Constantine Creed..

[Lovely Lane]

Again you quote a book someone wrote. Where is the original manuscrpirt to prove this? And what of the curses on Christ and his followers to participate in FELLOWSHIP with Jews?

Again? This is my first post on it.
And I would think that all books are written by someone. Where are the original OT or NT manuscripts? I may not understand your question.

 

[Erose]

oh well- what little I know of Constantine -whether the original posted copy of that creed was his or not matters not at all to me .
I do not follow Constantine - I follow the Lord Jesus and he said "you shall know them by their fruits " Based on what little I know the man does not appear to ever have been born again of water and SPIRIT .God knows .

but Constantine sure didn't get Christianity for the good of the kingdom of God . seems to me he got it for personal gain and power

There is still a lot that Christians and for that matter Jews have to thank Constantine for which is primarily ending the persecutions in the Roman Empire.

 

[Erose]

I think it should be pretty obvious that is is a fake. The history of Constantine does not mention that he was at one time a Jew.

 

[annier]

Any sources for these ideas?

yes, Rabbi joseph Telushkin mentions this in his book. It is recorded in Talmud. An excerpt of the story of the establishment of Yavneh.
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When Jerusalem Burned
By: Joseph Telushkin
At the beginning of the Common Era, a new group arose among the Jews: the Zealots (in Hebrew, Ka-na-im). These anti-Roman rebels were active for more than six decades, and later instigated the Great Revolt. Their most basic belief was that all means were justified to attain political and religious liberty.
The Jews' anti-Roman feelings were seriously exacerbated during the reign of the half-crazed emperor Caligula who, in the year 39, declared himself to be a deity and ordered his statue to be set up at every temple in the Roman Empire. The Jews, alone in the empire, refused the command; they would not defile God's Temple with a statue of pagan Rome's newest deity.
Caligula threatened to destroy the Temple, so a delegation of Jews was sent to pacify him. To no avail. Caligula raged at them, "So you are the enemies of the gods, the only people who refuse to recognize my divinity." Only the emperor's sudden, and violent death saved the Jews from wholesale massacre.
Caligula's action radicalized even the more moderate Jews. What assurance did they have, after all, that another Roman ruler would not arise and try to defile the Temple or destroy Judaism altogether? In addition, Caligula's sudden demise might have been interpreted as confirming the Zealots' belief that God would fight alongside the Jews if only they would have the courage to confront Rome.
In the decades after Caligula's death, Jews found their religion subject to periodic gross indignities, Roman soldiers exposing themselves in the Temple on one occasion and burning a Torah scroll on another.
Ultimately, the combination of financial exploitation, Rome's unbridled contempt for Judaism, and the unabashed favoritism that the Romans extended to gentiles living in Israel brought about the revolt.
In the year 66, Florus, the last Roman procurator, stole vast quantities of silver from the Temple. The outraged Jewish masses rioted and wiped out the small Roman garrison stationed in Jerusalem. Cestius Gallus, the Roman ruler in neighboring Syria, sent in a larger force of soldiers. But the Jewish insurgents routed them as well.
This was a heartening victory that had a terrible consequence: Many Jews suddenly became convinced that they could defeat Rome, and the Zealots' ranks grew geometrically. Never again, however, did the Jews achieve so decisive a victory.
When the Romans returned, they had 60,000 heavily armed and highly professional troops. They launched their first attack against the Jewish state's most radicalized area, the Galilee in the north. The Romans vanquished the Galilee, and an estimated 100,000 Jews were killed or sold into slavery.
Throughout the Roman conquest of this territory, the Jewish leadership in Jerusalem did almost nothing to help their beleaguered brothers. They apparently had concluded - too late, unfortunately - that the revolt could not be won, and wanted to hold down Jewish deaths as much as possible.
The highly embittered refugees who succeeded in escaping the Galilean massacres fled to the last major Jewish stronghold - Jerusalem.
The scene was now set for the revolt's final catastrophe. Outside Jerusalem, Roman troops prepared to besiege the city; inside the city, the Jews were engaged in a suicidal civil war. In later generations, the rabbis hyperbolically declared that the revolt's failure and the Temple's destruction were due not to Roman military superiority but to causeless hatred (sinat khinam) among the Jews (Talmud, Yoma 9b). Though the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted.
We do know that some great figures of ancient Israel opposed the revolt, most notably Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai. Since the Zealot leaders ordered the execution of anyone advocating surrender to Rome, Rabbi Yochanan arranged for his disciples to smuggle him out of Jerusalem, disguised as a corpse. Once safe, he met the Roman general Vespasian, who granted him concessions that allowed Jewish communal life to continue.
During the summer of 70, the Romans breached the walls of Jerusalem and initiated an orgy of violence and destruction. Shortly thereafter, they destroyed the Second Temple. This was the final and most devastating Roman blow against Judea.
It is estimated that as many as one million Jews died in the Great Revolt against Rome. When people today speak of the almost two-thousand-year span of Jewish homelessness and exile, they are dating it from the failure of the revolt and the destruction of the Temple. Indeed, the Great Revolt of 66-70, and the Bar-Kokhba revolt some sixty years later, were the greatest calamities in Jewish history prior to the Holocaust. In addition to more that one million Jews killed, these failed rebellions led to the total loss of Jewish political authority in Israel until 1948. This loss in itself exacerbated the magnitude of later Jewish catastrophes, since it precluded Israel from being used as a refuge for the large numbers of Jews fleeing persecutions elsewhere.

