Contraception

[PreachersWife2004]

And this is the one thing lacking by most in this whole argument - STEWARDSHIP, which is also a command of God.

I will say that my husband also mentioned, although he treads carefully when counseling on the matter. Like I mentioned above there really is no perfect time to bring a child into the world.

 

[Redhead11]

Redhead11, are you who I think you are (nine kids gives away some of that)? I think we know each other from other boards and FB.

Howdy and welcome here.... from a really old codger

Are you that guy who I sent a "old codger" picture to where he danced "Wiggle, wiggle ... ouch!" to?

 

[filosofer]

Just an outsider’s perspective (in more than one way). I have many thoughts regarding this topic, but will not share them here.

This thread makes me sad for several reasons. I always wanted 12 kids. Didn’t happen. As it turned out, we couldn’t have any biological children. Yes, we adopted older children from Korea. They are now 43 and 40 years old.

But we have borne the brunt of many offhand comments from family members and friends that our children are not really “ours,” and not really part of the family. Another close relative has four boys by three different husbands. She could get pregnant by sneezing. Those children (now adults) are often considered on that side of the family as “real family members.”

We have been blessed with five grandchildren and one great-grandchild. But they live 2500 miles away. And we delight in them whenever we can see them (about once every two years).

Ministry to people in all of these kinds of situations (mentioned throughout the thread) requires patience, love, and understanding. Unfortunately Christians often don’t exhibit any of those characteristics. And from first-hand experience, I know how that can hurt when the person desires to faithfully serve God.

Okay, so now I bow out.

 

[Redhead11]

I'm not pre-Sem or in Sem. I did study philosophy in undergrad and was exposed to alot of theology by way of course (Augustine, Aquinas, Luther came up once in a while), not always Lutheran ones (public college).

I would love to see where a Lutheran theologian says to balance Law and Gospel. Walther explicitly says when constructing a sermon to have the Gospel predominate.

The Apology, V.I

As the distinction between the Law and the Gospel is a special brilliant light, which serves to the end that God's Word may be rightly divided, and the Scriptures of the holy prophets and apostles may be properly explained and understood, we must guard it with especial care, in order that these two doctrines may not be mingled with one another, or a law be made out of the Gospel, whereby the merit of Christ is obscured and troubled consciences are robbed of their comfort, which they otherwise have in the holy Gospel when it is preached genuinely and in its purity, and by which they can support themselves in their most grievous trials against the terrors of the Law.

No one is talking about "mingling" them together.

When we speak about our faith, we don't pound people with just the law. The Baptists do that well enough

We balance the message with an the Gospel.

GOOD EXAMPLE:
We are sinner (the Law), Christ died for those sins (the Gospel).

BAD EXAMPLE:
Those who even lust in their minds sin. Do not even look at women whose breasts are virtually hanging out. Love your wife. (all Law, no Gospel)

 

[cerette]

From a quickie google search (meaning I haven't really looked AT the page, just the quotes)

Home Page

ETA: Pretty harsh words, actually, especially from Martin Luther. Not surprising.

Thanks, will look at this tonight

 

[Redhead11]

Just an outsider’s perspective (in more than one way). I have many thoughts regarding this topic, but will not share them here.

This thread makes me sad for several reasons. I always wanted 12 kids. Didn’t happen. As it turned out, we couldn’t have any biological children. Yes, we adopted older children from Korea. They are now 43 and 40 years old.

But we have borne the brunt of many offhand comments from family members and friends that our children are not really “ours,” and not really part of the family. Another close relative has four boys by three different husbands. She could get pregnant by sneezing. Those children (now adults) are often considered on that side of the family as “real family members.”

We have been blessed with five grandchildren and one great-grandchild. But they live 2500 miles away. And we delight in them whenever we can see them (about once every two years).

Ministry to people in all of these kinds of situations (mentioned throughout the thread) requires patience, love, and understanding. Unfortunately Christians often don’t exhibit any of those characteristics. And from first-hand experience, I know how that can hurt when the person desires to faithfully serve God.

Okay, so now I bow out.

Great comment!

 

[alexnbethmom]

Just an outsider’s perspective (in more than one way). I have many thoughts regarding this topic, but will not share them here.

This thread makes me sad for several reasons. I always wanted 12 kids. Didn’t happen. As it turned out, we couldn’t have any biological children. Yes, we adopted older children from Korea. They are now 43 and 40 years old.

But we have borne the brunt of many offhand comments from family members and friends that our children are not really “ours,” and not really part of the family. Another close relative has four boys by three different husbands. She could get pregnant by sneezing. Those children (now adults) are often considered on that side of the family as “real family members.”

We have been blessed with five grandchildren and one great-grandchild. But they live 2500 miles away. And we delight in them whenever we can see them (about once every two years).

