triumph of Christ over death as described in several texts of Sacred Scripture: Is., xxv, 8; Osee, xiii, 14; I Cor., xv, 26; Apoc., ii, 4. But while the just shall enjoy an endless felicity in the entirety of their restored members, the wicked "shall seek death, and shall not find it, shall desire to die, and death shall fly from them" (Apoc., ix, 6).
  
  These three characteristics, identity, entirety, and immortality, will be common to the risen the bodies of the just and the wicked. But the the bodies of the saints shall be distinguished by four transcendent endowments, often called qualities.

• The first is "impassibility", which shall place them beyond the reach of pain and inconvenience. "It is sown", says the Apostle, " in corruption, it shall rise in incorruption" (I Cor., xv, 42). The Schoolmen call this quality impassibility', not incorruption, so as to mark it as a peculiarity of the glorified bodies; the bodies of the da mned will be incorruptible indeed, but not impassible; they shall be subject to heat and cold, and all manner of pain.
  
• The next quality is "brightness", or "glory", by which the bodies of the saints shall shine like the sun. "It is sown in dishonour," says the Apostle, "it shall rise in glory" (I Cor., xv, 43; cf. Matt., xiii, 43; xvii, 2; Phil., iii, 21). All the bodies of the saints shall be equally impassible, but they shall be endowed with different degrees of glory. According to St. Paul: "One is the glory of the sun, another the glory of the moon, another the glory of the stars. For star differeth from star in glory"'(I Cor., xv, 41-42).
  
• The third quality is that of "agility", by which the body shall be freed from its slowness of motion, and endowed with the capability of moving with the utmost facility and quickness wherever the soul pleases. The Apostle says: "It [the body] is sown in weakness, it shall rise in power" (I Cor., xv, 43).
  
• The fourth quality is "subtility", by which the body becomes subject to the absolute dominion of the soul. This is inferred from the words of the Apostle: "It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body" (I Cor., xv, 44). The body participates in the soul's more perfect and spiritual life to such an extent that it becomes itself like a spirit. We see this quality exemplified in the fact that Christ passed through material objects.
  
  http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12792a.htm

 

[Justme]

Hi OS,

Thanks for putting that up. It is like I said isn't it? Most of the article would look to be against my view and then as they sum it up, it comes together.

What do you think of the other part of that ending with:

Quote.
But in spite of the foregoing congruities, theologians more generally incline to the opinion that in the state of pure nature there would have been no resurrection of the body. Unquote. the Catholic Encyclopedia....

It is just above it I think. The whole article seems to point away from my view and then it states the above.

Thanks

Justme

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 11:18 AM Justme said this in Post #3

Thanks for putting that up. It is like I said isn't it? Most of the article would look to be against my view and then as they sum it up, it comes together.

What do you think of the other part of that ending with:

Quote.
But in spite of the foregoing congruities, theologians more generally incline to the opinion that in the state of pure nature there would have been no resurrection of the body. Unquote. the Catholic Encyclopedia....

It is just above it I think. The whole article seems to point away from my view and then it states the above.

LOL, I knew you were going to come back with that. I almost replied to that in the previous post but I waited and sure enough here it is.

This statement is exactly right, "in the state of pure nature", there is no resurrection! Without the specific intervention of God, everything in the world conforms to the law of entropy, i.e. matter tends to decomposition, disentegration, and chaos, NOT order. Which OBTW is an excellent argument against the theory of evolution. But God does intervene on behalf of that which was created in His image.

Yes the whole article taken in context does in fact refute you theory. Only by reading one or two sentences and ignoring the context can you make it seem to support you.

 

[Justme]

Hi OS,

This statement is exactly right, "in the state of pure nature", there is no resurrection!

(That quote above doesn't convey your thoughts properly, it just came out that way.)

However, my question is, what is more of pure nature than this God that designed and constructed pure nature? And of course, the article says in pure nature ,which is what this whole existance is, there is no resurrection.

Let's try it another way. I'll show you verses that say the body returns to dust and you show me verses where the body is rebuilt from dust. You first?

Which OBTW is an excellent argument against the theory of evolution.

Actually if there were excellent arguments against the theory of evolution, there would be no theory of evolution. There is no conspiracy of scientists to discredit religious belief., only attempts by the religious to discredit science.

Okay,what is some verses that definately point to a physical, earthly resurrection?

Justme

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 02:12 PM Justme said this in Post #5

Hi OS,

(That quote above doesn't convey your thoughts properly, it just came out that way.)

However, my question is, what is more of pure nature than this God that designed and constructed pure nature? And of course, the article says in pure nature ,which is what this whole existance is, there is no resurrection.

It certainly does say exactly what I said it does. The only way you get it to say something else is, as I have been saying, you ignore the rest of the article and its conclusion and point to this one sentence out of context. "See it says there is no resurrection." Here is my presumption relating to this article. The writers of the Catholic Encyclopedia are not idiots. The theologians they are referring to are not idiots. Neither would knowingly write something that was self contradictory. And since they and I know something about science, the statement means exactly what I said it did. In the context of this article they are not using the word "pure" in the theological sense but the technical sense, nature unadulterated, nature without some outside force operating on it.

• 
  This statement is exactly right, "in the state of pure nature", there is no resurrection! Without the specific intervention of God, everything in the world conforms to the law of entropy, i.e. matter tends to decomposition, disentigration, and chaos, NOT order. Which OBTW is an excellent argument against the theory of evolution. But God does intervene on behalf of that which was created in His image.

Let's try it another way. I'll show you verses that say the body returns to dust and you show me verses where the body is rebuilt from dust. You first?

I'm way ahead of you the scriptures are already there in the article I quoted. Suppose you do show me verses which indicate that the body returns to dust. Is your god so inadequate that He cannot recompose bodies that He created in the first place?

Actually if there were excellent arguments against the theory of evolution, there would be no theory of evolution. There is no conspiracy of scientists to discredit religious belief., only attempts by the religious to discredit science.

Indicating that you have not read much about the issue. I have never heard of any scientist attempting to explain why the law of entropy, works in every other instance EXCEPT living creatures, particularly human beings.

 

[Justme]

Hi OS,

I was so glad to see you considered theologians to be somewhat trustworthy.
I started to look thru some Catholic schools of theology to find out how these catholic theologians had actually wanted this quote here to be understood. However, I immediately came across this writing by a distinquished theologian and decided to just cut and paste a bit of that. I came across this in a theology page of a Canadian University.

Here is this persons perception of Heaven.

Quote:What Is Heaven Like?

Death is a doorway from a natural world into a spiritual world. Behind the thin veil that conceals from our human eyes the Blessed Country there stands One who has gone to prepare a place for us and who will one day receive us unto Himself in eternal glory. Heaven is the perfect conpanionship of the believer with Christ, and death is but a transition into the deeper fellowship of His nearer presence.unquote:

This person says this about the 'body.'

Quote: Some theologians today prefer not to use the term "immortality" when they speak of the future life, lest the Greek idea of the natural immortality of the soul be suggested by it. But if "resurrection" is substituted as a better biblical word, we must be careful not to assume a resuscitation of these same bodies in which our spirits now are housed. When these die, we are finished with them.unquote:

The above are quotes from :


Georgia Harkness was educated at Cornell University, Boston University School of Theology, studied at Harvard & Yale theological seminaries and at Union Theological Seminary of New York. She has taught at Elmira College, Mount Holyoke, and for twelve years was professor of applied theology at Garrett Biblical Institute. In 1950 she became professor of applied theology at the Pacific School of Religion, in Berkeley, California. Published by The Graded Press, Nashville, Tennessee, 1961.

I'm way ahead of you the scriptures are already there in the article I quoted. Suppose you do show me verses which indicate that the body returns to dust. Is your god so inadequate that He cannot recompose bodies that He created in the first place?

Good, so you want to use them.

Here is the whole final quality:

# The fourth quality is "subtility", by which the body becomes subject to the absolute dominion of the soul. This is inferred from the words of the Apostle: "It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body" (I Cor., xv, 44). The body participates in the soul's more perfect and spiritual life to such an extent that it becomes itself like a spirit. We see this quality exemplified in the fact that Christ passed through material objects.

It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body....
Yes, exactly that is what I said and the theologian says the same thing.

Within the 'quality' description it says " The body participates in the soul's more perfect and spiritual life to such an extent it becomes itself like a spirit. That is what I've said all along.

Indicating that you have not read much about the issue. I have never heard of any scientist attempting to explain why the law of entropy, works in every other instance EXCEPT living creatures, particularly human beings.

Entropy!!!! You are right....who cares? BUT it only took 10 seconds to learn that the entropy, or state of disorder,of a pure crystal is zero at absolute zero. If science has figured that out I'm sure you can find any answers you want. I'll tell you before you look, it would be my opinion you will not find the correct answer at the christian science page or on DR. Dino.

If you want to understand evolution take a look thru the Hawaii situation or the Drumheller area of Alberta, Canada. Hawaii is a wild example of evolution in progress.

However, back to othodoxy.

Is your god so inadequate that He cannot recompose bodies that He created in the first place?

Ouch!! if He heard that, it's gonna hurt, cause there's only one God.

I never said He couldn't do it. BUT now you show me where He said Hewould do it. You know dern well I can show you verses where the body returns to dust,now you show me where God says He's going to 'recompose' your DEAD body from that DUST.

Justme

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 12:27 PM Justme said this in Post #7

Hi OS,

I was so glad to see you considered theologians to be somewhat trustworthy.

Oh do you mean that this article which you quoted in NOT reliable? Or are only one or two sentences, reliable, which are twisted completely out of their context, so that they seem to support you? If this article is NOT reliable why did you quote it or I should say misquote it.

I started to look thru some Catholic schools of theology to find out how these catholic theologians had actually wanted this quote here to be understood. However, I immediately came across this writing by a distinquished theologian and decided to just cut and paste a bit of that. I came across this in a theology page of a Canadian University.

Oh goody! You found one theologian (out of how hundreds and hundreds) that has a questionable theology.

Here is the whole final quality:

# The fourth quality is "subtility", by which the body becomes subject to the absolute dominion of the soul. This is inferred from the words of the Apostle: "It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body" (I Cor., xv, 44). The body participates in the soul's more perfect and spiritual life to such an extent that it becomes itself like a spirit. We see this quality exemplified in the fact that Christ passed through material objects.

Once again taking one small part from a longer article and deceptively trying to claim this separate section represents the main thought of the whole. But let's look at this which you mistakenly continue to insist contradicts the rest of the article and supports you.

"The body participates in the soul's more perfect and spiritual life to such an extent that it becomes itself like a spirit." Does this say that the body BECOMES a spirit? Or does it say the body "becomes like a spirit? Does this support the false unorthodox doctrine you have contrived? When something is "like" something else, does that mean it is the same thing?

"We see this quality exemplified in the fact that Christ passed through material objects." Does a shared "quality" mean the two things are exactly the same? Did Jesus have a body of flesh and blood after He resurrected? Or was His body purely spirit? Did His body, beginning with His resurrection from the tomb, pass through solid objects, or not? Did Jesus' body have some of the "qualities" of a spirit although it was flesh and blood?

It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body....
Yes, exactly that is what I said and the theologian says the same thing.

Not no way! Not no how!

Within the 'quality' description it says " The body participates in the soul's more perfect and spiritual life to such an extent it becomes itself like a spirit. That is what I've said all along.

No what you have been claiming all along, without a single bit of evidence or proof, is that the bodies of the dead do NOT resurrect but become spirits. NOT become like spirits.

Entropy!!!! You are right....who cares? BUT it only took 10 seconds to learn that the entropy, or state of disorder,of a pure crystal is zero at absolute zero. If science has figured that out I'm sure you can find any answers you want.

Is this supposed to make any kind of sense? Where does pure crystal exist? By pure do you mean in the theological sense or the technical?Where does absolute zero exist?

If you want to understand evolution take a look thru the Hawaii situation or the Drumheller area of Alberta, Canada. Hawaii is a wild example of evolution in progress.

Evolution! No such thing! There has never been any evidence of a transitional species found.

I never said He couldn't do it. BUT now you show me where He said Hewould do it. You know dern well I can show you verses where the body returns to dust,now you show me where God says He's going to 'recompose' your DEAD body from that DUST.

• KJV Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
  26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
  27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
  
  NIV 25 I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.
  26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;
  27 I myself will see him with my own eyes—I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!

 

[Justme]

Hi OS,

You have some concern about the reliability of the theologian I quoted. Perhaps you missed the credientials, Cornel, Harvard, Yale--she taught for 12 years so I assume that created those of like mind. The United Methodist church I think it was. Actually the United Church of Canada is a mix of many denominations, one of them being Methodist.

Anyway I found another basic belief here(below). What do you notice that doesn't fit scripture here? It is from a Robertson site.

God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. …Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly…the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell. …The righteous… will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord.

You quoted some verses from Job 19.

Here it is from Darby:

25 And [as for] me, I know that my Redeemer liveth, and the Last, he shall stand upon the earth;
26 And [if] after my skin this shall be destroyed, yet from out of my flesh shall I see +God;
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another: -- my reins are consumed within me.

You'll notice here his body is destroyed and his kidney is shot.

However, all that aside, the above is about Job, my question is to you. Where does the bible say YOU will be recomposed, as you call it?
If you want to try to tell me these three verses from Job apply to everybody, do it after you deal with the body to dust verses.

There is much more in your post I want to talk about, but I have to run.

I'll get back as soon as I can,
Justme

 

[Justme]

Hi OS,
Back to your post again.

"The body participates in the soul's more perfect and spiritual life to such an extent that it becomes itself like a spirit." Does this say that the body BECOMES a spirit? Or does it say the body "becomes like a spirit?

It says the same as Jesus did.???????

Matthew 22

29Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

So what are the angels of Heaven like? Whatever it is, that is what the dead will be like at their resurrection.

I guess I'm curious as to what you can possibly mean by a statement like, "Or does it say the body "becomes like a spirit?" A spirit is invisible , if something is LIKE a spirit it, too would be invisible. If it was visible it wouldn't be LIKE a spirit

Does this support the false unorthodox doctrine you have contrived?

No, it doesn't, it supports the CORRECT doctrine I have, over many decades, arrived at.

When something is "like" something else, does that mean it is the same thing?

Well, let's put it this way, it sure doesn't say it is the opposite. i.e. physical/spiritual

"We see this quality exemplified in the fact that Christ passed through material objects." Does a shared "quality" mean the two things are exactly the same?

Again, it sure doesn't mean they are opposite. Can a spirit go thru walls, apparently. Did Jesus walk thru walls, apparently.
From that you somehow want to say they are totally different???? Are they exactly the same?? Gee, I wonder, one is God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did Jesus have a body of flesh and blood after He resurrected? Or was His body purely spirit?

I think He manifested to that form when He met with Thomas, but you still have to fit this in.

Acts 10
40 " God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,
41 not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.

Is your god so inadequate that He cannot recompose HIMSELF?

Did Jesus' body have some of the "qualities" of a spirit although it was flesh and blood?

Because He was Man and God could He not have appeared as both? Well, actually He did occur as both. It was Jesus who actually started the ball rolling on the evolutionary plan that eventually created this great Heaven and earth, if you recall. Then He arrived in Bethlehem to take on His role as Man. The rest. as they say, is hiistory.

No what you have been claiming all along, without a single bit of evidence or proof, is that the bodies of the dead do NOT resurrect but become spirits. NOT become like spirits.

I would say that to call them actually spiritual bodies would be correct. Spiritual bodies, of course, are really a lot LIKE spiritual bodies. What can I tell you Dear forum????

And what's this bit about no proof? Have you not read the dozens of biblical verses I've laid out for you?

Evolution! No such thing! There has never been any evidence of a transitional species found.

Nothing like a thread within a thread to keep things moving.

Hawaii.
The islands have been formed by volcanic action. The islands are still being formed. I've flown over the Big Island a couple of times, about 5 years apart.
I estimate the island increased in height by about one inch or in Canadian talk, 2.54 centimeters. I know the ocean around Hawaii is deeper than I could scuba dive, but you can see a long ways in that water in some places. So let's say it is 1000 feet deep. So it goes up .2 inches per year and there are 7 islands that have been formed in sucession from the SE to NW( I thnk, my directions are mixed up down there) That would mean 420,000 years. Amazing isn't it?/???

What is really amazing is just think it over in your own mind..how much height is actually added to that island in one year. It is not even measureable. Now redo the calculation. The big thing is that the method of creation that constructed those islands is still in progress. God built Heaven and earth in six days, 6000 years ago....dream on.

What do you mean no transitional species has never been found.? Go out in your yard and look at a dandelion. That is not the same as it was 50 years ago.

Creation-evolution has not been an eiter/or argument for most since 1879 wasn't it when church leaders realized the evolutionary theory made sense,

I have just given you a layman's reason to consider evolution as an explanation of creation. Can you explain how you think God made this earth and everything on it. What are we talking here, magic wand waving, mortor and pestle, chants or what?? Some logic or scripture to back it up would be nice. I'd suggest scientific information, but I've already used that idea.

Somewhere in one of your posts you bolded the word BODY in a number of verses.

It is born a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.....Are you in some way, shape or form trying to make the stretch that the spiritual body isn't really a spiritual body????

Justme

 

[OldShepherd]

Yesterday at 05:48 AM Justme said this in Post #10

It says the same as Jesus did.???????

Matthew 22

29Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

So what are the angels of Heaven like? Whatever it is, that is what the dead will be like at their resurrection.

I guess I'm curious as to what you can possibly mean by a statement like, "Or does it say the body "becomes like a spirit?" A spirit is invisible , if something is LIKE a spirit it, too would be invisible. If it was visible it wouldn't be LIKE a spirit

No, it doesn't, it supports the CORRECT doctrine I have, over many decades, arrived at.

The FALSE doctrine that you, in much the same manner as other false teachers, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charlie Russell, Joe Smith, etc. concocted from several isolated out-of-context "proof texts" and which is NOT supported by sound exegesis of the scripture and certainly not by church history.

You keep trying to claim the article from the Catholic Encyclopedia says the same thing you are saying. But you are quoting that article in the same way you quote the Bible, a little here, a little there, some of this and some of that and context, forget about that.

After Jesus' resurrection He told His disciples He was flesh and bone, and His disciple John tells us at His coming we shall be like Him. That means to me "flesh and bone" LIKE Jesus, with SOME qualities of angels and spirits.

• 
  Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
  
  1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[Justme]

Hi OS,

The FALSE doctrine that you, in much the same manner as other false teachers, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charlie Russell, Joe Smith, etc. concocted from several isolated out-of-context "proof texts"

Jim Jones and David were both doomsdayers, I must assuredly wouldn't fit that.They taught the world was going to end and that the end of the world was a good thing. End of the world being physical death for any who believed differently than they did. Koresh thought he was jesus, I don't think that . Actually in the beginning Charlie would have thought a bit like you do. Charlie taught a Heavenly life for up to 144000 of his followers after the 1894, then the 1914 predicted parousia. Poor Charlie couldn't believe that there would be more than 144000 sign up, hence the 'new light' of the paradise earth to keep the converts coming in. Believe it or not the vacancies in Heaven petered out around 1935 for, the then Rutheford followers, and now they teach a fantastic final battle which only JW will survive and a perfect life on earth from then on with women bearing children and having time to learn to play guitar. Note:That is just two of the women I dealt with who didn't regret not having as many children as they wanted in this life and the other said the meetings took up her time and she would play guitar when she had forever when God's kingdom came to be. Paradise earth also makes it easier to allow children or others to die following WT doctrine if they believe they will all frolick on paradise earth later. Look at the May 22,!992,4 or 6 WatchTower or Awake and see the 24 children the WT praised for dying following WT rules.(I can't recall exact issue)

I don't know Joe Smith and let me tell you I find it extremely offensive to have somebody like you consider me to be anything like the WatchTower,pal.

You keep trying to claim the article from the Catholic Encyclopedia says the same thing you are saying. But you are quoting that article in the same way you quote the Bible, a little here, a little there, some of this and some of that and context, forget about that.

Let's show the people what you really are, old chap. I've sat here and watched you type out how I've misread this and not 'contexted' that and used one line of this to show the incorrect 'those'.

But dear forum, I actually said this:

From my first post:

I found a lengthy article that backs me up. This article goes on and on about Old Testament and NT verses that would indicate a bodily resurrection. It even stated that tradition followed that veiw through certain periods of history. It shows how certain arguments lean that way. Then the final sentence says this.
Quote.
But in spite of the foregoing congruities, theologians more generally incline to the opinion that in the state of pure nature there would have been no resurrection of the body. Unquote.

Boy, that's the way to try and sneak one by the forum isn't it? I sure was covering up wasn't I? Yes Dear forum, you can go ahead and jump in here, bring in a fresh thought, God help us if the truth comes out, eh, how would we ever deal with that.

There I got that frustration out of my system, now back to the post:

Well, actually there wasn't much substance to the post, you never dealt with hardly anything. Maybe later, eh?

After Jesus' resurrection He told His disciples He was flesh and bone, and His disciple John tells us at His coming we shall be like Him. That means to me "flesh and bone" LIKE Jesus, with SOME qualities of angels and spirits.

Yes, I'm aware you think you will be flesh and bone just like what you think Jesus is. That's why I posted those verses and gave that explanation saying nyet. Here's some more.

You remember when Jesus acended on the clouds?

Where was He going?

Well, to His Fathers house to prepare a place for you.

John 14
2 "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

Where is His Fathers house?

Well, it should be in the area of His throne. Where's His throne. Read all about it in all of Revelation Chapter 4. It is in Heaven. Makes sense because if God's house was on earth, Jesus wouldn't have had to GO anywhere to prepare a place for you.

What is in Heaven?

Rev 6

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

Well, it seems there are some souls there, have you ever really saw a soul or ever hope to see one?

From the earthly fragile tent to the lasting building we dwell in , in Heaven.

2 Cor 5
Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

Gee, that takes us right back to John 14 where Jesus talks about the house and it;s eternal yet..everlasting.

Do you remember where Paul said flesh and blood can't inherit Heaven? Oh, but you say this is flesh and BONE, whoopie. Anyway flesh still can't go so this new glorified body is a skeleton or what????

Anyway somehow we are going to meet with the Lord in the air and remain there with the Lord. In the air....not meet in the air and remain on the ground. Remember God's kingdom is not seen, it is within you.Luke 17

1 Thess 4
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

REALLY.,always with the Lord!!!!!!where is the Lord because that is where the WE paul was talking to would be.

That would be what John's vision shows here:

Rev 22

1 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,
2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

The above is Revelation's symbolic story of Heaven. The good folk can enter in there. However, the following is still going on. I'm going to copy a few extra verses because I am really sick of listenening to this 'context' argument

Rev 22

7"Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book."
8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"
10Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. 11Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."
12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

May I paraphrase for you.

John saw in his vision the story of the coming of the son of man, the establishment of the kingdom of God, the beginning of the Heavenly eternal life of the righteous, symbolically speaking the new life within the city of Jerusalem. BUT even tho Jesus is in Heaven and it's "all systems go!!!!!" the bad guys will carry on being bad and the good will continue to be good. This carries on outside of Heaven , out where the dogs are.

5Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Don't think that it is only the immoral, the idolaters and the liars that are out there because of:

Rev 14

13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

Just read the rest of that chapter to be sure you get it fully in 'context.'

There you go, now where does the bible say that you, OldShepherd, will be 'recomposed,'

I know where the bible says you are born into this world as a physical body, and I know where the bible says you are changed to a spiritual body and I know where it says you may possibly arrive in Heaven, but where does the bible say you are changed back a third time to anything whatever? (you... not JOB)

Justme

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 08:20 AM Justme said this in Post #12

I don't know Joe Smith and let me tell you I find it extremely offensive to have somebody like you consider me to be anything like the WatchTower,pal.

I don't much care what you find offensive. You have concocted your own interpretation of the scriptures much in the same manner as all those I mentioned. Your own private religion, is not supported by any church history whatsoever. You blew off the church fathers when I referred to them.

I believe that God is true to His word and Jesus is true to His word. Therefore it is impossible for the church to have been in apostasy for 2000 years, until you came along to get it all straight. Jesus said the gates of Hell would not prevail against His church but acccording to your religion the gates of hell has prevailed against the church until now and you supposedly have the truth that nobody else in the world can understand except you.

Let's show the people what you really are, old chap. I've sat here and watched you type out how I've misread this and not 'contexted' that and used one line of this to show the incorrect 'those'.

But dear forum, I actually said this:

From my first post:

I found a lengthy article that backs me up. This article goes on and on about Old Testament and NT verses that would indicate a bodily resurrection. It even stated that tradition followed that veiw through certain periods of history. It shows how certain arguments lean that way. Then the final sentence says this.
Quote.
But in spite of the foregoing congruities, theologians more generally incline to the opinion that in the state of pure nature there would have been no resurrection of the body.

I would be real careful about using phrases like "what you are" this is borderline "flaming." And I have pointed out how you quoted that one sentence out-of-context. And this reposting of it ignores the discussion I posted before. First it is NOT the final sentence of the article, it is the final sentence of the third section of the article and is followed by the concluding section. The article concludes by showing how the resurrected body is in some ways like a spirit. Therefore the article does NOT support your view.

Do you remember where Paul said flesh and blood can't inherit Heaven? Oh, but you say this is flesh and BONE, whoopie. Anyway flesh still can't go so this new glorified body is a skeleton or what????

You have NOT addressed Luke 24:39 and 1 John 3:2.

• 
  Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
  
  1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
  
  Philp 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
  
  2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
  18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Jesus was flesh and bone, nothing in the Bible says He changed into a spirit, before ascending to heaven. John and Paul say we will be like Him.