The above is from the book Jewish Literacy by Rabbi Joseph Telushkin.

Joseph Telushkin is the author of several books, including The Book of Jewish Values: A Day By Day Guide to Ethical Living.

 

[annier]

Again? This is my first post on it.
And I would think that all books are written by someone. Where are the original OT or NT manuscripts? I may not understand your question.

The question concerns the speculation this is a fake. The original documents are never shown, just what was said in a book many centuries later. It could be real however I do not know. However, we do know the Jewish Sanhedrin granted by Rome after the destruction of the temple, mandated a curse on Christ and his followers to be recited during services. This curse was mandated for any, to share in the communal life and fellowship as a Jew. If this Constantine thing is true, maybe that is the reason why.

 

[Lovely Lane]

The question concerns the speculation this is a fake. The original documents are never shown, just what was said in a book many centuries later. It could be real however I do not know. However, we do know the Jewish Sanhedrin granted by Rome after the destruction of the temple, mandated a curse to be recited during services. This curse was mandated for any, to share in the communal life and fellowship as a Jew. If this Constantine thing is true, maybe that is the reason why.

It seems to me that there is a difference of a Jew worshiping as a Jew having a curse mandate as you say, compared to a Jew converting to Christianity as in what I posted.

 

[annier]

It seems to me that there is a difference of a Jew worshiping as a Jew having a curse mandate as you say, compared to a Jew converting to Christianity as in what I posted.

What would be the difference? The Rabbinate of that Sanhedrin had authority over matters of Judaism. They declared who was a Jew and who was not. They defined what Judaism taught and what Judaism was, under Roman law. Rome was like this with all the religions they made legal in the Empire. I just think there is some other issues to consider when we read things from history.

 

[Mikeb85]

Again? This is my first post on it.
And I would think that all books are written by someone. Where are the original OT or NT manuscripts? I may not understand your question.

If the only source for the OT and NT was a book written in 1934 by someone with a specific agenda, we'd have a problem.

Having a single, biased author as the only source for a quote which supports his own premise is not a valid source.

 

[Lovely Lane]

If the only source for the OT and NT was a book written in 1934 by someone with a specific agenda, we'd have a problem.

Having a single, biased author as the only source for a quote which supports his own premise is not a valid source.

How is the author biased and what is his agenda? Seems to me just another oath for the converting Jew to proclaim.

 

[Lovely Lane]

What would be the difference? The Rabbinate of that Sanhedrin had authority over matters of Judaism. They declared who was a Jew and who was not. They defined what Judaism taught and what Judaism was, under Roman law. Rome was like this with all the religions they made legal in the Empire. I just think there is some other issues to consider when we read things from history.

Exactly, the difference between Jews and Judaism and a converting Jew. Exactly which Rome are you speaking about?

 

[annier]

Exactly, the difference between Jews and Judaism and a converting Jew.

Not sure you understood, or if I misunderstand you.

Exactly which Rome are you speaking about?

I am talking about the roman empire and it's emperors which established the Sanhedrin at Yavneh (Jamnia) in 70 AD. This Rabbinate was given authority over Jews and Judaism. they defined what all those things were.

 

[annier]

How is the author biased and what is his agenda? Seems to me just another oath for the converting Jew to proclaim.

Does it matter to you if the quote attributed to Constantine in 325 ad is true?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The question concerns the speculation this is a fake. The original documents are never shown, just what was said in a book many centuries later. It could be real however I do not know. However, we do know the Jewish Sanhedrin granted by Rome after the destruction of the temple, mandated a curse on Christ and his followers to be recited during services. This curse was mandated for any, to share in the communal life and fellowship as a Jew. If this Constantine thing is true, maybe that is the reason why.

Did the Donation of Constantine arise out of that creed or is it the same thing?

