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Constitution's "Natural Born" riddle solved! Read the shocking truth here!

pennmark

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"(The adoption of the Constitution) will demonstrate as visibly the finger of Providence as any possible event in the course of human affairs can ever designate it." - George Washington.

"I regard it as the work of the purest patriots and wisest statesmen that ever existed, aided by the smiles of a benignant Providence...it almost appears a Divine interposition in our behalf...." - Daniel Webster.

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams.

Here is a letter I wrote to my local newspaper:

May 23, 2011

To the Editor:

The Natural Born Clause in the US Constitution has been much discussed lately, with our President recently releasing his birth certificate. Last August, I wrote a letter to the ******* arguing that the 14th Amendment gives citizenship but does not extend natural born citizen status to those born within the USA. Since then, I have been debating what exactly "natural born" means on internet discussion boards. Through dialectical debate I believe we may have found the answer, and I would like to share it with your readers.

First of all, we must understand that the word "natural" is not a true legal term. It is impossible for human beings to define what is natural legally, because human law is man-made.

If you read the Declaration of Independence, it is obvious the founders of our country believed in a natural law that could be used to supercede human law. When they rebelled against the British Crown, they were breaking the Laws of Man. In order to justify their actions to themselves and to the rest of the world, they invoked the "Laws of Nature and of Nature's God". This proves their belief in a natural law and a supreme deity who presided over it.

I believe the Framers of the Constitution were citing this law when they used the word "natural" in conjunction with the words "born" and "citizen". They wanted the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God to provide the American people with a President who would be a natural brother to them. They decided not to define definitively for us what they wanted, and instead deferred to God's natural law, probably because as humans they were not qualified to define what was natural.

What was natural for this situation, however, was already written. Being Judeo-Christian men, the Framers believed in God and in his natural law. For them, his law was written into the Holy Bible. I believe the word "natural" is, in a sense, a coded message. It means: "Reference God's Natural Law in this matter. Look in your Bible for the meaning."

So, what does the Holy Bible tell us in this matter? I've searched through the Bible looking for relevent verses. There may be others, but so far I've been able to find two passages that can help us. The first is pretty straightforward and requires no explanation: "Be sure to appoint over you the King the Lord your God chooses. He must be from among your own brothers. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not a brother Isrealite." (Deuteronomy 17:15).

The second requires some roundabout thinking, but please bear with me. It describes a father's relationship with his children: "Sons are a heritage from the Lord, children a reward from him. Like arrows in the hands of a warrior are sons born in one's youth. Blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them. They will not be put to shame when they contend with their enemies in the gate" (Psalm 127:3-5).

This Psalm reveals to us God's Law concerning men, sons, and children: Children are a reward from God to men, sons in particular belong to their fathers, and men should consider them a blessing. A father should teach his son to defend his country.

This is relevant because if children belong to their father, it would logically follow that they would also belong to their father's nation at birth.

All of this enables us to create a Bible-conscious definition of what a Natural Born Citizen is in respect to the Presidency. There are three basic requirements:

1) He must have an American father.
2) His father must teach him to defend America.
3) He must be someone the American People can call a brother.

This definition, I think, is much more natural than our current "born within the borders of the USA" interpretation. It makes no sense to require that a President be born in America, because a person's birthplace has no bearing whatsoever on their ability to be President. A lot of America haters are born in America.

When we view the natural born requirement within the context of God's Natural Law, however, it suddenly begins to make a whole lot of sense. We all know that sons look up to their fathers. If a boy is taught by his father to defend his country, what is that young man going to do when he grows up to become President?

I know the biblical definition would be distasteful to many. But if we want to elect a President who is a natural born leader, someone we can trust to love and fight for us, we shold abide by God's Natural Laws rather than our own. The laws of God are more natural than the laws of men. When it comes to defining what is natural, God knows better than us. He is "Nature's God" after all.

And this, my friends, I believe, is the answer to our riddle.

Mark Penn

Postscript: I think I may have started a new movement here. We'll call ourselves the "Bible Birthers". ;)

What do you think? :cool:
 

RedDead1981

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1) He must have an American father.

Why just an American father?

2) His father must teach him to defend America.
Why must this teaching come from his father?

3) He must be someone the American People can call a brother.

This is wholely subjective and cannot be applied objectively or realistically to anyone. I can't call any president my brother because I don't know them. Neither do you. You can feel brotherly with the figure that gets up and makes speeches, but if that's the case then anyone who can speak and seem easy to get along can be someone you can call 'a brother.'

What exactly do you mean 'call a brother'?

I also noticed your letter left out the possibility of a woman president.
 
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KarateCowboy

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The end conclusion seems reasonable. An American father certainly seems reasonable for the Founder's ideas, given the times. These days I would say that you must have one American parent. I really don't believe in 'squat and drop' or 'citizenship tourism'.
 
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Touma

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The end conclusion seems reasonable. An American father certainly seems reasonable for the Founder's ideas, given the times. These days I would say that you must have one American parent. I really don't believe in 'squat and drop' or 'citizenship tourism'.

Say my wife and I immigrate legally to the US, and are not citizens. We are planning on being citizens one day, and raising family here. I have to wait 5 years before I am legally a US citizen. What happens if I have a child with my wife, IN US during that time before she or I are legal citizens? Despite my child being born and raised in the US, they would NEVER be eligible to be President, if you got your way.
 
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Ton80

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What do you think? :cool:

Not much.

I am an American female who was raped and impregnated by a foreign tourist. I chose to not have an abortion and give this child the best I can give. Now you are telling me that my American born child can never be President. I do not care for your Bible birtherism one bit.
 
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Incariol

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What do you think? :cool:

I think you've written yet another letter that won't be in the paper. This isn't a Christian nation, and your theology is totally tangential to the legal requirements for the Presidency.

Thankfully. Your requirements would set back women's rights a hundred years.
 
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tulc

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I'm curious why, after it's been demonstrated repeatedly, that this premise is based on nothing more then your wishful thinking why you bothered including this in you letter:
The Natural Born Clause in the US Constitution has been much discussed lately, with our President recently releasing his birth certificate. Last August, I wrote a letter to the ******* arguing that the 14th Amendment gives citizenship but does not extend natural born citizen status to those born within the USA. Since then, I have been debating what exactly "natural born" means on internet discussion boards. Through dialectical debate I believe we may have found the answer, and I would like to share it with your readers.
tulc(just curious) :wave:
 
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KarateCowboy

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Say my wife and I immigrate legally to the US, and are not citizens. We are planning on being citizens one day, and raising family here. I have to wait 5 years before I am legally a US citizen. What happens if I have a child with my wife, IN US during that time before she or I are legal citizens? Despite my child being born and raised in the US, they would NEVER be eligible to be President, if you got your way.

You say that as if it were a bad thing.

Nobody who has dual citizenship should be allowed to be President. Given that granting citizenship to your kid could result in that situation then it seems a good idea.
 
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Incariol

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You say that as if it were a bad thing.

Nobody who has dual citizenship should be allowed to be President. Given that granting citizenship to your kid could result in that situation then it seems a good idea.

The United States can be so tediously backwards, sometimes. This whole native citizenship requirement is so primitive. I wouldn't have any problem with a dual citizen running if they are willing to renounce their dual-citizenship.
 
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KarateCowboy

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The United States can be so tediously backwards, sometimes. This whole native citizenship requirement is so primitive. I wouldn't have any problem with a dual citizen running if they are willing to renounce their dual-citizenship.

How is it primitive? Or is it primitive because you do not like the idea?

It is a wise and prudent decision that guards against some very bad schemes.

Could you please explain why you think it is superior to allow foreign born nationals to be POTUS?
 
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Incariol

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How is it primitive? Or is it primitive because you do not like the idea?

Because its a silly and paranoid concept based on the belief that you can't care about a country unless you were born there.

It is a wise and prudent decision that guards against some very bad schemes.

Yeah, can't let those filthy outsider heretics in! They might corrupt our pure society with their heathenish perversions. Also the Nazi/Illuminati/Freemason/Romanists/Communists/Socialists/Homosexualists might have some nasty conspiracy to destroy the nation! *GASPSHOCKHORROR*

Could you please explain why you think it is superior to allow foreign born nationals to be POTUS?

I didn't say superior. Merely suggesting that in the 21st century maybe we can get past the Founding Father's silly paranoia.
 
