Constantine the Great

[W2L]

The relationship between the church and the state was simple in the days of the apostles. The church had no influence on the decisions of the state and basically had a policy of respecting its authority and laws. This while focusing on the task of building the church. By the time of Constantine the church had grown to the point where public officials were Christians and even the Emperor of Rome. In that context the question of the dichotomy between church and state is a false one. The question was rather how could both be brought into harmony with Christ. Baby Christians only need the simple basics of repent and believe. The more mature church needed to reach back into the Old Testament for guidance on how to be a Christian ruler and how to mould the state and society into the image of Christ.

Church and state must remain separated. The kingdom is not of this world. Thats meat not milk. Its spiritual not carnal. Unlike the state, our warfare and weapons are spiritual not carnal.

 

[Alithis]

Clearly not but is this the legacy of Constantine. By ending the persecution of Christians and the building of churches dedicated to Gods glory, the calling of councils to resolve divisive disputes he acted as a Protector and as one who blesses the church.

He built many buildings but never a church..
Only Jesus is the builder of HIS church..

 

[Chris V++]

Here the 'Naked Archaeologist' makes an argument that Constantine was really a pagan adapting to the emerging Christian culture. The narrator isn't Christian for what that's worth. It gets interesting at the end where he starts analyzing Constantine's Arch.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Constantine was the first Christian emperor of Rome , the founder of the Christian city of Constantinople which was to be the capital of the Byzantine empire for a thousand years, the builder of many key churches in the Roman empire region. Many of the creeds, canons and doctrines of the church were finalised or processes were set in motion to finalise during his reign. The man was a conqueror winning numerous battles including the famous battle of Milvian Bridge in which he had a vision of the cross before the battle. His men wore the cross on their shields to victory.

1) Was it a good thing for the church that it gained control of the government?
2) Was Constantine a real Christian?
3) What was the real fruit, in Christian terms, of his reign?

1) No. It created a dichotomy between the way that Jesus started and the compromise, until no one could remember what the former was.
2) That's up to God.
3) It's too long ago, 1000 years from now, people might try to discuss who Trump was but still know nothing ... because they were not there.

 

[mindlight]

Church and state must remain separated. The kingdom is not of this world. Thats meat not milk. Its spiritual not carnal. Unlike the state, our warfare and weapons are spiritual not carnal.

If the King becomes a Christian then how can church and state be separate!? All the Kingdoms of this world are under Christs authority and must ultimately submit to him.

"“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

 

[mindlight]

He built many buildings but never a church..
Only Jesus is the builder of HIS church..

The church belongs to Christ, it is his church, no debate about that. Also a church building is not a church, the people are the church. But if Constantine or Theodosius became members of that church then the personification of the Roman state has also become Christian and there is no distinction between church and state in such an imperial constitution.

 

[W2L]

If the King becomes a Christian then how can church and state be separate!? All the Kingdoms of this world are under Christs authority and must ultimately submit to him.

"“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

I wouldnt follow such a man. Our warfare is not carnal and neither are our weapons, so that leaves out the king. The kingdom of God is not of this world. The world rejects God and His ways, and we are commanded to be separate from the world. Also, you cant force the gospel on people via legislation. You cant Lord the gospel over people.

 

[mindlight]

I wouldnt follow such a man. Our warfare is not carnal and neither are our weapons, so that leaves out the king. The kingdom of God is not of this world. The world rejects God and His ways, and we are commanded to be separate from the world. Also, you cant force the gospel on people via legislation. You cant Lord the gospel over people.

Constantine did not legislate Christianity but by the Edict of Milan he allowed for its toleration (for freedom of worship). A Christian Emperor is one through whom Gods authority is mediated. Those who wish to distinguish church and state usually do so to justify rebellion against the civil authorities as did the American revolutionaries in the days of mad King George III. Romans 13:1-7 is clear these authorities are appointed by God.

Since you must pay taxes and obey the law you do not live in world where you can ignore this

 

[W2L]

Constantine did not legislate Christianity but by the Edict of Milan he allowed for its toleration (for freedom of worship). A Christian Emperor is one through whom Gods authority is mediated. Those who wish to distinguish church and state usually do so to justify rebellion against the civil authorities as did the American revolutionaries in the days of mad King George III. Romans 13:1-7 is clear these authorities are appointed by God.