The Failure of Daniel's Prophecies
Religious Forgeries


The Donation of Constantine is a forgery produced by eighth-century Catholic leaders to support the Popes' temporal claim to the Papal States of Italy and their spiritual claim to rule all Christendom. Emperor Constantine supposedly issued this decree early in the fourth century to donate the Papal States to Pope Sylvester I in gratitude for his miraculous cure from leprosy upon his baptism.[69]

The Donation of Constantine is one part of a much larger collection, the False Decretals. These documents are a collection of papal letters and decrees of church councils purportedly compiled by Saint Isidore of Seville around 600 AD. Many of the documents happen to be genuine. However, many of the letters, including all those dating from the first three centuries of the Church's existence, were forged to prove that the clergy have always had political rights that secular kings dare not interfere with.
The ninth-century pope Nicholas I declared the Decretals authoritative, and had them incorporated into the Canon Law of the Roman Catholic Church. Although the Church has admitted for some time that these works are forgeries, they were official Church documents for many centuries.[70]

 

[annier]

Did the Donation of Constantine arise out of that creed or is it the same thing?

The Failure of Daniel's Prophecies
Religious Forgeries


The Donation of Constantine is a forgery produced by eighth-century Catholic leaders to support the Popes' temporal claim to the Papal States of Italy and their spiritual claim to rule all Christendom. Emperor Constantine supposedly issued this decree early in the fourth century to donate the Papal States to Pope Sylvester I in gratitude for his miraculous cure from leprosy upon his baptism.[69]

The Donation of Constantine is one part of a much larger collection, the False Decretals. These documents are a collection of papal letters and decrees of church councils purportedly compiled by Saint Isidore of Seville around 600 AD. Many of the documents happen to be genuine. However, many of the letters, including all those dating from the first three centuries of the Church's existence, were forged to prove that the clergy have always had political rights that secular kings dare not interfere with.
The ninth-century pope Nicholas I declared the Decretals authoritative, and had them incorporated into the Canon Law of the Roman Catholic Church. Although the Church has admitted for some time that these works are forgeries, they were official Church documents for many centuries.[70]

I have no idea. But thanks for the other stuff.

 

[Standing Up]

yes, Rabbi joseph Telushkin mentions this in his book. It is recorded in Talmud. An excerpt of the story of the establishment of Yavneh.
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Featured Links Chabad.org Meaningful Life Bar Mitzvah Tutor Calendar Converter
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When Jerusalem Burned
By: Joseph Telushkin
At the beginning of the Common Era, a new group arose among the Jews: the Zealots (in Hebrew, Ka-na-im). These anti-Roman rebels were active for more than six decades, and later instigated the Great Revolt. Their most basic belief was that all means were justified to attain political and religious liberty.
The Jews' anti-Roman feelings were seriously exacerbated during the reign of the half-crazed emperor Caligula who, in the year 39, declared himself to be a deity and ordered his statue to be set up at every temple in the Roman Empire. The Jews, alone in the empire, refused the command; they would not defile God's Temple with a statue of pagan Rome's newest deity.
Caligula threatened to destroy the Temple, so a delegation of Jews was sent to pacify him. To no avail. Caligula raged at them, "So you are the enemies of the gods, the only people who refuse to recognize my divinity." Only the emperor's sudden, and violent death saved the Jews from wholesale massacre.
Caligula's action radicalized even the more moderate Jews. What assurance did they have, after all, that another Roman ruler would not arise and try to defile the Temple or destroy Judaism altogether? In addition, Caligula's sudden demise might have been interpreted as confirming the Zealots' belief that God would fight alongside the Jews if only they would have the courage to confront Rome.
In the decades after Caligula's death, Jews found their religion subject to periodic gross indignities, Roman soldiers exposing themselves in the Temple on one occasion and burning a Torah scroll on another.
Ultimately, the combination of financial exploitation, Rome's unbridled contempt for Judaism, and the unabashed favoritism that the Romans extended to gentiles living in Israel brought about the revolt.
In the year 66, Florus, the last Roman procurator, stole vast quantities of silver from the Temple. The outraged Jewish masses rioted and wiped out the small Roman garrison stationed in Jerusalem. Cestius Gallus, the Roman ruler in neighboring Syria, sent in a larger force of soldiers. But the Jewish insurgents routed them as well.
This was a heartening victory that had a terrible consequence: Many Jews suddenly became convinced that they could defeat Rome, and the Zealots' ranks grew geometrically. Never again, however, did the Jews achieve so decisive a victory.
When the Romans returned, they had 60,000 heavily armed and highly professional troops. They launched their first attack against the Jewish state's most radicalized area, the Galilee in the north. The Romans vanquished the Galilee, and an estimated 100,000 Jews were killed or sold into slavery.
Throughout the Roman conquest of this territory, the Jewish leadership in Jerusalem did almost nothing to help their beleaguered brothers. They apparently had concluded - too late, unfortunately - that the revolt could not be won, and wanted to hold down Jewish deaths as much as possible.
The highly embittered refugees who succeeded in escaping the Galilean massacres fled to the last major Jewish stronghold - Jerusalem.
The scene was now set for the revolt's final catastrophe. Outside Jerusalem, Roman troops prepared to besiege the city; inside the city, the Jews were engaged in a suicidal civil war. In later generations, the rabbis hyperbolically declared that the revolt's failure and the Temple's destruction were due not to Roman military superiority but to causeless hatred (sinat khinam) among the Jews (Talmud, Yoma 9b). Though the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted.
We do know that some great figures of ancient Israel opposed the revolt, most notably Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai. Since the Zealot leaders ordered the execution of anyone advocating surrender to Rome, Rabbi Yochanan arranged for his disciples to smuggle him out of Jerusalem, disguised as a corpse. Once safe, he met the Roman general Vespasian, who granted him concessions that allowed Jewish communal life to continue.
During the summer of 70, the Romans breached the walls of Jerusalem and initiated an orgy of violence and destruction. Shortly thereafter, they destroyed the Second Temple. This was the final and most devastating Roman blow against Judea.
It is estimated that as many as one million Jews died in the Great Revolt against Rome. When people today speak of the almost two-thousand-year span of Jewish homelessness and exile, they are dating it from the failure of the revolt and the destruction of the Temple. Indeed, the Great Revolt of 66-70, and the Bar-Kokhba revolt some sixty years later, were the greatest calamities in Jewish history prior to the Holocaust. In addition to more that one million Jews killed, these failed rebellions led to the total loss of Jewish political authority in Israel until 1948. This loss in itself exacerbated the magnitude of later Jewish catastrophes, since it precluded Israel from being used as a refuge for the large numbers of Jews fleeing persecutions elsewhere.

