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Considering Islam

Christianmilitaryofficer

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Please show me examples from Scripture to prove me wrong. Does John 1 not say the Word was with God and the Word was God? Were other people in the Bible worshiped? Did they say that those who have seen them have seen the Father? Did they say they will judge the nations?

Should not only God be worshiped? Will not only He judge nations? Who but God can be in nature God, and who could you look at but God to see God?

Please show me where the Bible disproves what I have said.

You don't seem to understand that the Bible was interpreted differently in the past, that it did not exist in the 1st century, and that there are huge swaths of history that SHOULD be employed in Biblical interpretation, but aren't. As it is, you should not even be reading the Bible, since it was the collection of the Catholic Church (and I am assured the time period was completely corrupt by other Christians here), and even Martin Luther questioned some of the books therein.
 
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Christianmilitaryofficer

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Shukran. Danke. Dziekuje. Djakuji. Merci. Gracias. Thank you. Arigato.

For pointing out the obvious. Hopefully more people will read this and see this 'news story' for the pile of #2 that it really is. There are enough good reasons for Christians and Muslims to disagree and debate without adding in propaganda that is most likely false to begin with.

I would not say false, it may have happened. It was just an example of sensationalism and the brazenly spectacular, than an actual source of comparative religious discussion.
 
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JJWhite

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What does verse 6:101 mean? It seems that Muhammad is suggesting that it is wrong to suggest God has a son, when He doesn't have a wife or consort, is that correct?
6_101.png
Sahih International
[He is] Originator of the heavens and the earth. How could He have a son when He does not have a companion and He created all things? And He is, of all things, Knowing.

Muhsin Khan
He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have children when He has no wife? He created all things and He is the All-Knower of everything.

Pickthall
The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a child, when there is for Him no consort, when He created all things and is Aware of all things?

Yusuf Ali
To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.

Shakir
Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth! How could He have a son when He has no consort, and He (Himself) created everything, and He is the Knower of all things.

Dr. Ghali
The Ever-Innovating of the heavens and the earth-however does He have a child, and He has no female companion, and He created everything, and He is Ever-Knowing of everything?

Not addressing Christianity...

But they have attributed to Allah partners - the jinn, while He has created them - and have fabricated for Him sons and daughters without knowledge. Exalted is He and high above what they describe. [He is] Originator of the heavens and the earth. How could He have a son when He does not have a companion and He created all things? And He is, of all things, Knowing. (6:100-101)
 
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TG123

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Not addressing Christianity...

But they have attributed to Allah partners - the jinn, while He has created them - and have fabricated for Him sons and daughters without knowledge. Exalted is He and high above what they describe. [He is] Originator of the heavens and the earth. How could He have a son when He does not have a companion and He created all things? And He is, of all things, Knowing. (6:100-101)
Salaam Alaikum. I looked at the tafsir of surahs 6:100-101 by Ibn Abbas, and in fact he claims that this is a reference to Christians and Jews. Ibn Jalayn claims it is a reference to Jews. Ibn Kathir claims it is a reference to Christians and Jews.

Muhammad here I think misunderstood the meaning of the term Son of God, for both how Christians see Jesus and sons and daughters of God for how Christians and Jews see people who choose to follow God.


Ibn Abbas
(Yet they ascribe as partners unto Him the jinn) they said: Allah, Exalted is He, and Satan are brothers and partners: Allah is the Creator of human beings, beasts and cattle while Satan is the Creator of snakes, scorpions and predatory beasts. This is the claim of the Magians, (although He did create them) and command them to declare His divine Oneness, (and impute falsely, without knowledge) without knowledge, argument or proof, (sons) as claimed by the Jews and Christians (and daughters unto Him) among the angels and idols, as claimed by the Arab idolaters. (Glorified be He) He has exonerated Himself from having children or partners (and high exalted) and He absolves Himself (above (all) that they ascribe (unto Him)) of sons and daughters.
(The Originator) the Creator (of the heavens and the earth!) He created them when they were nothing before such creation. (How can He have a child, when there is for Him no consort) no wife, (when He created all things and is Aware of all things) of all created beings?
Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ

Ibn Jalalayn
Yet they ascribe to God (li’Llāhi, the indirect object) as associates (shurakā’a, the direct object, which is substituted by [the following, al-jinn]) the jinn, since they obey them by worshipping graven images, even though He created them: so how can they be associates? And they falsely impute to Him (read kharaqū or kharraqū), that is, they invent, sons and daughters without any knowledge, saying, Ezra (‘Uzayr) is the son of God, and the angels are the daughters of God. Glory be to Him — an affirmation of His transcendence — and exalted be He above what they describe!, of Him having a child.
He is, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, which He originated uniquely without precedent; how should He have a son, when He has no consort, spouse, and He created everything, that was meant to be created, and He has knowledge of all things?
Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ


Tafsir Ibn Kathir
This Ayah refutes the idolators who worshipped others besides Allah and associated the Jinns with Him in worship. Glory be to Allah above this Shirk and Kufr. If someone asks, how did the idolators worship the Jinns, although they only were idol worshippers The answer is that in fact, they worshipped the idols by obeying the Jinns who commanded them to do so. Allah said in other Ayat,
﴿إِن يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِهِ إِلاَّ إِنَـثاً وَإِن يَدْعُونَ إِلاَّ شَيْطَـناً مَّرِيداً - لَّعَنَهُ اللَّهُ وَقَالَ لاّتَّخِذَنَّ مِنْ عِبَادِكَ نَصِيباً مَّفْرُوضاً - وَلأضِلَّنَّهُمْ وَلأُمَنِّيَنَّهُمْ وَلاّمُرَنَّهُمْ فَلَيُبَتِّكُنَّ ءَاذَانَ الاٌّنْعَـمِ وَلاّمُرَنَّهُمْ فَلَيُغَيِّرُنَّ خَلْقَ اللَّهِ وَمَن يَتَّخِذِ الشَّيْطَـنَ وَلِيّاً مِّن دُونِ اللَّهِ فَقَدْ خَسِرَ خُسْرَاناً مُّبِيناً - يَعِدُهُمْ وَيُمَنِّيهِمْ وَمَا يَعِدُهُمْ الشَّيْطَـنُ إِلاَّ غُرُوراً ﴾
(They invoke nothing but female deities besides Him, and they invoke nothing but Shaytan, a persistent rebel! Allah cursed him. And he ﴿Shaytan﴾ said: "I will take an appointed portion of your servants. Verily, I will mislead them, and surely, I will arouse in them false desires; and certainly, I will order them to slit the ears of cattle, and indeed I will order them to change the nature created by Allah.'' And whoever takes Shaytan as a protector instead of Allah, has surely suffered a manifest loss. He ﴿Shaytan﴾ makes promises to them, and arouses in them false desires; and Shaytan's promises are nothing but deceptions. ) ﴿4:117-120﴾ and,
﴿أَفَتَتَّخِذُونَهُ وَذُرِّيَّتَهُ أَوْلِيَآءَ مِن دُونِى﴾
(Will you then take him (Iblis) and his offspring as protectors and helpers rather than Me) ﴿18:50﴾ Ibrahim said to his father,
﴿يأَبَتِ لاَ تَعْبُدِ الشَّيْطَـنَ إِنَّ الشَّيْطَـنَ كَانَ لِلرَّحْمَـنِ عَصِيّاً ﴾
("O my father! Worship not Shaytan. Verily! Shaytan has been a rebel against the Most Beneficent (Allah).'') ﴿19:44﴾ Allah said,
﴿أَلَمْ أَعْهَدْ إِلَيْكُمْ يبَنِى ءَادَمَ أَن لاَّ تَعْبُدُواْ الشَّيطَـنَ إِنَّهُ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّ مُّبِينٌ - وَأَنِ اعْبُدُونِى هَـذَا صِرَطٌ مُّسْتَقِيمٌ ﴾
(Did I not ordain for you, O Children of Adam, that you should not worship Shaytan. Verily, he is a plain enemy to you. And that you should worship Me. That is a straight path.) ﴿36:60-61﴾ On the Day of Resurrection, the angels will proclaim,
﴿سُبْحَـنَكَ أَنتَ وَلِيُّنَا مِن دُونِهِمْ بَلْ كَانُواْ يَعْبُدُونَ الْجِنَّ أَكْـثَرُهُم بِهِم مُّؤْمِنُونَ﴾
(Glorified be You! You are our Protector instead of them. Nay, but they used to worship the Jinn; most of them were believers in them.) ﴿34:41﴾ This is why Allah said here,
﴿وَجَعَلُواْ للَّهِ شُرَكَآءَ الْجِنَّ وَخَلَقَهُمْ﴾
(Yet, they join the Jinns as partners in worship with Allah, though He has created them.) ﴿6:100﴾, Alone without partners. Consequently, how is it that another deity is being worshipped along with Him As Ibrahim said,
﴿قَالَ أَتَعْبُدُونَ مَا تَنْحِتُونَ - وَاللَّهُ خَلَقَكُمْ وَمَا تَعْمَلُونَ ﴾
("Worship you that which you (yourselves) carve While Allah has created you and what you make!'') ﴿37:95-96﴾ Allah alone is the Creator without partners. Therefore, He Alone deserves to be worshipped without partners. Allah said next,