Since you must pay taxes and obey the law you do not live in world where you can ignore this

I pay taxes, and obey the law of the land as long as it doesnt conflict with Gods law. However we're not supposed to judge the world. I follow apostles not politicians. What do the apostles say?

1 Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God [a]judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

 

[Barney2.0]

Well firstly the Church didn’t gain control of the government during Constantine’s reign, it merely became a legal religion that could be practiced openly and conduct its practices and issues openly without harassment of fear with protection of the state. It was during the reign of Theodosius that the Church effectively gained control of the state. In regards to the context of the time I think it was a good thing that the Church gained control over the government during the time, the Church was probably the most moral organization in the Roman Empire at the time and possibly in most of the known world. So it was good that the Church gained control of a world super power known for being barbaric and tyrannical and changed t for the better, such as banning crucifixtion and the gladiatorial games. Everything we know about Constantine makes it clear he was a devout Christian, I personally think he never was a pagan, it is well known that his mother Saint Helena was a practicing Christian, my guess was that he was raised a Christian and only later openly declared it when he took power, I believe he was just continuing his father’s practice of honoring Sol Invictus as a political move due it to being their household deity and one of their state deities. As for the fruits he gave Christianity in terms of his reign, he protected Christianity as a religion, legalized it, tried to solve disputes in the Church fairly as in the case of Saint Athanasius and Arius, and gave it the opportunity to spend throughout the Roman Empire and later the world. So Constantine did quite a a lot for Christianity, which is a shame that most Christians don’t recognize his great achievements for the faith.

 

[mindlight]

I pay taxes, and obey the law of the land as long as it doesnt conflict with Gods law. However we're not supposed to judge the world. I follow apostles not politicians. What do the apostles say?

The only examples of the apostles disobeying the law of the land was in the case of evangelism or worship. In both cases they often paid with their lives for obeying Gods law over mans. No American I know has ever been put to death in America for doing either of these things. It was Constantine that changed that reality for the late Roman empire.

1 Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God [a]judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

In a state where the organs of government are Christian we would expect Christian laws for all to be the case.

 

[mindlight]

Well firstly the Church didn’t gain control of the government during Constantine’s reign, it merely became a legal religion that could be practiced openly and conduct its practices and issues openly without harassment of fear with protection of the state. It was during the reign of Theodosius that the Church effectively gained control of the state. In regards to the context of the time I think it was a good thing that the Church gained control over the government during the time, the Church was probably the most moral organization in the Roman Empire at the time and possibly in most of the known world. So it was good that the Church gained control of a world super power known for being barbaric and tyrannical and changed t for the better, such as banning crucifixtion and the gladiatorial games. Everything we know about Constantine makes it clear he was a devout Christian, I personally think he never was a pagan, it is well known that his mother Saint Helena was a practicing Christian, my guess was that he was raised a Christian and only later openly declared it when he took power, I believe he was just continuing his father’s practice of honoring Sol Invictus as a political move due it to being their household deity and one of their state deities. As for the fruits he gave Christianity in terms of his reign, he protected Christianity as a religion, legalized it, tried to solve disputes in the Church fairly as in the case of Saint Athanasius and Arius, and gave it the opportunity to spend throughout the Roman Empire and later the world. So Constantine did quite a a lot for Christianity, which is a shame that most Christians don’t recognize his great achievements for the faith.

Constantine's mother may have been a Christian but his father was not. His awareness of and attraction to the faith even from childhood did not mean he was a Christian early on also. His mothers divorce from his father for the sake of his fathers political ambitions speak of a father who was more a Real Politick player than a Saint who probably implemented Diocletian's persecutions of Christians in his part of the empire. In practice Constantine was a little bit of both his father and his mother with his mothers faith winning him over in the end. Cruicifxion was indeed banned by Constantine in 337 and out of respect for its greatest victim Jesus. However Gladiatorial combats were hosted by the Emperor and the practice did not completely die out for centuries more.

