Context determines timing in Luke 21:32

Choose Wisely · Dec 4, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Joh 5:27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
Joh 5:29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

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Your verses are out of context as usual. Your verses are about the dead when we are talking about the living.
Rev 3
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

BABerean2 · Dec 4, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
Your verses are out of context as usual. Your verses are about the dead when we are talking about the living.
Rev 3
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

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Choose Wisely · Dec 4, 2018

BABerean2 said:
2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

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Rev 3
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

BABerean2 · Dec 4, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Where are the members of the church of Philadelphia at the present time?

7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

They are now with Christ.

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DavidPT · Dec 4, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
Nice post. I agree with everything you said. You are exactly right, the tribulation and the Day of the Lord are completely separate events and most pretribbers do not get that. And yet, I believe in a pretribulation rapture.

Matt 24
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So what things come to pass? False Christs, wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, famines, pestilence, signs in the sun, moon and stars.

So we see that there are some that are told..........when you see these things come to pass. They are told to look up their redemption draws night.

And yet we see others that are told.........that you may be counted worthy to escape all theses things that will come to pass and stand before the son of man. This group escapes the hour of testing.

I'm in agreement except for there being a Pretrib rapture somewhere within this timeline.

DavidPT · Dec 4, 2018

The Times said:
My view on the thousand years is Satan is prevented from using the Beast and the False Prophet that was destroyed in 70AD

What makes you conclude the Beast and the False Prophet were destroyed in 70AD? There couldn't possibly be anyone who has been cast into the lake of fire already. You do take the casting of someone into the LOF literally, right?

That would also have to mean Revelation 19:21 was fulfilled at the time as well. Yet Revelation 19:21 seems to be connected to the Gog battle where you place that in the end of the age. I don't see how Revelation 19:20 can be meaning 70 AD, and Revelation 19:21 be meaning thousands of years later. Not that you are concluding that, but if Revelation 19:21 is indeed connected to the Gog battle like a lot of us tend to conclude, where you place that battle at the end of the age, that would indicate a gap between verse 20 and 21 of at least 2000 years, per your position.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

The Times said:
and the Battle of Gog to before Christ's 2nd coming.

I at least agree with you here.

DavidPT · Dec 4, 2018

mkgal1 said:
The New Heaven and New Earth
by MS Cheo

Before I start on this section, allow me to share with you an amusing segment of an email I received from my good friend, Bill of Pinehurst, North Carolina shortly after New Year while I was writing this paper.

‘A short story about our grandson, 4 years old, Tyler. His mom kept telling him about the new year coming, and he wanted to stay up all night to see it. Well, he went to bed at 9 and the next morning came running into his mom's room and asked if the new year came in. She said it did, then he ran to the window to look out and said, "Well, it looks just like the old one...." Ah, from the mouths of babes....’

That interestingly brings out a point. When the New Heaven and New Earth appeared (or to appear in the future, according to our Futurist brothers), was anyone (or will anyone be) aware of its manifestation?

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Surprisingly, this verse is devoid of any cataclysmic events typical of the book of Revelation! I mean, if we are talking of the planet Earth being destroyed and a new planet being created in its place, one would have expected at least a few verses describing its catastrophic destruction and a glorious creation (as in Genesis 1). No, none whatsoever. It was as if it was a non-event, or as if the ‘New Heaven and New Earth’ has already existed! It is just like the old year giving way to a new year – nothing really obvious has changed!

It is true (from preterists’ viewpoint) that ‘heaven’ has been used in the Old Testament to depict the religious-political system (the government) and ‘earth’ as the social-religious system (the people), based on the Old Covenant’s Laws and Commandments. And so, it is a natural assumption for preterists to take “New Heaven and New Earth” to mean a new socio-religious-political environment, a new order in the New Covenant era, extending it even unto now. (Futurists simply believe that it is still to be fulfilled as the physical Earth is not destroyed as yet).