The above is from the book Jewish Literacy by Rabbi Joseph Telushkin.

Joseph Telushkin is the author of several books, including The Book of Jewish Values: A Day By Day Guide to Ethical Living.

The person who was smuggled out, was that Josephus? Or did he leave voluntarily?

But, you've not established that Rome set up the sanhedrin or the jamnia (sic?) council c90ad ...

 

[Lovely Lane]

Not sure you understood, or if I misunderstand you.

I am talking about the roman empire and it's emperors which established the Sanhedrin at Yavneh (Jamnia) in 70 AD. This Rabbinate was given authority over Jews and Judaism. they defined what all those things were.

I'm speaking about a few hundred years later, Constantine, 3rd century New Rome, and the conversion of a Jew.

 

[annier]

I'm speaking about a few hundred years later, Constantine, 3rd century New Rome, and the conversion of a Jew.

Still not getting it. What does a few hundred years later have to do with what Judaism was made?

 

[Mikeb85]

How is the author biased and what is his agenda? Seems to me just another oath for the converting Jew to proclaim.

Look at the title of his book. There's a clue...

Think about a thesis paper. If the 'proof' of your thesis is a quote that occurs only in say, your friend's thesis, is it really proof?

You can't say a citation is true just because someone else said it is, if you can't trace it back to the original source, or at least get a few 3rd party witnesses to agree that it's legitimate.

This is simple intellectual honesty. If I were to hand in a university paper citing his book as 'proof' that this creed existed, I'd get a zero...

 

[Lovely Lane]

Look at the title of his book. There's a clue...

Think about a thesis paper. If the 'proof' of your thesis is a quote that occurs only in say, your friend's thesis, is it really proof?

You can't say a citation is true just because someone else said it is, if you can't trace it back to the original source, or at least get a few 3rd party witnesses to agree that it's legitimate.

This is simple intellectual honesty. If I were to hand in a university paper citing his book as 'proof' that this creed existed, I'd get a zero...

Is this forum a professional debate thread or a class on college paper foot notes?
Hi Mike, it may be your view to seek authenticity of the writing, however, I took it for what it is and answered the OP question. Plus, there are many ancient writings in the EO early church fathers that have lost the original manuscripts and have been translated into Greek, Salvic/Russian, English. My English Philokalia is different from the original Greek and the original manuscripts have long been destroyed. But I believe what is written in it is pretty much accurate.

I'm not wasting time on historical research (nor are you), in answering a question that only requests an opinion. I am not a professional librarian or a information science specialist and neither are many others here. So, if those wish to answer the question in saying it's a fake or prove the authenticity, so be it. It would be up to the OP to provide proof, not me.


How many still believe this to be true?

"It is a simple question"

 

[Lovely Lane]

Still not getting it. What does a few hundred years later have to do with what Judaism was made?

I'm thinking that the Church was battling Jews,Judaizers/Minim, and many other apostates to include Christian heretics. And that the Jews rewrote the Septuagint to fraught Christainity and to the development of the Birkat haMinim, curse,
malediction

So, yes a few hundred years in early Christianity makes a big difference, unholy attacks were made against her repeatedly.


Birkat haMinim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia