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Contraception question

C

Cardinal John H. Newman

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So, in my Bioethics class we are talking about Contraception today, tomorrow and the day after. I raised the point that as a Catholic, I am opposed to contraception. I explained why we do not accept contraception, and I gave Natural Family Planning as a form of "natural birth control," that would be acceptable. A fellow student said that they could accept the non-use of condoms, and barrier methods, but asked why the pill, which contains hormones and chemicals that were already in the body was not considered a "natural" form of birth control.

As far as I can tell, I am the only Catholic in the class. There are several protestants and an atheist, as well as one guy who is "spiritual but not religious". Any direction towards church documents or the Fathers, as well as any thoughts or comments any of you might have, would be appreciated. (I haven't checked out Theology of the Body yet, but I'm going to.)

hahaha. ^_^:thumbsup: I have an english class in which I've chosen to do my paper on "the rights of healthcare professionals to object to serving contraceptives and euthanasia pills." I just found out the teacher, a middle-aged lady, is a former catholic. She personally supports conscientious objection, but has been left in shock at my adamant opposition to the Pill. Same with many others in the class who were not happy with my position. There was a huge class discussion to the topic. I was kinda berated by all, except one, of the middle-aged and elderly people in the class. Afterwards though, I was congratulated by the one exception and all the younger evangelicals in the class as well as was congratulated by the rest of my generation in the class that claim to use the pill and said they had never thought of it that way before.
Keep it up to you too!

Even though I'm in college, I'm also still in highschool and I would estimate that 1/3 peers are against contraception and another 1/3 are open to a debate on contraception especially since I caused a huge rucus last year debating the most liberal teacher in the whole school for the whole period (then again, she mocked the Pope which is what set me off).

Now for the science portion... Point being, anything that prohibits or inhibits life is contrary to the Faith.
The Pill actually kills the baby embryo by preventing it from attaching to the uterus in the female. When an embryo attaches to the uterus, it does so to be fed, because it is hungry, scientifically speaking anyways; the Pill blocks the hungry (living) embryo from attaching, therefore murdering it...
:: DitchThePill.org :: Birth Control Pills are Dangerous Drugs
LifeNews.com - The Pro-Life News Source
LifeSiteNews.com - Your Life, Family and Culture Outpost
Natural Family Planning, NFP
Birth Control
Contraception and Sterilization
Abortion
Why Contraception Is Wrong
Contraception: Why Not?
Pill inventor slams ... pill - CathNews

Enjoy! Hope this helps!
Cardinal Newman:crossrc::cool::crossrc:
 
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MKJ

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No... not true.

if you use NFP as birth control you still are sinning because the sin is two fold, means we use and the intention we have.

if it's because we are anti baby, not open to life- we sin, no matter of we use an acceptable means.

if you are not Catholic, it's best not to teach Catholic morality to others.

I think you missed my point. When people use the phrase "birth control" they can mean a lot of different things. In most cases, Catholics discussing contraception use it in a fairly specific way. On the other hand, the general population - and I would say a group of university students - will often use it in a much more broad and general way. And it isn't that they are necessarily wrong in the way they are using it.

Which is why they get confused when Catholics say NFP is ok and condoms or the pill are not. From their perspective, both are about an attempt to prevent pregnancy when it is not desirable for some reason. Most would even consider abstinence, because of some serious issue, a form of "birth control"

As a result in a discussion like the OP had in his class, people get confused. Either the term "birth control" needs to be clarified as to what it does mean or does not mean in a Catholic context, or it could be avoided entirely.
 
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benedictaoo

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I'm pretty sure that "Birth Control" in all walks of life means to control the birth of children. It means to have sex with out the result, which is children.

That is the birth control mentality and to Catholics, that mentality is sinful, to have sex with out the possibility of children. which is why we don't use/practice, birth control, at all.

We do not practice birth control since it's mentality is wrong. If we have to, we practice natural family planning.
 
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MKJ

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I'm pretty sure that "Birth Control" in all walks of life means to control the birth of children. It means to have sex with out the result, which is children.

That is the birth control mentality and to Catholics, that mentality is sinful, to have sex with out the possibility of children. which is why we don't use/practice, birth control, at all.

We do not practice birth control since it's mentality is wrong. If we have to, we practice natural family planning.


This sort of explanation is incomprehensible to most though, and I don't think it really even gets at the real reasons the CC doesn't allow ABC.

The kids in the OPs class were having trouble with the idea that "birth control" is wrong but NFP is ok - they thought that also was "birth control". It seems likely to me that is because they consider any attempt to control conception "birth control" whether it involves continuing sexual relations or not. I thought the OP should either clarify the use of the term birth control or simply not use the term at all; it isn't required to understand the argument and tends to confuse people.

To the average Joe, using NFP to space or prevent conception is birth control - it is putting limits on when conception is likely to happen. It is, as you said, the control of the birth of children. But most would not say that birth control necessarily meant continuing to have sex. Usually that is the fact, but to most it isn't part of the definition, which is why statements that NFP is not birth control seem ridiculous to many. (This can also be undermined, not ratinally really but in people's minds, because many NFP advocates are insistent that NFP is as effective as ABC and that there is plenty of opportunity still to have sex while using it. So it seems still as if the NFP advocates are trying to have their cake and eat it too.)

Really, as you mentioned, there are two different questions - being allowed to "plan" one's family at all; and how one is allowed to do so.

The "birth control mentality" you talk about is part of the first question, and applies to any method used. The psychologically damaging effects are also part of this question. Most people can actually understand this argument pretty easily, even if they don't agree.

It's the second question, the method of controlling conception, that most really have trouble with. If the reasons for controlling the family are acceptable, they think, what difference does it make how it is prevented? They don't see that the intent, which is seen as acceptable according to the first question, would be any different with ABC. And of course that is possible - one might have a good reason to control conception and use ABC, and a bad one and use NFP, or a bad one and just refrain from sex entirely. The argument against ABC really has little to do with intent, or a "birth control mentality". (I'll make a caveat - doing something intrinsically disordered is more likely to lead to disordered reasoning or other effects even if the initial reasoning was good - but bringing that into it before the person understands why the act itself is disordered is putting the cart before the horse.)

There are, I think, good ways of explaining this, but it requires getting beyond language issues.
 
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2WhomShallWeGo

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I think the word birth-control ought to be dropped from the discussion except to say that we (Catholics) see no point in getting married to have kids and then trying not to have them. So should abortion for the most part because the pill is wrong even if a particular pill is not meant to be an abortificatiant. So should the word natural, Because people understand this to mean coming from a plant or some living thing, which is not relevant.

We should discuss the the idea of marriage which is faithful, unitive-procreation. The fact is if you seperate essential characteristics of a definition from the definition then you no longer have the same thing.

Marriage MUST be PROCREATIVE AND FAITHFUL if it is not it is not marriage. It would not be okay to have an affair just for one day, Nor is it okay to close ones self to procreation even for one day.

IF NFP is to be used in a way that is not sinful it must be to have children. I know that sounds weird let me clarify further. It is one thing to encourage the body via NFP to have fewer pregnancies. It is another thing to use NFP to STOP having pregnancies EVEN if just for a time. The first is legit the second is not.

Contraceptives are not used to slow the body down they have no ability to work this way. They do have the ability to prevent pregnancy entirely for a period of time. and just as it would be wrong to abandon ones wife for a time, so it is wrong to abandon the idea of children for a time.

Hope that helped

JMJ
 
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dusky_tresses

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I'm going to pose a question that's going to seem really obnoxious.

If you are using NFP as "natural family planning"--- why don't most Catholics have 5+ children? Why do I keep meeting Catholics who have no children, or less than 3 children? I realize that it also might mean these people are using ABC-- but I have seen people here mention that they practice NFP and only have 3 kids. And why is the population of Italy at a negative growth, when the Vatican is RIGHT THERE?

So--- if you aren't having tons of babies like the Duggars-- how is NFP ANY DIFFERENT than birth control, or preventing pregnancies and spacing births? From what I've read, I don't see any difference except that it's natural-based.

I know intentions also need to get factored here- but WHO determines whether intentions are sin or not sin? After all, I could say that I need to practice NFP because we have no health insurance, husband doesn't have a job, I'm still in college, I have health problems that need to get resolved, we don't have a lot of money, etc.--- but I think that there is always going to be something to pick with the intentions part. Anyone could come back and say that children really aren't that expensive (yes, I HAVE seen that written on OBOB), you shouldn't get married if you weren't ready to have children (also seen that on OBOB), etc.

I did warn everyone that this might be obnoxious...
 