This, I believe, is not exactly correct. I would take “New Heaven and New Earth” as just a colloquial expression understood by the ancient Jews to mean “a new beginning”. No more, no less. As such, while the new beginning may have heralded in a new social, religious and political change, it does not have to carry that meaning.

When Paul wrote in 2 Cor 5:17 of new believer in Christ – you for example, "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" – Did the old things literally passed away for you? Did all things become new for you? Was anyone even aware of your new conversion (if you have not confessed to them)? Isn’t it just like an old year giving way to a new year? But it was definitely a “new heaven and a new earth” for you.

I do see your position being logical to some degree, yet I disagree that the NHNE is already here. What do you make of the part about no more sea? And doesn't Revelation 21 indicate the first heaven and the first earth were passed away? It doesn't look like to me it has passed away as of yet. You do realize that the former earth in view is a place wherein dwelleth evil, right? Is there still evil in the earth? Of course there is. Therefore the NHNE couldn't possibly already be here. No way can the new heavens and the new earth, and the former heavens and the former earth, exist at the same time. That would seem to make nonsense out of what 'former' means.

Choose Wisely · Dec 4, 2018

DavidPT said:
I'm in agreement except for there being a Pretrib rapture somewhere within this timeline.

How is it that Paul says that the Day of the Lord will not overtake them as a thief? They are children of the light and not of darkness.

1 Thes 5
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

And yet Jesus tells us we will not know when He is coming.
Matt 24
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

How will we NOT know when Jesus is coming when He specifically tells us?

Luke 21
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

When he comes for the church it will be like the days of Noah. They were eating and drinking until the day Noah entered the ark. It will be a SECRET RAPTURE before the tribulation, which is before the seals are opened.

When he comes for the twelve tribes it will be like the days of Lot. There will be famines which are part of the beginning of sorrows.

Matt 24
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Two different comings. One coming like the days of Noah where Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. That is the secret rapture. And one coming like the days of Lot, the very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction comes.......The Day of the Lord.

DavidPT · Dec 4, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Where are the members of the church of Philadelphia at the present time?

7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

They are now with Christ.

.

Doesn't this indicate that the church in Philadelphia meant here isn't confined to a period of time, such as the first century? If the hour of temptation is yet to occur, and if Jesus will keep them from the hour temptation, He couldn't possibly be meaning because they will have been dead by that time. That would be a moot point. This is yet further proof that to read and interpret Revelation the way Preterists typically do, makes nonsense of the texts at times.

Choose Wisely · Dec 4, 2018

DavidPT said:
Doesn't this indicate that the church in Philadelphia meant here isn't confined to a period of time, such as the first century? If the hour of temptation is yet to occur, and if Jesus will keep them from the hour temptation, He couldn't possibly be meaning because they will have been dead by that time. That would be a moot point. This is yet further proof that to read and interpret Revelation the way Preterists typically do, makes nonsense of the texts at times.

He knows this. But if there is anything he can do to lead others from the truth...............

mkgal1 · Dec 4, 2018

The Times said:
Future yes.

No to the destruction of the Church City, but yes to her judgement, where the many sons of perdition within her very walls will be removed from the Holy City by the breath of the Lord's mouth. The nations that come up against Jerusalem are the Gentiles coming to full and the full complement of numbers in the Book of Life is accounted for by those angry nations being feed as their peoples are being born, then dying in the Lord until Christ calls it a day by sounding the Final Trumpet and declaring time not longer.

That's a whole different gospel than what I see in Scripture.

BABerean2 · Dec 4, 2018

DavidPT said:
Doesn't this indicate that the church in Philadelphia meant here isn't confined to a period of time, such as the first century? If the hour of temptation is yet to occur, and if Jesus will keep them from the hour temptation, He couldn't possibly be meaning because they will have been dead by that time. That would be a moot point. This is yet further proof that to read and interpret Revelation the way Preterists typically do, makes nonsense of the texts at times.

Are you saying this letter to this specific church, and not the other 6 churches, was addressed to the modern Church?

