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Constantine Creed..
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Originally Posted by Michaelismyname
oh well- what little I know of Constantine -whether the original posted copy of that creed was his or not matters not at all to me .
I do not follow Constantine - I follow the Lord Jesus and he said "you shall know them by their fruits " Based on what little I know the man does not appear to ever have been born again of water and SPIRIT .God knows .
but Constantine sure didn't get Christianity for the good of the kingdom of God . seems to me he got it for personal gain and power
But of course
.
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Cappadocious
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Reading actual primary sources in good modern translation about Constantine is better than petty speculation.
Gossip about the reposed is still gossip.
Gossip about the reposed is still gossip.
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Jipsah
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Out the gate I'm betting that Constantine never heard of this "creed".
Looks like this was supposed to be something for Jewish converts to Christianity, as it would be hard for us gentile types to have renounced things we'd never contemplated in the first place. Looks like the idea is that if they return to the practice of Judaism or were just faking in the first place then that's really bad.
That is't really really bad to renounce Christ and return to a false religion? Yeah, I believe that. How can anyone think that abandoning the Faith is a good thing?
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annier
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First I would have to know some things.
1. Was the benediction cursing Christ and his followers still being mandated in the synaogues?
2. Were the jews which believed still considered non Jews by the Jewish Sanhedrin?
3. Were the Jews still under the wrath of God which John Preached was coming?
Before I judged some of these statements, I would have to look at what the Sanhedrin made Judaism, and what that Sanhedrin made a Jew.
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annier
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Not only what you say above, but the history of the new Sanhedrin established by Rome at Yavneh, more than likely is the context behind much of the above statements.
That Sanherin was given power over "Jews' and ''Judaism" more so than Constantine is claimed to have had over Christianity. Anyone reading Moses law can clearly read about the curses which John preached was coming. This is what Constantine was speaking about in the last few verses. No differently than Paul himself said. The same reason why the Ebionotes which preached keeping Moses rejected Pauls writings as well.
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annier
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DEFENDING THE BRIDE
THE CURSE AGAINST CHRISTIANS AT JAMNIA ABOUT 90 AD
The sole purpose of this page is to show the illogicalness of Christians pointing to this group (council?) of Jews to define which books belong in the Old Testament. (Please read my ecumenical statement and disclaimer toward Judaism listed at the end of the page.)
The curse can be documented by referring to the following quotes taken from Encyclopaedia Judaica under the subject headings listed below. The page references are listed at the end of this article. The Encyclopaedia Judaica is advertised as The Most Comprehensive Authoritative Source on the Jewish World.
"JABNEH
called Iamnia or Jamnia
After the fall of Jerusalem, the Sanhedrin was reconstituted at Jabneh, first under R. Johanan and then under the patriarch Rabban Gamaliel II " 1
"BIRKAT HA-MINIM
the 12th benediction of the weekday *Amidah
Under Rabban Gamaliel II (first century C.E.) this prayer was invoked against the Judeo-Christian and Gnostic sects and other heretics who were called by the general term *min (plural minim). To avoid any suspicion of heresy, the hazzan had to be certain to recite this prayer in public worship. If he omitted it by error, he had to return an recite it, although such a regulation does not apply to any other benediction (Tanh. B., Lev. 2a).
The formulation of this prayer is ascribed to *Samuel ha-Katan, who revised its text after it had fallen into oblivion (Ber. 28b)." 2
"MIN
According to Berakhot 28b, Samuel ha Katan (fl. c. 80-110), at the invitation of Gamaliel II of Jabneh, composed the "benediction against the minim," included in the Amidah as the twelfth benediction (see E. J. Bickerman, in HTR, 55 (1962), 171, n. 35). This was directed primarily against Judeo-Christians (specifically mentioned in one old textsee Schechter, JQR 10 (1897 / 98)), either to keep them out of the synagogue or to proclaim a definite breach between the two religions." 3
[See article Genizah Specimens / Liturgy, by Solomon Schechter, in The Jewish Quarterly Review, Volume 10, 1898, pages 654 - 659.]
"AMIDAH
(12) Asks God to destroy the malshinim ("slanderers" or "informers"), all His enemies, and to shatter the "kingdom of arrogance" (see below).
Birkat ha Minim (benediction 12), introduced in Jabneh by Samuel ha Katan, at the request of Rabban Gamaliel II, enlarged on the meaning of a previously known benediction, as Shel Paroshin ("concerning the dissidents") or Shel Reshaim ("concerning the wicked"). He did this by applying it specifically to Jewish heretics. It is generally assumed that this new formulation was meant to force the Judeo-Christians out of the Jewish community; in the Genizah version, the word Nozerim ("Christians") actually occurs." 4
"SAMUEL HA-KATAN
Samuel is best known for Birkat ha-Minim, which expressed anathema against Judeo-Christians, sectarians, and informers. It was composed at the request of Gamaliel II, and incorporated into the daily *Amidah (Ber. 28b)." 5
To express an Anathema against someone is to pray or to proclaim a curse against them. The word "Christ" means Messiah, but came to be part of Jesus Christs name. So, to express an anathema against "Christians" would be to express an anathema against Jesus Christ as well.
It is to this meeting of Jews in Jamnia, or Jabneh, in the late first century that Protestants have consistently looked to determined their Old Testament. This same group of Rabbis required all the Jews to proclaim the above stated curse against all Jews who became Christians, as well as against Christ Himself. So, Protestants must ask themselves, how can they be so sure that this group of Rabbis correctly discerned what constituted the Word of God, that is, what belonged in the Old Testament.
These facts can also be partially verified on-line with the quotations below at:
ENCYCLOPÆDIA BRITANNICA,
in the Article: Judaism,
section:
The Roman period (63 BCE-135 CE)
Origin of Christianity: the early Christians and the Jewish community
" There were four major stages in the final break between Christianity and Judaism: (1) the flight of the Jewish Christians from Jerusalem to Pella across the Jordan in 70 and their refusal to continue the struggle against the Romans; (2) the institution by the patriarch Gamaliel II of a prayer in the Eighteen Benedictions against such heretics (c. 100), and (3 and 4) the failure of the Christians to join the messianic leaders Lukuas-Andreas and Bar Kokhba in the revolts against Trajan (115-117) and Hadrian (132-135), respectively. "
This article links to the following article:
Gamaliel II
"fl. 2nd century AD
also called GAMALIEL OF JABNEH,..
In the ancient biblical city of Jabneh, many Jews had taken refuge from the Roman siege of Jerusalem in AD 70. Gamaliel succeeded Johanan ben Zakkai as leader of a school of He devoted special attention to the regulation of prayer ritual, which had become all-important since the cessation of sacrificial worship. He gave the principal prayer, the 'amida, consisting of 18 (subsequently 19) benedictions, its final revision and declared that it was every Israelite's duty to recite it three times daily."
Endnotes:
1. Encyclopaedia Judaica, Published in 1971 by The Macmillan Company, New York. Volume 9, page 1176, Article: JABNEH.
2. Ibid. Volume 4, page 1035, Article: BIRAKAT HA-MINIM.
3. Ibid. Volume 12, page 3, Article: MIN.
4. Ibid. Volume 2, pages 841 - 842, Article: AMIDAH.
5. Ibid. Volume 14, pages 815 - 816, Article: SAMUEL HA-KATAN
Disclaimer:
I would strongly object to anyone misusing this article to promote any kind of prejudice or anti-Semitism. It would be wrong to blame all Jewish people for the actions of some. Correspondingly, we would not want all Catholics to be blamed for the sins of some Catholics, which in some cases is much, much worse than the objectionable behavior listed here.
The Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, has affirmed the Jewish peoples special status as our elder brother ( using Pope John Paul IIs phrase) and that they have a unique place among all other religions. In the past, as Prefect of the Council for Doctrine and Faith, he stated that in the wake of the lessons of the Holocaust, the Biblical Commission could not ignore the contemporary context, where the shock of the Shoah has put the whole question [of our relationship with the Jewish people and their Scriptures] under a new light.
[See the Preface to The Jewish People and their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible released by the Vatican in 2001.]
So visionary, considering this curse upon Christ and his followers, being mandated to participate in JEWISH SYNAGOGUE LIFE, would it have been true?
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Mikeb85
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First of all, this quote is definitely NOT attributable to Constantine, nor the Council of Nicea, nor the Council of Constantinople.
I'm not even convinced this is a legitimate document at all, so far the evidence points to 'fake'.
If by some chance it is legitimate, the post above me gives some good historical context. Judaism changed drastically after 2 failed rebellions, rejection of Christ, and their expulsion from the Holy Land (and not for the better).
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annier
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Yes Mike, Judaism has changed after al that. Just as the Church has changed. There is no reason to get into all this finger pointing of past wrongs because that is all this leads to. What came out of the yavneh council was some very bad stuff. This is not to ignore the history of what went on with the Church either. Out of which came some even more bad stuff. But how are you to defend statements made by some in history if you do not point out what was done in Judaism? We all can sit here AND BE JUST LIKE THE PHARISEES HERE. Pointing fingers at everyone else.
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
We know John the Baptist said similar things of that Generation of Rulers. It was the disciples of those rulers which ruled over Jews by the Sanhedrin Rome established at Yavneh. I do not even know if it would have been legal to call a "MESSINIC JEW" a Jew, in that period. Not because of any Catholic Church, as it was yet PRIMARILY JEWISH STILL and Catholic Christianity was not yet in it latter existence as Gentile or Romanish or greekish, when these changes were made in the Roman empire by that Sanhedrin.
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annier
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IF.....it is a fake, this amounts to nothing more or less, than a modern day progrom against the historic fathers of the Christian creeds of Christianity.
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Standing Up
On and on
Looks like it was written in 1784, attributing it to Constantine c325ad.
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annier
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Where is the 325 ad statement? Where is his source for this quote?
Still, even if it is not fake, The synagogues in the Roman empire had long been established by the Sanhedrin at Yavneh (Jaminia). Do not forget, the reality which existed as well. A mandated curse upon Christ and his followers in order to participate in Jewish life in fellowship, is no small matter to ignore when reading statements made concerning "Judaism" in certain points of history.
Today, it is required to deny Christ to convert. A whole different thing than what was set up by the Sanhedrin newly established by Rome in 90 ad.
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annier
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Who else gave them power over Jews and Judaism in the Empire? Rome was the governing power which decided which religions were legal, and who were the authorities over those religions. Yes Rome set them up into power. What they held for Jews and Judaism was by roman power. Just like every other religion which was legalized in the Empire.
It was no different than Constantine legalizing Christianity.
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Lovely Lane
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Internet History Sourcebooks Project
Visgothic and Byzantine
B: PROFESSION OF FAITH, FROM THE CHURCH OF CONSTANTINOPLE
From Assemani, Cod. Lit., 1, p. 105.
