Controversial Tithing Debate

TPop said:

Here is some.

[1Co 9:1-14, 19 KJV] 1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? 2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord. 3 Mine answer to them that do examine me is this, 4 Have we not power to eat and to drink? 5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and [as] the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? 6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working? 7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? 8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 10 Or saith he [it] altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, [this] is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. 11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, [is it] a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? 12 If others be partakers of [this] power over you, [are] not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. 13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live [of the things] of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. ... 19 For though I be free from all [men], yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

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Very good. I wasn't arguing with you, I just think it's helpful to cite scripture when making certain statements. So can we agree that God wants us to give to the needy and also provide provision for teachers?

Aso as a side note, it's a bit rude and presumptuous to keep telling people they are incorrect. I think it's better to say that you disagree.

You are correct. It would be much better for me to state that scripture does not back this instead of saying Incorrect.

Please forgive me.

TPop said:

NT support of teachers is.

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No, the subject of the tread is tithing.

TPop said:

And Paul speaks to this in a number of places. If one wants a teacher that supports himself and his family and takes time away from his preparation to teach you? Then that is the type of teacher one will receive.

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We can support clergy and those who teach the faith without tithing.
Paul was a teacher who supported himself so as not to be a burden to his churches.

Strong in Him said:

No, the subject of the tread is tithing.

We can support clergy and those who teach the faith without tithing.
Paul was a teacher who supported himself so as not to be a burden to his churches.

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Tithing in 2024 is about supporting the church.
NT scripture is about supporting teachers.

Paul worked so that the church of Corinth could not lay claim to him and his works.

Peace and Blessings

TPop said:

Tithing in 2024 is about supporting the church.

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My point is that some Christians say we should tithe because it is Scriptural, and the leaders get quite legalistic about it.
Bit the tithe, according to Scripture, is food - so if people are going to get dogmatic about tithing being Scriptural, they should follow it as it is laid down in Scripture.

We don't know whether NT leaders were paid or not, except that Paul worked as a tentmaker so as to not be a financial burden on his churches.

MForbes said:

I know one thing…there’s a lot of church pastors trying to convince there flock to cough up 10% of their spoils because Abraham did the same thing ONCE.

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I wonder a lot if Pastors weren't under stress of trying to make sure they have money to pay mortgages on church buildings and upkeep if they truly would believe there's a mandate to give a 10 %, I'm wondering if some people's stress decides their theology on this issue. if church was done in homes......no church mortage.....no new roofs to have t put on no new this or that......maybe they'd then believe one should just give according to what they feel they can? What do you think?

Strong in Him said:

My point is that some Christians say we should tithe because it is Scriptural, and the leaders get quite legalistic about it.
Bit the tithe, according to Scripture, is food - so if people are going to get dogmatic about tithing being Scriptural, they should follow it as it is laid down in Scripture.

We don't know whether NT leaders were paid or not, except that Paul worked as a tentmaker so as to not be a financial burden on his churches.

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I believe you need to do a lot more study on supporting your church, teachers, and missionaries than what you currently know. It happened to me also. There are gifts beyond the gift of Salvation. And those additional gifts are not equal for all.

NT Christians do not Tithe. Do not need to tithe. Not literally. Tithing is OT Law.

But we are supposed to support our teachers. That has evolved into supporting the Church. We are also supposed to support the Widows and Orphans. And churches have other ministries that cannot proceed without support. A church down the road has a Mechanics Ride On ministry. 3rd Saturday of every month we help do mechanical work on cars for the poor and homeless. It is free to sliding scale pricing. We work for free. Things like this do not occur out of nothing. The main mechanic donated probably $100k in tools. We can do just about everything. The church built the two-car garage to hold all the tools, put in the lifts, and as a place to work. No support to the church. No support for the poor, homeless, widows, and orphans either.

Jesus does not require us to partake of a legalistic 'Tithing' system.

But Paul does commanded the churches to support the saints.

[1Co 16:1-2 KJV] 1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first [day] of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as [God] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Paul also commends the Philippians.