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mkgal1 · Dec 4, 2018

DavidPT said:
I do see your position being logical to some degree, yet I disagree that the NHNE is already here. What do you make of the part about no more sea?

From what I currently understand - the original word used for "the sea" was the Greek word “thalassa”. It appears as a singular noun, thus indicating “one sea”, not the sum of all oceans and waters on planet Earth.

The Bible is written with lots of symbolism we aren't accustomed to (based on the ancient Jewish culture). Josephus discusses in great detail the representational scheme used in the building of the Jewish temple, the garments of the high priest, and the vessels used in the sacred temple ministrations.

The layout of the temple itself was a symbol of the cosmos. The lower parts of the temple, including the court of the gentiles, was the sea, the holy place was denoted as earth, and the holy of holies was the heaven. (Antiquities of the Jews. Book III, 7, 7)

Those that transplant the meaning of Rev. 21:1 into a physical realm, miss the entire point of the passage. Once the temple was destroyed, with the old heaven and old earth gone, the new heaven and new earth were instituted. This has to be done in order for us to have access to the new holy place, as Hebrews 9:8 indicates:

“The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing”

Evidently, while the temple was standing, it was impossible for humanity to have direct access to God. Furthermore, by specifically mentioning that “there is no longer any sea”, John made it clear that there is no longer a separation between Jews and Gentiles, erasing the exclusive relationship that God had with Israel. With the sea gone (the court of the Gentiles), all barriers have been removed, and the entire humanity can freely come to God. ~ The sea that is no longer | Planet Preterist

DavidPT said:
And doesn't Revelation 21 indicate the first heaven and the first earth were passed away? It doesn't look like to me it has passed away as of yet. You do realize that the former earth in view is a place wherein dwelleth evil, right? Is there still evil in the earth? Of course there is. Therefore the NHNE couldn't possibly already be here. No way can the new heavens and the new earth, and the former heavens and the former earth, exist at the same time. That would seem to make nonsense out of what 'former' means.

Yes, Rev 21 does indicate that.

The first heaven and earth = the ancient Temple system/Old Covenant. It's not the literal heaven/earth (that's also Jewish symbolism). In ancient Judaism it was believed that the place where heaven & earth met (God's domain and humanity's domain) was the Temple.

Yes....there IS still evil in this world, that's because God gave us free will (I believe, anyway....you may disagree). As Ray Vander Laan describes it - God's kingdom on earth brought "God's shalom to the chaos" ~ The Mission Of Jesus - Triumph of God’s Kingdom in a World of Chaos - Study Gateway

I believe it's up to believers to participate with God in order to show "His kingdom" on earth. Anytime His will is adhered to - His kingdom is shown. The idea that we need to sit and wait for it may be part of the reason why so many people can't believe in the power of God's love (they see little evidence of it).

claninja · Dec 4, 2018

DavidPT said:
You do realize that the former earth in view is a place wherein dwelleth evil, right? Is there still evil in the earth? Of course there is. Therefore the NHNE couldn't possibly already be here

There is still sin outside of the New Jerusalem
Revelation 22:15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves (present tense) and practices (present tense) falsehood.

There is still need for healing in the New Heavens and New Earth
Revelation 22:2 And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations

There is still physical death in the New Heavens and New Earth. There are still sinners in the new heavens and new earth
Isaiah 65:20 “Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the sinner who reaches a hundred will be considered accursed.

As I believe Christians now go to heaven upon physical death to be forever with the Lord, then I do believe the Christian that physically dies at 100 is a mere child. 100 years is a drop in the bucket for those that have eternal life in Christ

DavidPT · Dec 4, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Are you saying this letter to this specific church, and not the other 6 churches, was addressed to the modern Church?