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Incariol

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The nice thing? None of this applies to President Obama. :wave:
tulc(no matter how desperately penmark wishes it did) :sorry:

We all know that, Tulc. :cool:

I just wonder where in the USA Penmark lives that he thinks a letter so irrelevant to any locality could get published.
 
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FreeinChrist

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"(The adoption of the Constitution) will demonstrate as visibly the finger of Providence as any possible event in the course of human affairs can ever designate it." - George Washington.

"I regard it as the work of the purest patriots and wisest statesmen that ever existed, aided by the smiles of a benignant Providence...it almost appears a Divine interposition in our behalf...." - Daniel Webster.

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams.

Here is a letter I wrote to my local newspaper:

May 23, 2011

To the Editor:

The Natural Born Clause in the US Constitution has been much discussed lately, with our President recently releasing his birth certificate. Last August, I wrote a letter to the ******* arguing that the 14th Amendment gives citizenship but does not extend natural born citizen status to those born within the USA. Since then, I have been debating what exactly "natural born" means on internet discussion boards. Through dialectical debate I believe we may have found the answer, and I would like to share it with your readers.

First of all, we must understand that the word "natural" is not a true legal term. It is impossible for human beings to define what is natural legally, because human law is man-made.

If you read the Declaration of Independence, it is obvious the founders of our country believed in a natural law that could be used to supercede human law. When they rebelled against the British Crown, they were breaking the Laws of Man. In order to justify their actions to themselves and to the rest of the world, they invoked the "Laws of Nature and of Nature's God". This proves their belief in a natural law and a supreme deity who presided over it.

I believe the Framers of the Constitution were citing this law when they used the word "natural" in conjunction with the words "born" and "citizen". They wanted the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God to provide the American people with a President who would be a natural brother to them. They decided not to define definitively for us what they wanted, and instead deferred to God's natural law, probably because as humans they were not qualified to define what was natural.

What was natural for this situation, however, was already written. Being Judeo-Christian men, the Framers believed in God and in his natural law. For them, his law was written into the Holy Bible. I believe the word "natural" is, in a sense, a coded message. It means: "Reference God's Natural Law in this matter. Look in your Bible for the meaning."

So, what does the Holy Bible tell us in this matter? I've searched through the Bible looking for relevent verses. There may be others, but so far I've been able to find two passages that can help us. The first is pretty straightforward and requires no explanation: "Be sure to appoint over you the King the Lord your God chooses. He must be from among your own brothers. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not a brother Isrealite." (Deuteronomy 17:15).

The second requires some roundabout thinking, but please bear with me. It describes a father's relationship with his children: "Sons are a heritage from the Lord, children a reward from him. Like arrows in the hands of a warrior are sons born in one's youth. Blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them. They will not be put to shame when they contend with their enemies in the gate" (Psalm 127:3-5).

This Psalm reveals to us God's Law concerning men, sons, and children: Children are a reward from God to men, sons in particular belong to their fathers, and men should consider them a blessing. A father should teach his son to defend his country.

This is relevant because if children belong to their father, it would logically follow that they would also belong to their father's nation at birth.

All of this enables us to create a Bible-conscious definition of what a Natural Born Citizen is in respect to the Presidency. There are three basic requirements:

1) He must have an American father.
2) His father must teach him to defend America.
3) He must be someone the American People can call a brother.

This definition, I think, is much more natural than our current "born within the borders of the USA" interpretation. It makes no sense to require that a President be born in America, because a person's birthplace has no bearing whatsoever on their ability to be President. A lot of America haters are born in America.

When we view the natural born requirement within the context of God's Natural Law, however, it suddenly begins to make a whole lot of sense. We all know that sons look up to their fathers. If a boy is taught by his father to defend his country, what is that young man going to do when he grows up to become President?

I know the biblical definition would be distasteful to many. But if we want to elect a President who is a natural born leader, someone we can trust to love and fight for us, we shold abide by God's Natural Laws rather than our own. The laws of God are more natural than the laws of men. When it comes to defining what is natural, God knows better than us. He is "Nature's God" after all.

And this, my friends, I believe, is the answer to our riddle.

Mark Penn

Postscript: I think I may have started a new movement here. We'll call ourselves the "Bible Birthers". ;)

What do you think? :cool:


I think there is good reason for the separation of church and state.
 
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FaithLikeARock

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Actual, American values have traditionally been taught by the mother throughout history since the mother has been the one to usually hold power over the household after the Second Great Awakening. It's called the Spheres of Influence and in the 1800's determined a lot of how society was organized. So technically speaking, if your argument held any water at all and parentage mattered AT ALL (though historically it has not and historically "natural born citizen" has been nothing but a nice term to mean, well, CITIZEN BORN IN THE US) then it would be the MOTHER who would matter, NOT the father.

Also, why does the Founding Father's opinion matter in this day and age? They founded the country. Good for them. They also supporting slavery, subjugation of women, burning people at the stake, and systematically stealing land from Native Americans. OBVIOUSLY this means we should start all THAT up again.

The fact is, the Founding Fathers intentions don't matter when analyzing the Constitution because (A) COMPLETELY different time - in the 200 years since they've all died, technology, social structures, economy, and the state of the world has evolved dramatically and (B) as already stated, they're dead. And you can try to predict their intentions until you're blue in the face but I think it's a little disrespectful to them to try and assume exactly what they meant when they are not here to tell you point blank. Hence why we have a branch of government that interprets the Constitution - it's call the Supreme Court. And if a single judge wanting to be appointed said their method was based on "interpreting the intentions of the Founding Fathers" they'd be laughed out of Congress because determining the laws of the nation based on the supposed opinions of people not alive to confirm or deny it, is the single worst way to interpret a legally binding document just short of not being able to read the document in the first place.

So, major fail. More birther propaganda. This threads should stop existing because they're tiring and ridiculous and have absolutely no proof, legal, logical or historical.
 
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tulc

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We all know that, Tulc. :cool:
Well, this thread alone proves your use of the word "all" isn't completely accurate. :sorry:


I just wonder where in the USA Penmark lives that he thinks a letter so irrelevant to any locality could get published.
it could be anywhere. :sigh:
tulc(is drinking a very good cup of coffee!) :thumbsup:
 
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To the OP:

Your reasoning is sound based on the society, thoughts and intentions of the framers of America and it's Constitution.

The problem is, over the last 60 years or so, a large contingent of Americans cannot and do not identify with the society, thoughts and intentions of the framers because they are not like them.

A large and growing number of Americans are anti-God, anti-human, pro-godless government, pro- "mother earth". These people have NOTHING in common with the people who began the USA and framed the Constitution that guides it.

Since they cannot or will not understand or agree with the highly religious founders of America, they want to live in opposition to the Constitution as well as the God who created them.

The only people who care about the Constitution and all it's explicit references to the Creator are those who are like-minded with the framers of the USA and it's Constitution - BELIEVING/PRACTICING CHRISTIANS.
 
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CTD

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To the OP:

Your reasoning is sound based on the society, thoughts and intentions of the framers of America and it's Constitution.

The problem is, over the last 60 years or so, a large contingent of Americans cannot and do not identify with the society, thoughts and intentions of the framers because they are not like them.

A large and growing number of Americans are anti-God, anti-human, pro-godless government, pro- "mother earth". These people have NOTHING in common with the people who began the USA and framed the Constitution that guides it.

Since they cannot or will not understand or agree with the highly religious founders of America, they want to live in opposition to the Constitution as well as the God who created them.

The only people who care about the Constitution and all it's explicit references to the Creator are those who are like-minded with the framers of the USA and it's Constitution - BELIEVING/PRACTICING CHRISTIANS.
Precise and accurate.

If the people ever wrest control back from the most disobedient and unfaithful servants, we would do well to take steps to cement this understanding.
 
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tulc

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To the OP:

Your reasoning is sound based on the society, thoughts and intentions of the framers of America and it's Constitution.

The problem is, over the last 60 years or so, a large contingent of Americans cannot and do not identify with the society, thoughts and intentions of the framers because they are not like them.

A large and growing number of Americans are anti-God, anti-human, pro-godless government, pro- "mother earth". These people have NOTHING in common with the people who began the USA and framed the Constitution that guides it.

Since they cannot or will not understand or agree with the highly religious founders of America, they want to live in opposition to the Constitution as well as the God who created them.

First off: Welcome to CF! :wave:
secondly: since the the framers have been dead some 200+ years it doesn't really matter what their opinions were. :wave:
tulc(doesn't expect his opinion is going to matter in 200+ years either) ;)
 
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