As a preliminary to his acceptance as a catechumen, a Jew ' must confess and denounce verbally the whole Hebrew people, and forthwith declare that with a whole heart and sincere faith he desires to be received among the Christians. Then he must renounce openly in the church all Jewish superstition, the priest saying, and he, or his sponsor if he is a child, replying in these words:
'I renounce all customs, rites, legalisms, unleavened breads and sacrifices of lambs of the Hebrews, and all the other feasts of the Hebrews, sacrifices, prayers, aspersions, purifications, sanctifications and propitiations, and fasts, and new moons, and Sabbaths, and superstitions, and hymns and chants and observances and synagogues, and the food and drink of the Hebrews; in one word, I renounce absolutely everything Jewish, every law, rite and custom, and above all I renounce Antichrist, whom all the Jews await in the figure and form of Christ; and I join myself to the true Christ and God. And I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the Holy, Consubstantial and Indivisible Trinity, and the dispensation in the flesh and the descent to men of the Word of God, of the one person of the Holy Trinity, and I confess that he was truly made man, and I believe and proclaim that after the flesh in very truth the Blessed Virgin Mary bore him the son of God. and 1 believe in, receive, venerate and embrace the adorable Cross of Grist, and the holy images; and thus, with my whole heart, and soul, and with a true faith I come to the Christian Faith. But if it be with deceit and with hypocrisy, and not with a sincere and perfect faith and a genuine love of Christ, but with a pretence to a be Christian that I come, and if afterwards I shall wish to deny and return to Jewish superstition, or shall be found eating with Jews, or feasting with them, or secretly conversing and condemning the Christian religion instead of openly confuting them and condemning their vain faith, then let the trembling of Cain and the leprosy of Gehazi cleave to me, as well as the legal punishments to which I acknowledge myself liable. And may 1 be anathema in the world to come, and may my soul be set down with Satan and the devils.'
Source.
from James Parkes: The Conflict of the Church and the Synagogue: A Study in the Origins of Antisemitism, (New York: JPS, 1934), 394-400
In the day, this must have been one of the established modes to eradicate Judaism.
Visgothic and Byzantine
B: PROFESSION OF FAITH, FROM THE CHURCH OF CONSTANTINOPLE
From Assemani, Cod. Lit., 1, p. 105.
As a preliminary to his acceptance as a catechumen, a Jew ' must confess and denounce verbally the whole Hebrew people, and forthwith declare that with a whole heart and sincere faith he desires to be received among the Christians. Then he must renounce openly in the church all Jewish superstition, the priest saying, and he, or his sponsor if he is a child, replying in these words:
'I renounce all customs, rites, legalisms, unleavened breads and sacrifices of lambs of the Hebrews, and all the other feasts of the Hebrews, sacrifices, prayers, aspersions, purifications, sanctifications and propitiations, and fasts, and new moons, and Sabbaths, and superstitions, and hymns and chants and observances and synagogues, and the food and drink of the Hebrews; in one word, I renounce absolutely everything Jewish, every law, rite and custom, and above all I renounce Antichrist, whom all the Jews await in the figure and form of Christ; and I join myself to the true Christ and God. And I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the Holy, Consubstantial and Indivisible Trinity, and the dispensation in the flesh and the descent to men of the Word of God, of the one person of the Holy Trinity, and I confess that he was truly made man, and I believe and proclaim that after the flesh in very truth the Blessed Virgin Mary bore him the son of God. and 1 believe in, receive, venerate and embrace the adorable Cross of Grist, and the holy images; and thus, with my whole heart, and soul, and with a true faith I come to the Christian Faith. But if it be with deceit and with hypocrisy, and not with a sincere and perfect faith and a genuine love of Christ, but with a pretence to a be Christian that I come, and if afterwards I shall wish to deny and return to Jewish superstition, or shall be found eating with Jews, or feasting with them, or secretly conversing and condemning the Christian religion instead of openly confuting them and condemning their vain faith, then let the trembling of Cain and the leprosy of Gehazi cleave to me, as well as the legal punishments to which I acknowledge myself liable. And may 1 be anathema in the world to come, and may my soul be set down with Satan and the devils.'
Source.
from James Parkes: The Conflict of the Church and the Synagogue: A Study in the Origins of Antisemitism, (New York: JPS, 1934), 394-400
In the day, this must have been one of the established modes to eradicate Judaism.
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annier
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Again you quote a book someone wrote. Where is the original manuscrpirt to prove this? And what of the curses on Christ and his followers to participate in FELLOWSHIP with Jews?
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