Ministry to people in all of these kinds of situations (mentioned throughout the thread) requires patience, love, and understanding. Unfortunately Christians often don’t exhibit any of those characteristics. And from first-hand experience, I know how that can hurt when the person desires to faithfully serve God.

Okay, so now I bow out.

filo - this makes me unbelievably sad, that family would actually not just make you feel, but actually say, that they are not "real" family....i can't wrap my brain around that.

adopting children is a beautiful, selfless act. if we had not been able to have children, we would have adopted.

i want to take what filo has said, and go a little further with it:

they could not have biological children, and they wanted children, so they adopted. going with the thought process of some here, if they could have had children, they should have just kept having children until they were unable to have them anymore. so, then, should they have kept adopting until they just couldn't adopt anymore?

when my late husband and i had our first child, he started becoming ill (my husband, not my child). by the time our 2nd child came around, he was getting worse. by the time our 2nd child was about 3 1/2, i was the only one working because he could no longer work, because of all his illnesses. his medical report was at least a foot thick. we had discussed having 3 children, but knowing how sick he was, we decided that if something happened to him, it would not be fair to me to leave me to raise 3 all by myself, and so i went on birth control. my husband passed away 1 month after our 2nd child turned 7 years old.

how smart a decision would that have been to just say "oh forget it, whatever will be will be" and have a 3rd child knowing how sick my husband was, and that he was THAT close to death's door? it's called being realistic and responsible. i had a hard enough time with 2 all by myself for the 4 years i was alone, let alone thinking of trying to do it with 3, it would have been almost impossible.

God knows why we make the decisions we make. He knows the plans He has for us, and He uses the decisions we make, whether they be good decisions or massive screw ups to His Glory.

do NOT look down on someone for the decisions they make, for what is right for THEIR family.

 

[cerette]

I wish there were more Bible quotes in this thread to show that/why birth control is allowed. So far I've mostly seen personal opinions based on one's own life experiences.

Somewhere in this discussion someone said to bach90 that it's easy for him to say x,y,z and to come back later on when he's been married for 30 years. I really don't agree with that comment--Bach is only trying to say something he believes he sees in the Bible. That is really the attitude all of us should have, we should base our opinion first and foremost on the Bible and not on what we have been through in life. As long as Bach uses the Bible as ground for his opinion it won't change even 30 years later when he's an exhausted poor Dad with 8 kids....

 

[alexnbethmom]

*I* said that, cerette - did you read what i posted, the post above yours? yes, we should absolutely use the bible as our base for everything. the thing is, that life throws curve balls, and sometimes we have to make decisions that others might not necessarily make.

if you were in the situation i was in, would you have gone ahead and just kept having kids???

 

[bach90]

No one is talking about "mingling" them together.

When we speak about our faith, we don't pound people with just the law. The Baptists do that well enough

We balance the message with an the Gospel.

GOOD EXAMPLE:
We are sinner (the Law), Christ died for those sins (the Gospel).

BAD EXAMPLE:
Those who even lust in their minds sin. Do not even look at women whose breasts are virtually hanging out. Love your wife. (all Law, no Gospel)

I fail to see how that bad example is a bad example. It's a horrible example if you wanted to preach the Gospel, it's a terrific example if you wanted to preach the law. In fact it's almost verbatim what Jesus said when teaching on Lust in the Sermon on the Mount.

Simply stating you are a sinner, while a true statement, is not full preaching of the law.

You are a sinner, you've failed to keep God's commands. You are a murderer at heart, an adulterer in sight, a theft by hands, and a liar by mouth. Repent! God will demand justice and there is nothing you can do which will satisfy it. By your own merits you will fail, but thanks be to God through his son Jesus who has covered you with his innocence in Baptism, absolved you of your sins and feeds you with his own body and blood.

In that example, the full strength of the law is preached (OK, not preached since the laity don't preach) and the full consolation of the Gospel is announced. Never are the two mixed. The law damns, condemns, and punishes, if it doesn't, it's not being explained fully enough. The Gospel promises and consoles, if you walk away wondering if you might end up in hell it wasn't sweet enough.

I wish there were more Bible quotes in this thread to show that/why birth control is allowed. So far I've mostly seen personal opinions based on one's own life experiences.

Somewhere in this discussion someone said to bach90 that it's easy for him to say x,y,z and to come back later on when he's been married for 30 years. I really don't agree with that comment--Bach is only trying to say something he believes he sees in the Bible. That is really the attitude all of us should have, we should base our opinion first and foremost on the Bible and not on what we have been through in life. As long as Bach uses the Bible as ground for his opinion it won't change even 30 years later when he's an exhausted poor Dad with 8 kids....