I agree that his adjudication of Christian disputes like that of the Arian controversy was an important factor in their timely resolution and that on the whole he protected the faith.

 

[basilbear76]

The origin of the Roman catholicism and the idea that to be in a church means to have wordly power and a good wordly career.

The church lost its purity, because many false Christians pushed in to get the advantages.

This is not true, as the Roman Catholic church did not exist until she split from Orthodoxy.

As far as the "church losing its purity," the Church is a hospital for sinners, not a vacation resort for the respectable.

BTW, Constantine did NOT make Christianity the state religion, but only a legal one.

It was his grandson Theodosius who made it the only allowed religion.

How would you feel about classical paganism still continuing?

 

[basilbear76]

Here the 'Naked Archaeologist' makes an argument that Constantine was really a pagan adapting to the emerging Christian culture. The narrator isn't Christian for what that's worth. It gets interesting at the end where he starts analyzing Constantine's Arch.

Simcha Yakabovici has several axes to grind and seems to hate Christianity in any form.

 

[W2L]

The only examples of the apostles disobeying the law of the land was in the case of evangelism or worship. In both cases they often paid with their lives for obeying Gods law over mans. No American I know has ever been put to death in America for doing either of these things. It was Constantine that changed that reality for the late Roman empire.



In a state where the organs of government are Christian we would expect Christian laws for all to be the case.

Should we be pushing our faith onto others, and lording over them?

 

[mindlight]

Should we be pushing our faith onto others, and lording over them?

South American conquistadors = A Christian South America
Imperial conquest of Africa by European powers = Christian sub Saharan Africa
The Crusades in Eastern Europe/Spain/Balkans = Christian expansion or reconquest in Europe
Russian expansion across Asia = Christian expansion to the Pacific coast

versus

Catholics and Protestants competing to force their own interpretations of Christianity in Europe led to religious wars that devastated whole populations. Many American protestants came out of the kinds of oppressions this generated with very negative understandings of the value of a Christian state. Many of these same Americans are unaware of the bias they bring to their reading of scripture.

So it depends. There is a time to insist and a time to desist being the correct answer. A consideration of the feelings of those bound to hell is not the priority consideration of the church but rather the glory of Christ.

But in the case of Constantine it is clear that millions of people came into the church as a result and the quality of life of the Christian church was vastly improved by his legalisation of Christianity and general support for it.

 

[Alithis]

The church belongs to Christ, it is his church, no debate about that. Also a church building is not a church, the people are the church. But if Constantine or Theodosius became members of that church then the personification of the Roman state has also become Christian and there is no distinction between church and state in such an imperial constitution.

He built many buildings .never a church

 

[basilbear76]

South American conquistadors = A Christian South America
Imperial conquest of Africa by European powers = Christian sub Saharan Africa
The Crusades in Eastern Europe/Spain/Balkans = Christian expansion or reconquest in Europe
Russian expansion across Asia = Christian expansion to the Pacific coast

versus

Catholics and Protestants competing to force their own interpretations of Christianity in Europe led to religious wars that devastated whole populations. Many American protestants came out of the kinds of oppressions this generated with very negative understandings of the value of a Christian state. Many of these same Americans are unaware of the bias they bring to their reading of scripture.

So it depends. There is a time to insist and a time to desist being the correct answer. A consideration of the feelings of those bound to hell is not the priority consideration of the church but rather the glory of Christ.

But in the case of Constantine it is clear that millions of people came into the church as a result and the quality of life of the Christian church was vastly improved by his legalisation of Christianity and general support for it.

The Crusades were Christian Europe's response to mahometan jihadistism.

And it was the ORTHODOX who suffered the most from the mahometans.

 

[mindlight]

The Crusades were Christian Europe's response to mahometan jihadistism.

And it was the ORTHODOX who suffered the most from the mahometans.

Actually there were not just crusades in the Middle East or in Europe to retake Christian lands from Muslims but also in Eastern Europe where there were no Muslims.

 

[basilbear76]

Actually there were not just crusades in the Middle East or in Europe to retake Christian lands from Muslims but also in Eastern Europe where there were no Muslims.

Actually, there WERE mahometans in Eastern Europe.

Ever hear of Albania? Or Kosovo?