There you go, now where does the bible say that you, OldShepherd, will be 'recomposed,'

I know where the bible says you are born into this world as a physical body, and I know where the bible says you are changed to a spiritual body and I know where it says you may possibly arrive in Heaven, but where does the bible say you are changed back a third time to anything whatever? (you... not JOB)Justme [/B]

Was Job a different kind of human being than we are? Jesus was flesh and bones, the Bible says we will be like Him.

 

[Justme]

Hi OS,

I don't much care what you find offensive.

Fair enough, but are you sure you want me to really take the the gloves off and treat you the same way.

Your own private religion, is not supported by any church history whatsoever. You blew off the church fathers when I referred to them.

I'll just copy a bit from Harkness who taught theology for 12 years in the U.S.

Quote: Some theologians today prefer not to use the term "immortality" when they speak of the future life, lest the Greek idea of the natural immortality of the soul be suggested by it. But if "resurrection" is substituted as a better biblical word, we must be careful not to assume a resuscitation of these same bodies in which our spirits now are housed. When these die, we are finished with them.unquote:

Let's see now.... you said no history what so ever and here we have a direct quote from ..... Dear forum do you see anything a bit wrong here in OS's reply???????

I believe that God is true to His word and Jesus is true to His word. Therefore it is impossible for the church to have been in apostasy for 2000 years, until you came along to get it all straight.

Isn't that funny, I believe the same thing. Just read the above quote as if I had wrote it to you. Like when did this talk about a rapture start anyway?

Jesus said the gates of Hell would not prevail against His church but acccording to your religion the gates of hell has prevailed against the church until now and you supposedly have the truth that nobody else in the world can understand except you.

Let's see, first that quote from Harkness agrees with me and I think I mentioned I don't personally know of anybody who I would call a doomsdayer except one old JW.. So there are a few that understands it like I do. The second coming being at the personal death idea.

You have NOT addressed Luke 24:39 and 1 John 3:2.

Perhaps you just missed it!!!!!!!

I'll cut and paste one spot where I talked about it.

**************
I think He manifested to that form when He met with Thomas, but you still have to fit this in.

Acts 10
40 " God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,
41 not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.

Is your god so inadequate that He cannot recompose HIMSELF?
*******************************

So fit it in for me OS. Jesus was not made visible to all the people only certain ones. Were you mentioned in the group of "certain ones"? If not where in the bible does it tell us that Jesus now is made visible to other LIVING people? I know where the bible tells us He meets with some DEAD people. Come to think of it I've been around people when they died and never saw Jesus come to deliver the judgement, how could that be considering John 11:25,26???????

I wrote this to OS.

There you go, now where does the bible say that you, OldShepherd, will be 'recomposed,'

I know where the bible says you are born into this world as a physical body, and I know where the bible says you are changed to a spiritual body and I know where it says you may possibly arrive in Heaven, but where does the bible say you are changed back a third time to anything whatever? (you... not JOB)Justme [/B]


Was Job a different kind of human being than we are? Jesus was flesh and bones, the Bible says we will be like Him.

OS replied by asking another question which is just above about Job being a different kind of human etc....

So where is Jesus now?

Are His flesh and bones VISIBLE now?

When Jesus gives that judgement to the DEAD is He visible to the LIVING or not?

Do you teach that the angels of Heaven have flesh and bones?

Justme

 

[rnmomof7]

8th April 2003 at 10:29 PM OldShepherd said this in Post #4


LOL, I knew you were going to come back with that. I almost replied to that in the previous post but I waited and sure enough here it is.

This statement is exactly right, "in the state of pure nature", there is no resurrection! Without the specific intervention of God, everything in the world conforms to the law of entropy, i.e. matter tends to decomposition, disentegration, and chaos, NOT order. Which OBTW is an excellent argument against the theory of evolution. But God does intervene on behalf of that which was created in His image.

Yes the whole article taken in context does in fact refute you theory. Only by reading one or two sentences and ignoring the context can you make it seem to support you.

Excellent response!

 

[rnmomof7]

9th April 2003 at 12:12 AM Justme said this in Post #5

Hi OS,



(That quote above doesn't convey your thoughts properly, it just came out that way.)

However, my question is, what is more of pure nature than this God that designed and constructed pure nature? And of course, the article says in pure nature ,which is what this whole existance is, there is no resurrection.

Let's try it another way. I'll show you verses that say the body returns to dust and you show me verses where the body is rebuilt from dust. You first?