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I'm just trying to be logical here is all. If the hour of temptation had nothing to do with those at the time, and that it is instead meaning in the end of this age, and if Jesus promised to keep them from this hour, and the fact those at the time are long dead and gone, well you don't keep dead people from this hour of temptation, you keep live people from this hour. Therefore the text requires that whoever is being addressed here, they have to be physically alive when this hour of temptation occurs.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Verse 11 says---Behold, I come quickly. How can that not be referring to His 2nd coming? And if it referring to that, obviously His 2nd coming never occurred in the lifetime of anyone living in the first century. Plus dead people don't need to still hold that fast which thou hast, once they are dead. Only live people still need to do that.

DavidPT · Dec 4, 2018

claninja said:
There is still sin outside of the New Jerusalem
Revelation 22:15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves (present tense) and practices (present tense) falsehood.

There is still need for healing in the New Heavens and New Earth
Revelation 22:2 And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations

There is still physical death in the New Heavens and New Earth. There are still sinners in the new heavens and new earth
Isaiah 65:20 “Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the sinner who reaches a hundred will be considered accursed.

As I believe Christians now go to heaven upon physical death to be forever with the Lord, then I do believe the Christian that physically dies at 100 is a mere child. 100 years is a drop in the bucket for those that have eternal life in Christ

I'm Premil for one, yet unlike most Premils, I tend to conclude the NHNE begin with the thousand years. Your view above can fit my view as well, as far as I can tell.

mkgal1 · Dec 4, 2018

DavidPT said:
....that it is instead meaning in the end of this age

What "age" do you believe we are currently in? Do you agree or disagree that we're in the "New covenant age"?

DavidPT · Dec 4, 2018

mkgal1 said:
What "age" do you believe we are currently in? Do you agree or disagree that we're in the "New covenant age"?

Allow me to show you via 2 Peter 3.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

This is the age we are still presently in. This is the age, that once it passes away, the NHNE can then begin. I can see where this might contradict Premil, especially my position since I tend to conclude the NHNE begin with the thousand years, and that I place the fulfilling of 2 Peter 3:7 at the end of this age as of the 2nd coming. This is why, though I'm currently Premil, that I don't discount a position such as Amil altogether.

claninja · Dec 4, 2018

DavidPT said:
I'm Premil for one, yet unlike most Premils, I tend to conclude the NHNE begin with the thousand years. Your view above can fit my view as well, as far as I can tell.

While I do disagree with your conclusion, as revelation 20-21 specifically have the NHNE coming AFTER the 1000 years and AFTER the GWTJ, I applaud you for recognizing and not ignoring the verses that state sin and death will still exist in the NHNE.

mkgal1 · Dec 4, 2018

DavidPT said:
Allow me to show you via 2 Peter 3.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

This is the age we are still presently in. This is the age, that once it passes away, the NHNE can then begin. I can see where this might contradict Premil, especially my position since I tend to conclude the NHNE begin with the thousand years, and that I place the fulfilling of 2 Peter 3:7 at the end of this age as of the 2nd coming. This is why, though I'm currently Premil, that I don't discount a position such as Amil altogether.

I only see two ages mentioned throughout the Bible - "this age" and "the age to come". The first (I believe) is the Old Covenant period - and the "age to come" (which was future when the NT was written) is the New Covenant period.

Coincidently, I don't see these time periods change swiftly. I believe there was a time of "birth pains" - a 40 year period - where the old was obsolete and the new was being brought forth (as Hebrews 8:13 says). Just as the above graphic shows - that 40 year period is when the NT was written.

View attachment 246416

If you believe we're still the the point of "this age" (waiting for the "age to come") - then we'd still be in the time of the Old Covenant (and waiting for the salvation that Christ brought).

Look at these verses from the NT that alludes to still waiting for the process of salvation to be complete:

Romans 13:11 ~ This is all the more urgent, for you know how late it is; time is running out. Wake up, for our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed.

Romans 5:10
For since our friendship with God was restored by the death of his Son while we were still his enemies, we will certainly be saved through the life of his Son.

1 Peter 1:5
Who by God’s power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Can you show me Scripture that mentions "age" to be something outside of what I'm understanding?

Context determines timing in Luke 21:32

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