[Phl 4:15-19 KJV] 15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. 16 For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity. 17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. 18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things [which were sent] from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God. 19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

We store up I Heaven Gems, Gold, Silver, hay, and stubble. We receive gifts based upon these things when done for the right reason and done with joy and appreciation.

I support my church with 10%+. I also give above and beyond that in providing 5%+ support to missionaries. I do not earn a lot. My wife earns half what I do. I cannot wait to see what God has in store for us for being giving, supporting, and generous. Every person who comes to God through my church and the 30+ missionaries we support, we partake in their success. Because we are partnered with them.

Failing to partner with your church and missionaries, or doing so limitedly will be the same results one will receive in gifts from Jesus in Heaven.

Every man is to give as they see fit. And your rewards will be based upon your giving.

Paul again teaches.
[1Co 16:1-2 KJV] 1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first [day] of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as [God] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

The CEO of quaker oats gave something like 90% of his earnings to the church. That spread the gospel over hill and dale, near and far. If one thinks they can support their church and missionaries with $5 a month, and receive the same, they will be surprised.

People spend more tipping servers at restaurants than supporting their church. Those people will be rewarded as such.

Peace and Blessings

TPop said:

I believe you need to do a lot more study on supporting your church, teachers, and missionaries than what you currently know.

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I wasn't talking about supporting my church, teachers and missionaries - which I agree with and practice.
I responded to this thread which is on tithing.

TPop said:

NT Christians do not Tithe. Do not need to tithe. Not literally. Tithing is OT Law.

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And that was my only point.

TPop said:

Tithing in 2024 is about supporting the church.
NT scripture is about supporting teachers.

Paul worked so that the church of Corinth could not lay claim to him and his works.

Peace and Blessings

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What if the congregation isn't lage enough to finance the pastor enough so that he doesn't need a regular job?

Tithing is my personal conviction, even while I am [church-adjacent?].
I have no pastor "twisting my arm."

Ceallaigh said:

What if the congregation isn't lage enough to finance the pastor enough so that he doesn't need a regular job?

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Hello, my friend, Great question!

You would support your Bible Teacher as best you can. There is no call to supply all his needs from just 5 or 10 people. But if I had more money, and was one of a few, and had an amazing bible teacher, I would go above and beyond to get him the support he needed to grow the students. Because I benefit from that myself and from others coming to Jesus through him and my support.

I was part of a home church of just 5 families. Everyone was poor. Some were unequally yoked. I gave as much as I could. And when I moved away, I still gave here and there.

Peace and Blessings

seeker2122 said:

I don't prefer to give 10% of my finances to people I don't fully trust or believe are doing God's work,...

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I would not trust the teachings of a church, if I considered them to be faithless with the finances they are entrusted with. (The books at my affiliated church are public and they have an annual meeting to discuss them.)

seeker2122 said:

I always feel guilty if I don't put 10% exactly of my paycheck into the offering box. I want to stop feeling guilty like I'm being a bad Christian for not giving 10% finances...

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I do not tithe out of guilt. I tithe out of obedience AND the attached promise in Malachi 3 where God invites us to test Him on the matter. He has been faithful in that regard. Before tithing and after is like "night & day...!"

We still give above & beyond as we are able, but that is a different issue.

seeker2122 said:

I always feel guilty if I don't put 10% exactly of my paycheck into the offering box. I want to stop feeling guilty like I'm being a bad Christian for not giving 10% finances

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The point is that giving 10% of your pay cheque isn't Scriptural. So if you didn't do it you wouldn't be doing something that wasn't Scriptural.
If you look up "tithe" in a concordance, most of the verses that mention it come from the OT, and if you look them up you'll find that the tithe was always food - 10% of a person's crops. Then they took these to the Temple, had them blessed and sat down and ate their tithe. They were told to include the priests and the poor, but the message was to eat and enjoy the blessings God had given.