I conceded the point that I am not coming at this with a personal life experience. However, I know of couples with 8 children that are well off, and couples with 1 child that are well off. There are couples with 7+ children that are poor and there are poor couples with no children. I don't think there is causation between the number of children a family has and their income level. At best, there is correlation. If it's God's will that I have 8 children, then fine, I'm not going to try and throw any obstacles in his way. I simply don't see an argument from Scripture that allows birth control, and I see several places with an unfriendly attitude towards it, and several clear instances of Church theologians from Justin Martyr to Luther that speak forcefully against it. Once again, as usual, the Anglicans seemed to have been the ones that messed things up.

 

[cerette]

*I* said that, cerette - did you read what i read, the post above yours? yes, we should absolutely use the bible as our base for everything. the thing is, that life throws curve balls, and sometimes we have to make decisions that others might not necessarily make.

if you were in the situation i was in, would you have gone ahead and just kept having kids???

I don't know what I would have done in that situation, sounds like a very hard one. I just know that I used to be one of those who chose not to have kids 'yet' as I "knew" the timing was bad and money was tight. Then when the timing seemed 'right' and I "knew" I could afford to have kids, they didn't come that easily. It was a whole lot of heartache, crying, sadness and prayer before I was blessed with the one child I now have. (It took almost two years of trying like crazy and the same week I had given up the idea of ever having any biological kids I learnt that I was pregnant.) If I could turn back time I would have started trying to have kids on my wedding night!!!

 

[alexnbethmom]

I don't know what I would have done in that situation, sounds like a very hard one. I just know that I used to be one of those who chose not to have kids 'yet' as I "knew" the timing was bad and money was tight. Then when the timing seemed 'right' and I "knew" I could afford to have kids, they didn't come that easily. It was a whole lot of heartache, crying, sadness and prayer before I was blessed with the one child I now have. (It took almost two years of trying like crazy and the same week I had given up the idea of ever having any biological kids I learnt that I was pregnant.) If I could turn back time I would have started trying to have kids on my wedding night!!!

ok - then - see, nobody should look down on anybody for the decisions they make. you chose to wait because timing was bad, and then it was hard to get pregnant. so it's almost like you feel guilty about that. don't feel guilty about that. there's a reason for everything.

 

[bach90]

I will say that my husband also mentioned, although he treads carefully when counseling on the matter. Like I mentioned above there really is no perfect time to bring a child into the world.

Gottes zeit ist die allebester zeit.

 

[cerette]

ok - then - see, nobody should look down on anybody for the decisions they make. you chose to wait because timing was bad, and then it was hard to get pregnant. so it's almost like you feel guilty about that. don't feel guilty about that. there's a reason for everything.

I'm not sure if how I feel is guilt, it's more like regret. I wish I had known then what I know now. I also learnt the hard way that God has given us a very short time each month when we might get pregnant, so there is a "natural birth control" already in place. I am just really confused and struggling with this question. I do not know if birth control is a sin or if it's OK. I would love to know. I don't look down on others and try not to judge them even in my heart, I am just seeking an answer because I would like to know. I guess it doesn't really matter in my situation though, as I have left it all in God's hands and am still hoping for more kids. But we will see what happens. As for now I keep thanking God for the little one I have. (If anyone wonders why I don't adopt--I wouldn't mind, but it's mega expensive and we don't have that kind of money.)

 

[alexnbethmom]

and that's why a lot of people don't keep having kids - it's mega expensive and they don't have that kind of money.

i understand the struggle, and i understand the guilt, or regret, and even the grief or sadness. i had to cope with all those things too, after we made the decision not to have any more.

we all make decisions for the good of our families.

 

[Redhead11]

Bach,
No one likes a person who is all Law. As Pastor Bender says, "That is why we have the Gospel."
The man who speaks all Law will fail in life.
The Pastor who speaks all Law will fail as a Minister.

Everyone, ever man, woman and Pastor should speak and preach a balance of law and gospel.

The law to show the sin, the gospel to give them hope.

When the law is all we speak, we pound people down. Without the Gospel, a man would commit suicide.

This is why every Christian Bible has the Old Testament (the law) WITH the New Testament (the Gospel).

 

[cerette]

Redhead11,
Both law and gospel is found in both the Old and the New Testament.

 

[Redhead11]

Redhead11,
Both law and gospel is found in both the Old and the New Testament.

I was speaking in general terms, I should have clarified.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

The bible does not specifically state "don't use birth control". But it speaks frequently of children in a positive light, and it speaks of the three main purposes of marriage, with children being one of them. It can be inferred that hindering one aspect of marriage could be a sin...but truly I think that's where motive comes into play.

It might sound a little off but its sorta the same with euthanasia. The question there is are we prolonging death or preserving life. Here the question could be are we hindering God's blessing or are we working towards it.

 

[alexnbethmom]

uh huh - and did you read about WHY my late husband and i made the decision we made? or do these kinds of dilemmas just not matter at all?