Actually if there were excellent arguments against the theory of evolution, there would be no theory of evolution. There is no conspiracy of scientists to discredit religious belief., only attempts by the religious to discredit science.

Okay,what is some verses that definately point to a physical, earthly resurrection?

Justme

Are you a member of the Church of God or another follower of Armstrong?

 

[Justme]

Hi rnmomof7.

I support the United Church of Canada which was formed by a merger of Methodist, Presbyterian and one I can't remember. It is the largest protestant denomination in Canada as far as I know-----No talk of rapture, everyone hoping to meet Jesus, but nobody in a hurry to meet Jesus, because when you meet Jesus you're dead.

Justme

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 02:42 PM Justme said this in Post #17

Hi rnmomof7.

I support the United Church of Canada which was formed by a merger of Methodist, Presbyterian and one I can't remember. It is the largest protestant denomination in Canada as far as I know-----No talk of rapture, everyone hoping to meet Jesus, but nobody in a hurry to meet Jesus, because when you meet Jesus you're dead.

Justme

Do you realize that the theology that you are affirming (if I read you right) ..a spiritual resurrection and not a physical one puts you outside professing Christianity and in bed with the JW's and Armstrong cults?

BTW I also do not asscribe to the rapture..I believe when Jesus comes it will be to judge the Living and the dead..

 

[Justme]

Hi rnmomof7,

I am very familiar with the WTBS and they teach a soul sleep and eventually a total resurrection? to a paradise earth.
The paradise earth is life as we know it today minus any bad stuff. They consider they will have children, carry on family life, and live pure lives with no hardships or ill health,etc. They wil help God refurbish this earth.

One JW woman I talked to was disappointed here on earth in this life because she couldn't have but one child (for financial reasons) but was not in the least concerned. She felt she could have many more in paradise earth.

In days gone by JW used to plan how they could take over stars homes in California after Armaggeden because the wicked stars would not survive Armaggeddon and wouldn't need them. I doubt you will hear a JW say such things today, but I've heard them say it in the past.

For a JW a spiritual (heavenly) existance is impossible because there is no room in Heaven. They will tell you only 144000 were ever slated to go to Heaven in the fist place.


I have no idea what Armstrong teaches. sorry.

I have considerable information on JW if you are interested.

BTW I also do not asscribe to the rapture..I believe when Jesus comes it will be to judge the Living and the dead..

Yes, you see I would say that as well, however, we may differ on when and how Jesus returns. However, I agree with you that the bible says Jesus will return to judge you and I. We may also not agree on the location of the future eternal life, but apparently we both see the bible as saying there IS eternal life.

I'd be interested in how you feel this all unfolds.

Thank you and take care,

Justme

 

[rnmomof7]

Today at 06:39 PM Justme said this in Post #19

Hi rnmomof7,

I am very familiar with the WTBS and they teach a soul sleep and eventually a total resurrection? to a paradise earth.
The paradise earth is life as we know it today minus any bad stuff. They consider they will have children, carry on family life, and live pure lives with no hardships or ill health,etc. They wil help God refurbish this earth.

Who is the WTBS?

One JW woman I talked to was disappointed here on earth in this life because she couldn't have but one child (for financial reasons) but was not in the least concerned. She felt she could have many more in paradise earth.

That sounds like Mormonism not the JW's

In days gone by JW used to plan how they could take over stars homes in California after Armaggeden because the wicked stars would not survive Armaggeddon and wouldn't need them. I doubt you will hear a JW say such things today, but I've heard them say it in the past.

For a JW a spiritual (heavenly) existance is impossible because there is no room in Heaven. They will tell you only 144000 were ever slated to go to Heaven in the fist place.


I have no idea what Armstrong teaches. sorry.

I have considerable information on JW if you are interested.

Actually the deny the trinity , and the bodily resurrection of Christ and in the end Our bodily resurrection...they believe that we will be "absorbed" into the godhead (family of God.

The Holy Spirit is not God but they will be.

They are a cult

And my young friend if you deny the bodily resurrection you can not call yourself a christian either..

Yes, you see I would say that as well, however, we may differ on when and how Jesus returns. However, I agree with you that the bible says Jesus will return to judge you and I. We may also not agree on the location of the future eternal life, but apparently we both see the bible as saying there IS eternal life.

I'd be interested in how you feel this all unfolds.

Thank you and take care,

Justme