Some Christian leaders have translated that into "you have to give 10% of what you earn to the church" (i.e. the first fruits of your wages) - and then teach that that is the Scriptural teaching on tithing. It isn't. The first part of our wages goes to the tax man, not to God.
Jesus didn't teach tithing. And the early church pattern was either to give everything, or to give what they had decided before God to give - because God loves a cheerful giver, not one who does it from compulsion or guilt.

If you have decided that you WANT to give 10% to God; do so, and don't let others dissuade you. But that would be your own, prayerful, decision, not a Scriptural one.

Strong in Him said:

Then they took these to the Temple, had them blessed and sat down and ate their tithe. They were told to include the priests and the poor, but the message was to eat and enjoy the blessings God had given.

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That is not consistent with Malachi 3:10,
"Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,..."

A "storehouse" means that the tithe is/was for future use, not an immediate meal.

Sabertooth said:

That is not consistent with Malachi 3:10,
"Bring all the tithes into the storehouse,..."

A "storehouse" means that the tithe is/was for future use, not an immediate meal.

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Look at the context.
Malachi had been saying that people were robbing God because they had been withholding tithes. He told them to take their WHOLE tithe into the store house, "that there may be food in my house". The tithe was always food.
According to Deuteronomy 14:22, the people should have been bringing 1/10 of all that their fields produced each year. They were to take it to the place the Lord had commanded and EAT it, Deuteronomy 14:23. After every 3 years they were to take their tithes into their own towns and give it to Levites and foreigners, Deuteronomy 26:12.
If the people had been withholding tithes and not taking them each year, Malachi was telling them to give God what they owed him.

seeker2122 said:

Some people believe in literal tithing which is to give 10% of your income to God.
Some people believe it's not meant to be literally 10% but meaning simply to give to
God your best and be generous (give with a cheerful heart rather than giving disgruntled).

Then we have to define what does it mean to give to God? How do you give tithing to
God exactly? The church? Missions? Other charitable projects or recipients?

So here is a question I have specifically about giving "tithing" to your church.
Is there anything wrong with giving to your church in the form of "good works/generosity"
and not financially? So for example, let's say I don't want to give the church $200 a month
but I'd prefer to give them $80 a month and the other $120 I'll give to the church in the form
of paying it forward like taking people out for lunches/dinners, treating them with food,
snacks, gifts, and driving people to and from places so spending gas money and time etc.

Would you say this is acceptable form of tithing or do you think tithing should be specifically
monetary and then doing charitable acts is just bonus and out of your own good heart?

Also, I believe the leaders of the church who may be privy to members tithing stats, might
start to judge or develop a reputation around a person who is not tithing and even start
to condemn or resent them. I can sort of understand on the one hand, if you are a member
of a church and use their services such as sunday worship, snack/food time, events, programs
and you don't even give the church offering, you'd be like dead weight or "lazy welfare"
people who just eat up the systems resources without contributing or giving anything back.
In that sense, I can understand why some elders, leaders, (whoever is running the church) might
start to feel a little resentment towards you but may not say it directly because they are "christian"
and don't want to come off as being coercive and bullying.

At the same time, I think it's also a negative sign of a church that treats its members differently
based on how much they tithe or don't tithe. So you know that Johnny here is giving 100% of tithing
each week/month/year but Sally here is being cheap considering she makes good money.

Regardless of how much or how little you tithe, shouldn't a church not judge and treat you differently
because of it? Otherwise it seems like the church is just a business and cares more about your money
than they actually care about your soul.

If I don't trust or agree with the church's way of doing things but still want to be part of the church, isn't
fine for me to limit my monetary tithing and decide instead I'm going to give by doing things personally
for others in the church (lunch, dinner, drives, volunteering, etc.)?

What do you think?