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Rhamiel

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I'm going to pose a question that's going to seem really obnoxious.

If you are using NFP as "natural family planning"--- why don't most Catholics have 5+ children? Why do I keep meeting Catholics who have no children, or less than 3 children? I realize that it also might mean these people are using ABC-- but I have seen people here mention that they practice NFP and only have 3 kids. And why is the population of Italy at a negative growth, when the Vatican is RIGHT THERE?

So--- if you aren't having tons of babies like the Duggars-- how is NFP ANY DIFFERENT than birth control, or preventing pregnancies and spacing births? From what I've read, I don't see any difference except that it's natural-based.

I know intentions also need to get factored here- but WHO determines whether intentions are sin or not sin? After all, I could say that I need to practice NFP because we have no health insurance, husband doesn't have a job, I'm still in college, I have health problems that need to get resolved, we don't have a lot of money, etc.--- but I think that there is always going to be something to pick with the intentions part. Anyone could come back and say that children really aren't that expensive (yes, I HAVE seen that written on OBOB), you shouldn't get married if you weren't ready to have children (also seen that on OBOB), etc.

I did warn everyone that this might be obnoxious...

good questions
 
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CreedIsChrist

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Any direction towards church documents or the Fathers, as well as any thoughts or comments any of you might have, would be appreciated. (I haven't checked out Theology of the Body yet, but I'm going to.)


Here are some Church Fathers

Apostolic Tradition


The biblical teaching that birth control is wrong is found even more explicitly among the Church Fathers, who recognized the biblical and natural law principles underlying the condemnation.

In A.D. 195, Clement of Alexandria wrote, "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted" (The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2).

Hippolytus of Rome wrote in 255 that "on account of their prominent ancestry and great property, the so-called faithful [certain Christian women who had affairs with male servants] want no children from slaves or lowborn commoners, [so] they use drugs of sterility or bind themselves tightly in order to expel a fetus which has already been engendered" (Refutation of All Heresies 9:12).

Around 307 Lactantius explained that some "complain of the scantiness of their means, and allege that they have not enough for bringing up more children, as though, in truth, their means were in [their] power . . . or God did not daily make the rich poor and the poor rich. Wherefore, if any one on any account of poverty shall be unable to bring up children, it is better to abstain from relations with his wife" (Divine Institutes 6:20).

The First Council of Nicaea, the first ecumenical council and the one that defined Christ’s divinity, declared in 325, "If anyone in sound health has castrated himself, it behooves that such a one, if enrolled among the clergy, should cease [from his ministry], and that from henceforth no such person should be promoted. But, as it is evident that this is said of those who willfully do the thing and presume to castrate themselves, so if any have been made eunuchs by barbarians, or by their masters, and should otherwise be found worthy, such men this canon admits to the clergy" (Canon 1).

Augustine wrote in 419, "I am supposing, then, although you are not lying [with your wife] for the sake of procreating offspring, you are not for the sake of lust obstructing their procreation by an evil prayer or an evil deed. Those who do this, although they are called husband and wife, are not; nor do they retain any reality of marriage, but with a respectable name cover a shame. Sometimes this lustful cruelty, or cruel lust, comes to this, that they even procure poisons of sterility [oral contraceptives]" (Marriage and Concupiscence 1:15:17).

The apostolic tradition’s condemnation of contraception is so great that it was followed by Protestants until 1930 and was upheld by all key Protestant Reformers. Martin Luther said, "[T]he exceedingly foul deed of Onan, the basest of wretches . . . is a most disgraceful sin. It is far more atrocious than incest and adultery. We call it unchastity, yes, a sodomitic sin. For Onan goes in to her; that is, he lies with her and copulates, and when it comes to the point of insemination, spills the sperm, lest the woman conceive. Surely at such a time the order of nature established by God in procreation should be followed. Accordingly, it was a most disgraceful crime. . . . Consequently, he deserved to be killed by God. He committed an evil deed. Therefore, God punished him."

John Calvin said, "The voluntary spilling of sperm outside of intercourse between man and woman is a monstrous thing. Deliberately to withdraw from coitus in order that sperm may fall on the ground is doubly monstrous. For this is to extinguish the hope of the race and to kill before he is born the hoped-for offspring."

John Wesley warned, "Those sins that dishonor the body are very displeasing to God, and the evidence of vile affections. Observe, the thing which he [Onan] did displeased the Lord—and it is to be feared; thousands, especially of single persons, by this very thing, still displease the Lord, and destroy their own souls." (These passages are quoted in Charles D. Provan, The Bible and Birth Control, which contains many quotes by historic Protestant figures who recognize contraception’s evils.)

The Letter of Barnabas


"Moreover, he [Moses] has rightly detested the weasel [Lev. 11:29]. For he means, ‘Thou shall not be like to those whom we hear of as committing wickedness with the mouth with the body through uncleanness [orally consummated sex]; nor shall thou be joined to those impure women who commit iniquity with the mouth with the body through uncleanness’" (Letter of Barnabas 10:8 [A.D. 74]).

Clement of Alexandria


"Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted" (The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2 [A.D. 191]).

"To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature" (ibid., 2:10:95:3).

Hippolytus


"[Christian women with male concubines], on account of their prominent ancestry and great property, the so-called faithful want no children from slaves or lowborn commoners, [so] they use drugs of sterility or bind themselves tightly in order to expel a fetus which has already been engendered" (Refutation of All Heresies 9:12 [A.D. 225]).

Lactantius


"[Some] complain of the scantiness of their means, and allege that they have not enough for bringing up more children, as though, in truth, their means were in [their] power . . . or God did not daily make the rich poor and the poor rich. Wherefore, if any one on any account of poverty shall be unable to bring up children, it is better to abstain from relations with his wife" (Divine Institutes 6:20 [A.D. 307]).

"God gave us eyes not to see and desire pleasure, but to see acts to be performed for the needs of life; so too, the genital [’generating’] part of the body, as the name itself teaches, has been received by us for no other purpose than the generation of offspring" (ibid., 6:23:18).

Council of Nicaea I


"f anyone in sound health has castrated himself, it behooves that such a one, if enrolled among the clergy, should cease [from his ministry], and that from henceforth no such person should be promoted. But, as it is evident that this is said of those who willfully do the thing and presume to castrate themselves, so if any have been made eunuchs by barbarians, or by their masters, and should otherwise be found worthy, such men this canon admits to the clergy" (Canon 1 [A.D. 325]).

Epiphanius of Salamis


"They [certain Egyptian heretics] exercise genital acts, yet prevent the conceiving of children. Not in order to produce offspring, but to satisfy lust, are they eager for corruption" (Medicine Chest Against Heresies 26:5:2 [A.D. 375]).

Augustine


"This proves that you [Manicheans] approve of having a wife, not for the procreation of children, but for the gratification of passion. In marriage, as the marriage law declares, the man and woman come together for the procreation of children. Therefore, whoever makes the procreation of children a greater sin than copulation, forbids marriage and makes the woman not a wife but a mistress, who for some gifts presented to her is joined to the man to gratify his passion" (The Morals of the Manichees 18:65 [A.D. 388]).

"You [Manicheans] make your auditors adulterers of their wives when they take care lest the women with whom they copulate conceive. They take wives according to the laws of matrimony by tablets announcing that the marriage is contracted to procreate children; and then, fearing because of your law [against childbearing] . . . they copulate in a shameful union only to satisfy lust for their wives. They are unwilling to have children, on whose account alone marriages are made. How is it, then, that you are not those prohibiting marriage, as the apostle predicted of you so long ago [1 Tim. 4:1–4], when you try to take from marriage what marriage is? When this is taken away, husbands are shameful lovers, wives are harlots, bridal chambers are brothels, fathers-in-law are pimps" (Against Faustus 15:7 [A.D. 400]).

"For thus the eternal law, that is, the will of God creator of all creatures, taking counsel for the conservation of natural order, not to serve lust, but to see to the preservation of the race, permits the delight of mortal flesh to be released from the control of reason in copulation only to propagate progeny" (ibid., 22:30).

"For necessary sexual intercourse for begetting [children] is alone worthy of marriage. But that which goes beyond this necessity no longer follows reason but lust. And yet it pertains to the character of marriage . . . to yield it to the partner lest by fornication the other sin damnably [through adultery]. . . . [T]hey [must] not turn away from them the mercy of God . . . by changing the natural use into that which is against nature, which is more damnable when it is done in the case of husband or wife. For, whereas that natural use, when it pass beyond the compact of marriage, that is, beyond the necessity of begetting [children], is pardonable in the case of a wife, damnable in the case of a harlot; that which is against nature is execrable when done in the case of a harlot, but more execrable in the case of a wife. Of so great power is the ordinance of the Creator, and the order of creation, that . . . when the man shall wish to use a body part of the wife not allowed for this purpose [orally or anally consummated sex], the wife is more shameful, if she suffer it to take place in her own case, than if in the case of another woman" (The Good of Marriage 11–12 [A.D. 401]).

...

"I am supposing, then, although you are not lying [with your wife] for the sake of procreating offspring, you are not for the sake of lust obstructing their procreation by an evil prayer or an evil deed. Those who do this, although they are called husband and wife, are not; nor do they retain any reality of marriage, but with a respectable name cover a shame. Sometimes this lustful cruelty, or cruel lust, comes to this, that they even procure poisons of sterility. . . . Assuredly if both husband and wife are like this, they are not married, and if they were like this from the beginning they come together not joined in matrimony but in seduction. If both are not like this, I dare to say that either the wife is in a fashion the harlot of her husband or he is an adulterer with his own wife" (Marriage and Concupiscence 1:15:17 [A.D. 419]).

John Chrysostom


"Why do you sow where the field is eager to destroy the fruit, where there are medicines of sterility [oral contraceptives], where there is murder before birth? You do not even let a harlot remain only a harlot, but you make her a murderess as well. . . . Indeed, it is something worse than murder, and I do not know what to call it; for she does not kill what is formed but prevents its formation. What then? Do you condemn the gift of God and fight with his [natural] laws? . . . Yet such turpitude . . . the matter still seems indifferent to many men—even to many men having wives. In this indifference of the married men there is greater evil filth; for then poisons are prepared, not against the womb of a prostitute, but against your injured wife. Against her are these innumerable tricks" (Homilies on Romans 24 [A.D. 391]).

"n truth, all men know that they who are under the power of this disease [the sin of covetousness] are wearied even of their father’s old age [wishing him to die so they can inherit]; and that which is sweet, and universally desirable, the having of children, they esteem grievous and unwelcome. Many at least with this view have even paid money to be childless, and have mutilated nature, not only killing the newborn, but even acting to prevent their beginning to live" (Homilies on Matthew 28:5 [A.D. 391]).

"[T]he man who has mutilated himself, in fact, is subject even to a curse, as Paul says, ‘I would that they who trouble you would cut the whole thing off’ [Gal. 5:12]. And very reasonably, for such a person is venturing on the deeds of murderers, and giving occasion to them that slander God’s creation, and opens the mouths of the Manicheans, and is guilty of the same unlawful acts as they that mutilate themselves among the Greeks. For to cut off our members has been from the beginning a work of demonical agency, and satanic device, that they may bring up a bad report upon the works of God, that they may mar this living creature, that imputing all not to the choice, but to the nature of our members, the more part of them may sin in security as being irresponsible, and doubly harm this living creature, both by mutilating the members and by impeding the forwardness of the free choice in behalf of good deeds" (ibid., 62:3).

"Observe how bitterly he [Paul] speaks against their deceivers . . . ‘I would that they which trouble you would cut the whole thing off’ [Gal. 5:12]. . . . On this account he curses them, and his meaning is as follows: ‘For them I have no concern, "A man that is heretical after the first and second admonition refuse" [Titus 3:10]. If they will, let them not only be circumcised but mutilated.’ Where then are those who dare to mutilate themselves, seeing that they draw down the apostolic curse, and accuse the workmanship of God, and take part with the Manichees?" (Commentary on Galatians 5:12 [A.D. 395]).

Jerome


"But I wonder why he [the heretic Jovinianus] set Judah and Tamar before us for an example, unless perchance even harlots give him pleasure; or Onan, who was slain because he grudged his brother seed. Does he imagine that we approve of any sexual intercourse except for the procreation of children?" (Against Jovinian 1:19 [A.D. 393]).

"You may see a number of women who are widows before they are wives. Others, indeed, will drink sterility and murder a man not yet born, [and some commit abortion]" (Letters 22:13 [A.D. 396]).

Caesarius of Arles


"Who is he who cannot warn that no woman may take a potion so that she is unable to conceive or condemns in herself the nature which God willed to be fecund? As often as she could have conceived or given birth, of that many homicides she will be held guilty, and, unless she undergoes suitable penance, she will be damned by eternal death in hell. If a woman does not wish to have children, let her enter into a religious agreement with her husband; for chastity is the sole sterility of a Christian woman" (Sermons 1:12 [A.D. 522]).
 
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benedictaoo

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I'm going to pose a question that's going to seem really obnoxious.

If you are using NFP as "natural family planning"--- why don't most Catholics have 5+ children? Why do I keep meeting Catholics who have no children, or less than 3 children? I realize that it also might mean these people are using ABC-- but I have seen people here mention that they practice NFP and only have 3 kids. And why is the population of Italy at a negative growth, when the Vatican is RIGHT THERE?

So--- if you aren't having tons of babies like the Duggars-- how is NFP ANY DIFFERENT than birth control, or preventing pregnancies and spacing births? From what I've read, I don't see any difference except that it's natural-based.

I know intentions also need to get factored here- but WHO determines whether intentions are sin or not sin? After all, I could say that I need to practice NFP because we have no health insurance, husband doesn't have a job, I'm still in college, I have health problems that need to get resolved, we don't have a lot of money, etc.--- but I think that there is always going to be something to pick with the intentions part. Anyone could come back and say that children really aren't that expensive (yes, I HAVE seen that written on OBOB), you shouldn't get married if you weren't ready to have children (also seen that on OBOB), etc.

I did warn everyone that this might be obnoxious...

First of all I have 6 kids... been using NFP for 15 + years.

Next, you, your spouse, priest, God discerns. Grave reasons for one couple may not fly as being grave for another. It is a bit subjective. Point is, NFP allows the discernment on literally a day to day biases- the prayer, the being prudent but still also leaving it in God's hands.

ABC takes that out of His hands and you decided and it's for the long term. that is being closed to life.

NFP is open to life even if you try not to conceive. The fact that ppl are so afraid of it tell us, because it's still remains open to life.

Like I said, for NFPer's we plan and God laughs... that is how we can describe NFPer's. The point is faith and trust and belief that what we believe about providence is all true. We put out money where our mouth is, so to speak. - God won't give you want you can not handle. So we discern with each other, God but put it in His hands.

Now about Italy. Outside the Vatican, they are like the rest of Europe, becoming godless. They also have a large incline of folks getting heavily involved in the occult.

Shrug.. what you gonna to do. This is the world in which we live, closed to life. I know at one point the government there was trying to pay ppl to have more kids.

So the world must be careful here with all this anti life agenda, be careful of what they asked for because they just may get it. In Europe, Christians are contracepting their way out of existence. Soon Muslim will be dominate in Europe. Why? Because they do not use contraception or abortion.

I don't see the relevance of the Vatican being right there. No one is going to listen to the Vatican no matter where they are... this is the world in which we live.

This is more or less the main reason why I'm so upset with the Church and the imbecile way they handle these molestation crimes each time they pop up... they have lost so much credibility, it's not even funny... so who is going to save us at this point?

Right now, the Church needs to heal themselves. preach a little gospel of life to themselves.
 
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benedictaoo

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I think the word birth-control ought to be dropped from the discussion except to say that we (Catholics) see no point in getting married to have kids and then trying not to have them. So should abortion for the most part because the pill is wrong even if a particular pill is not meant to be an abortificatiant. So should the word natural, Because people understand this to mean coming from a plant or some living thing, which is not relevant.

We should discuss the the idea of marriage which is faithful, unitive-procreation. The fact is if you seperate essential characteristics of a definition from the definition then you no longer have the same thing.

Marriage MUST be PROCREATIVE AND FAITHFUL if it is not it is not marriage. It would not be okay to have an affair just for one day, Nor is it okay to close ones self to procreation even for one day.

IF NFP is to be used in a way that is not sinful it must be to have children. I know that sounds weird let me clarify further. It is one thing to encourage the body via NFP to have fewer pregnancies. It is another thing to use NFP to STOP having pregnancies EVEN if just for a time. The first is legit the second is not.

Contraceptives are not used to slow the body down they have no ability to work this way. They do have the ability to prevent pregnancy entirely for a period of time. and just as it would be wrong to abandon ones wife for a time, so it is wrong to abandon the idea of children for a time.

Hope that helped

JMJ

I get what you are saying but many annulments are granted to folks who have been married 25 years and have 4 kids...

People must understand that the "Catholic" way of life with having many kids, etc. only works if both parties are A) sane and B) are on board with the Catholic teaching.

If you are not dealing with two emotionally healthy, balanced ppl who are truly committed to one another, and the Church's teaching- it's not going to work.

To many times, couple want to change the rules of the game on each other down the line.

So my point is, we really can't judge. We can't say those who don't have umpteen kids aren't really married either...
 
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MKJ

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IF NFP is to be used in a way that is not sinful it must be to have children. I know that sounds weird let me clarify further. It is one thing to encourage the body via NFP to have fewer pregnancies. It is another thing to use NFP to STOP having pregnancies EVEN if just for a time. The first is legit the second is not.

Contraceptives are not used to slow the body down they have no ability to work this way. They do have the ability to prevent pregnancy entirely for a period of time. and just as it would be wrong to abandon ones wife for a time, so it is wrong to abandon the idea of children for a time.

Hope that helped
JMJ

How is slowing down pregnancies different than deciding not to have children for a time? In any case, I think the CC says that it can be perfectly legitimate to avoid pregnancy for a time or possibly even permanently, even if you make it 100% effective by using total abstinence.
 
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dusky_tresses

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What if you are Catholic and decide to limit the number of children you have...is that not being "Catholic" enough or not living the "Catholic life"?

How does one get the impression from what St. Paul said that refraining from sexual activity is okay? I go over to the marriagebed at times and they teach the exact opposite, but also teach that birth control is okay.
 
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PilgrimToChrist

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I'm going to pose a question that's going to seem really obnoxious.

If you are using NFP as "natural family planning"--- why don't most Catholics have 5+ children? Why do I keep meeting Catholics who have no children, or less than 3 children? I realize that it also might mean these people are using ABC-- but I have seen people here mention that they practice NFP and only have 3 kids. And why is the population of Italy at a negative growth, when the Vatican is RIGHT THERE?

Well, there are several issues. Not all married people have been married long enough to have half a dozen kids. Other people have difficulty conceiving. And yes, other people simply ignore what the Church teaches on this issue (and others) and do whatever they want... it's called "sin" and it's always been popular...

Several families at my church have more than 6 kids. One just had their 9th and another has 10. Many people homeschool too.

I know intentions also need to get factored here- but WHO determines whether intentions are sin or not sin?

Ultimately, God, of course. A good confessor / spiritual director is helpful.

After all, I could say that I need to practice NFP because we have no health insurance, husband doesn't have a job, I'm still in college, I have health problems that need to get resolved, we don't have a lot of money, etc.--- but I think that there is always going to be something to pick with the intentions part. Anyone could come back and say that children really aren't that expensive (yes, I HAVE seen that written on OBOB), you shouldn't get married if you weren't ready to have children (also seen that on OBOB), etc.

There could always be an excuse. For example, I was trying to convince my friend to let his wife (of 1 year) go off of birth control. She wanted to but he was freaked out about having kids without a career and with the economy and whatnot. I said if the kid is going to live 80 years, he'll probably see periods where the economy is bad. I mean, if the kid is 5 and we go into a depression, what are you going to do, kill the kid? Of course not. Last we talked about it, they were using an NFP method but she has not gotten pregnant yet (her mom had trouble conceiving her, so it's not unexpected).

You can have one kid (or none!) and spend a fortune. You can have a dozen and live cheaply, it's about lifestyle choices.
 
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PilgrimToChrist

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Opposition to contraception is not just a "Catholic thing". The first denomination to approve of birth control in the United States was the Episcopal Church.

1930 Lambeth Conference said:
Where there is clearly felt moral obligation to limit or avoid parenthood, the method must be decided on Christian principles. The primary and obvious method is complete abstinence from intercourse (as far as may be necessary) in a life of discipline and self-control lived in the power of the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless in those cases where there is such a clearly felt moral obligation to limit or avoid parenthood, and where there is a morally sound reason for avoiding complete abstinence, the Conference agrees that other methods may be used, provided that this is done in the light of the same Christian principles. The Conference records its strong condemnation of the use of any methods of conception control from motives of selfishness, luxury, or mere convenience.

It sounds reasoned and rational but this was the first major step towards the total collapse of any sense of Christian morality in the Episcopal Church (at large). Other Protestant denominations followed suit, since they believe that everyone should determine the faith for themselves and what's right and wrong, but the Catholics and Orthodox remained faithful to what has been taught since the beginning (and shown dramatically in the case of Onan).

The poet T.S. Eliot wrote in response to that Lambeth Conference:
T.S. Eliot said:
The World is trying the experiment of attempting to form a civilized but non-Christian mentality. The experiment will fail; but we must be very patient in awaiting its collapse; meanwhile redeeming the time: so that the Faith may be preserved alive through the dark ages before us; to renew and rebuild civilization, and save the World from suicide.

It's just contraceptive culture which has made this go from norm to exception in less than a century.
 
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MKJ

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Opposition to contraception is not just a "Catholic thing". The first denomination to approve of birth control in the United States was the Episcopal Church.



It sounds reasoned and rational but this was the first major step towards the total collapse of any sense of Christian morality in the Episcopal Church (at large). Other Protestant denominations followed suit, since they believe that everyone should determine the faith for themselves and what's right and wrong, but the Catholics and Orthodox remained faithful to what has been taught since the beginning (and shown dramatically in the case of Onan).

The poet T.S. Eliot wrote in response to that Lambeth Conference:


It's just contraceptive culture which has made this go from norm to exception in less than a century.

I tend to agree with you, but I would point out that it isn't entirely accurate to say that the EO have maintained unity with the CC on this issue. Many have a view similar to the one described by Lambeth which you quoted, and in some North American parishes it is interpreted somewhat liberally. What is different though is that they are expected to discuss such matters with their spiritual advisers, and actually take that authority seriously.
 
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MKJ

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What if you are Catholic and decide to limit the number of children you have...is that not being "Catholic" enough or not living the "Catholic life"?

How does one get the impression from what St. Paul said that refraining from sexual activity is okay? I go over to the marriagebed at times and they teach the exact opposite, but also teach that birth control is okay.


Paul warns about the problems with refraining, especially without the agreement of one's spouse.

But remember that he did so in a place and time when there was no reliable ABC or NFP. Yet there were still circumstances where pregnancy would have been ill-advised, or there were other reasons to avoid sexual activity. Ill health, famine, long absences due to travel, and so on.

Paul wasn't suggesting it was wrong to avoid pregnancy through abstinence if the wife suffered from disease, or that a husband who was a sailor could not work, or that in the midst of a serious famine it might not be wise to abstain for a time.

It's only now, when in our society people controlling their fertility for the most trivial of reasons and ABC is taken for granted, that anyone could say with a straight face "Paul says abstinence is not allowed". You have to have no sense of history or context to argue that.

And historically we can see in the Church that there is a tradition of some married people, once they had ceased child-bearing, willingly embracing abstinence - sometimes even entering monastic life. Not a slam dunk argument, but it suggests that on this issue Paul was not understood in the same way in the past.
 
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benedictaoo

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What if you are Catholic and decide to limit the number of children you have...is that not being "Catholic" enough or not living the "Catholic life"?

First, lets drop the "not Catholic enough" stuff... if you are baptized Catholic, then you are a Catholic. It's like being just a little pregnant.

It's a matter of is what you are doing against God's will or not?

and I don't know. It is subjective to you and your spouse and situation.

The best rule of thumb I can give you is, is this a choice you have to make not to have them against your free will? Or do you just not want anymore children and are freely choosing not to have them?

For instance, I have to willfully choose not to have any more... even though, I'll be honest- I don't particularly want anymore but I would not be against it... I would be open to it, if I could be. Does that make sense?

It's not so much about what the deal is... it's the mentality. and it is certainly not a numbers game either. whether it's one or 10. it's the mentality, are you open to life even if you can't have anymore for reasons that are beyond your control?

Or are have you just made up your mind, you do not want them so you will close yourself off to it?





How does one get the impression from what St. Paul said that refraining from sexual activity is okay? I go over to the marriagebed at times and they teach the exact opposite, but also teach that birth control is okay.

He said you are not to refuse one another accept for a time when you go off to fast and pray.
 
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dusky_tresses

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Or are have you just made up your mind, you do not want them so you will close yourself off to it?

First of all, I haven't even been married for 2 years yet, so no I don't have children, And secondly, I have no closed off my mind of EVER having children, but right now having a child would not be a smart or advisable decision right now.

I could list off all the things that are going on right now, or have gone on since I've been married, but I think I've already kind of done that...and it didn't seem to matter.

NFP's still birth control the way I see it.
 
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