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Note: I haven't read this full thread.
My understanding is that tithe literally means 10% - so to tithe is to give 10% by definition.
I do not believe that the New Testament requires people in the church to tithe,
Acts 2:44 ff - And all who believed were together and had all things in common. And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need.
Not finished, sorry, but got to go.

seeker2122 said:

I agree. So then my original position of tithing/giving in my own way to church/God is correct? I don't prefer to give 10% of my finances to people I don't fully trust or believe are doing God's work, so I will choose to give in my own way by caring for people, buying them meals, driving them, giving my time and energy for them. I always feel guilty if I don't put 10% exactly of my paycheck into the offering box. I want to stop feeling guilty like I'm being a bad Christian for not giving 10% finances even though I give more than 10% of my time, energy, and heart to giving in other ways.

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Paul talks about financially supporting teachers, or those teachers must work to provide for their families. Do you want a part-time brain surgeon or a full-time brain surgeon? Regardless, God tells us we must have full-time teachers.

You know. I was there with you for a long time. I did not even go to church because the church and pastor that came into my restaurant were mean, evil and rude. The pastor was 'do you know who I am?' when told there was a wait. The church members tipped poorly. And their kids wiped feces on the bathroom walls. That was a 6k member megachurch in Sacramento, Ca.

Finally, I got over it and Satan fooling me into not going to church. So I went. And put in $40 now and then. We were poor.

I started supporting/tithing or whatever one likes to call it. I gave $100 a month. Then every two weeks. Then every week. Then... I don't particularly know how much I give. I don't need to. I am not rich financially. My wife has almost always made more than me. My wife quit working at a hospital over vaccine mandates and bullying where she was making ~$85k/yr before taxes. Now she makes $40k a year before taxes. I am significantly shy of her $85k.

But we just kept jumping up and increasing our $ amount. Then we added another $100/mnth for Missionaries. Then $200, then...

And when she took her pay cut. We did not reduce our support at all. We just trusted God and got comfortable in what we were giving. Which is more than 10%

At this time, 1/2 of one of my two paychecks go to the church and missionaries each month. I'm not missing it. And that is where you want to get to.

Because support is commanded. And above and beyond that add treasures in Heaven of Precious Gems, Gold, and Silber.

And the giving came slowly'ish over 7 to maybe 10 years. Because I could not jump into it. And had I, I would have put it off forever. So I started slow and gave more and more and am now comfortable with what we give back to, and Receive from God. He pays my paycheck. Not my company.

Never forget that. Jesus is your paycheck. And I am not a name it and claim it deceiver. I do not believe that untruth at all. Most of it is based upon things in scripture that do not apply to NT Christians.

Also, I did not want my money wasted either. For a few years, I felt that and held back some. Then I just realized Jesus is trusting me to support my teachers/church/missionaries, etc. So I Will trust Him that others will spend our support money to the best of their abilities. And beyond that, it is of no concern to me. It is out of my hands. I am not the one responsible for bad money management by the church, elders, etc. Does not mean I would not leave or something else if I knew otherwise.

Going your own way is not what we are told. That will likely not bring you added blessings. Go the way Paul directs. Support your teachers. Missionaries. Start where you are. When you get a raise, add some, most, all of it to your support check. Mine is auto-sent by my bank and I don't even miss it. Obedient in the Little things so that you are trusted with the Larger things.

Peace and Blessings

seeker2122 said:

I agree. So then my original position of tithing/giving in my own way to church/God is correct? I don't prefer to give 10% of my finances to people I don't fully trust or believe are doing God's work, so I will choose to give in my own way by caring for people, buying them meals, driving them, giving my time and energy for them. I always feel guilty if I don't put 10% exactly of my paycheck into the offering box. I want to stop feeling guilty like I'm being a bad Christian for not giving 10% finances even though I give more than 10% of my time, energy, and heart to giving in other ways.

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You are trying to be in control. But you are not. So don't try to be. It is wasted energy, anxiety, and emotions. If you don't trust them. Find a new one. If there is no other. Do it anyway. Jesus knows why you do it. If you only do it out of trust in other people, that will Always fail you. That is not what He wants. Trust Him. Grow your support. Abort the worry over what they do with it. It is still accounted to you! They did not steal from you. They steal from Jesus. You do the right thing. Regardless of what others do. You'll be much happier in time that way.

Peace and Blessings