﴿وَخَرَقُواْ لَهُ بَنِينَ وَبَنَاتٍ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ﴾
(And they Kharaqu (attribute falsely) without knowledge, sons and daughters to Him.) Allah mentions the misguidance of those who were led astray and claimed a son or offspring for Him, as the Jews did with `Uzayr, the Christians with `Isa and the Arab pagans with the angels whom they claimed were Allah's daughters. Allah is far holier than what the unjust, polytheist people associate with Him. The word, Kharaqu, means `falsely attributed, invented, claimed and lied', according to the scholars of the Salaf. Allah's statement next,
﴿سُبْحَـنَهُ وَتَعَـلَى عَمَّا يَصِفُونَ﴾
(Be He Glorified and Exalted above (all) that they attribute to Him.) means, He is holier than, hallowed, and Exalted above the sons, rivals, equals and partners that these ignorant, misled people attribute to Him.
﴿بَدِيعُ السَّمَـوَتِ وَالاٌّرْضِ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ تَكُنْ لَّهُ صَـحِبَةٌ وَخَلَقَ كُلَّ شَىْءٍ وهُوَ بِكُلِّ شَىْءٍ عَلِيمٌ ﴾
(101. He is the Badi` (Originator) of the heavens and the earth. How can He have children when He has no wife He created all things and He is the All-Knower of everything.)
(He is the Badi` of the heavens and the earth) Meaning He originated, created, invented and brought them into existence without precedence, as Mujahid and As-Suddi said. This is why the word for innovation - Bid`ah - comes from it, because it is something that did not have a precedence.
﴿أَنَّى يَكُونُ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ تَكُنْ لَّهُ صَـحِبَةٌ﴾
(How can He have children when He has no wife) for the child is the offspring of two compatible spouses. Allah does not have an equal, none of His creatures are similar to Him, for He alone created the entire creation. Allah said;
﴿وَقَالُواْ اتَّخَذَ الرَّحْمَـنُ وَلَداً - لَقَدْ جِئْتُمْ شَيْئاً إِدّاً ﴾
(And they say: "The Most Beneficent (Allah) has begotten a son.'' Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing.) ﴿19:88-89﴾, until,
﴿وَكُلُّهُمْ ءَاتِيهِ يَوْمَ الْقِيَـمَةِ فَرْداً ﴾
(And everyone of them will come to Him alone on the Day of Resurrection.)﴿19:95﴾.
﴿وَخَلَقَ كُلَّ شَىْءٍ وهُوَ بِكُلِّ شَىْءٍ عَلِيمٌ﴾
(He created all things and He is the All-Knower of everything.) He has created everything and He is All-Knower of all things. How can He have a wife from His creation who is suitable for His majesty, when there is none like Him How can He have a child then Verily, Allah is Glorified above having a son.
﴿ذلِكُمُ اللَّهُ رَبُّكُمْ لا إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ خَـلِقُ كُلِّ شَىْءٍ فَاعْبُدُوهُ وَهُوَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَىْءٍ وَكِيلٌ - لاَّ تُدْرِكُهُ الاٌّبْصَـرُ وَهُوَ يُدْرِكُ الاٌّبْصَـرَ وَهُوَ اللَّطِيفُ الْخَبِيرُ ﴾
(102. Such is Allah, your Lord! None has the right to be worshipped but He, the Creator of all things. So worship Him (alone), and He is the Guardian over all things.) (103. No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision. He is the Most Subtle, Well-Acquainted (with all things).)

Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Quran Tafsir - Rebuking the Idolators
 
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TG123

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You don't seem to understand that the Bible was interpreted differently in the past, that it did not exist in the 1st century, and that there are huge swaths of history that SHOULD be employed in Biblical interpretation, but aren't. As it is, you should not even be reading the Bible, since it was the collection of the Catholic Church (and I am assured the time period was completely corrupt by other Christians here), and even Martin Luther questioned some of the books therein.
The letters and Gospels did exist in the first century, and the ideas in them as well as quotes from them were widely alluded to by the church leaders in their letters. I was asked what is the difference between Jesus being the Son of God and others being called sons of God, by JJ. I responded to her questions by showing the difference in the Bible between the term Son of God for Jesus and the term son of God for other people. Martin Luther questioned some books in the Bible, he also called for the eradication of peasants who were rebelling against oppression and he had some horribly racist things to say about Jews. I don't see him as much of a spiritual authority, sorry.
 
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JJWhite

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Salaam Alaikum. I looked at the tafsir of surahs 6:100-101 by Ibn Abbas, and in fact he claims that this is a reference to Christians and Jews. Ibn Jalayn claims it is a reference to Jews. Ibn Kathir claims it is a reference to Christians and Jews.

Muhammad here I think misunderstood the meaning of the term Son of God, for both how Christians see Jesus and sons and daughters of God for how Christians and Jews see people who choose to follow God.

It doesn't make sense to me to be about that since the verse right before it is mentioning the Jinn thing. Not every last thing in commentary is gonna be right. The commentators were human. Kinda interesting how they just threw Jews (that heretical group) and Christians into the lump.
 
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TG123

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It doesn't make sense to me to be about that since the verse right before it is mentioning the Jinn thing. Not every last thing in commentary is gonna be right. The commentators were human. Kinda interesting how they just threw Jews (that heretical group) and Christians into the lump.
The commentators were human and are prone to error, but it is interesting that every one of them claimed that the Surah is a reference to Christians and Jews. Also, in another Surah, Muhammad chastised Christians and Jews specifically for calling themselves children of God. Given that, and the fact that all of the commentators mention it is about Jews and Christians as well as the pagans, I see no reason to assume it isn't the case.

Also, Ibn Abbas actually did know and spend time with Muhammad. They prayed together, and Ibn Abbas would follow him and memorize his teachings. He would help support him when he was an elderly man and had problems walking. It sounds like an awesome teacher-student relationship. After Muhammad passed away, Ibn Abbas would interview his closest friends. I think it is fair to assume that Ibn Abbas probably had the best grasp on the interpretation of Muhammad's teachings.

610 – 632: Muhammad's era

Ibn Abbas was born in 3 BH (618–619 CE) and his mother took him to Muhammad before he had begun to suckle. Muhammad put some of his saliva on the newborn's tongue, and that was the beginning of the close relationship between those two.[1]
While growing up, he was by Muhammad's side doing different services like fetching water for ablution (Arabic: wudu). He would pray (Arabic: salat) with Muhammad and follow him on his assemblies, journeys and expeditions. Muhammad would often draw him close, pat him on the shoulder and pray, "O God! Teach him (the knowledge of) the Book ",[9] and Ibn Abbas devoted his life to the pursuit of learning and knowledge. Ibn Abbas kept following Muhammad, memorizing and learning his teaching.[1]
Muhammad's statement

Main article: Hadith of the pen and paper
In AH 10 (631/632), Muhammad fell into his last illness. During this period, the Hadith of the pen and paper was reported, with Ibn Abbas as the first level narrator, at that time being ten to fifteen years old.[10] Ibn Abbas used to say, "No doubt, it was a great disaster that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing for them that writing because of their differences and noise." [11] Days after that, Ibn Abbas and Ali supported Muhammad's weight on their shoulder, as Muhammad was too weak to walk around on his own accord.[12]
`Abd Allah ibn `Abbas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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TG123

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It doesn't make sense to me to be about that since the verse right before it is mentioning the Jinn thing. Not every last thing in commentary is gonna be right. The commentators were human. Kinda interesting how they just threw Jews (that heretical group) and Christians into the lump.
The commentators were human and are prone to error, but it is interesting that every one of them claimed that the Surah is a reference to Christians and Jews. Also, in another Surah, Muhammad chastised Christians and Jews specifically for calling themselves children of God. Given that, and the fact that all of the commentators mention it is about Jews and Christians as well as the pagans, I see no reason to assume it isn't the case.

Also, Ibn Abbas actually did know and spend time with Muhammad. They prayed together, and Ibn Abbas would follow him and memorize his teachings. He would help support him when he was an elderly man and had problems walking. It sounds like an awesome teacher-student relationship. After Muhammad passed away, Ibn Abbas would interview his closest friends and would talk to as many as thirty people to verify a single matter. The extent of his research is I think quite impressive. I think it is fair to assume that Ibn Abbas probably had the best grasp on the interpretation of Muhammad's teachings.

610 – 632: Muhammad's era

Ibn Abbas was born in 3 BH (618–619 CE) and his mother took him to Muhammad before he had begun to suckle. Muhammad put some of his saliva on the newborn's tongue, and that was the beginning of the close relationship between those two.[1]
While growing up, he was by Muhammad's side doing different services like fetching water for ablution (Arabic: wudu). He would pray (Arabic: salat) with Muhammad and follow him on his assemblies, journeys and expeditions. Muhammad would often draw him close, pat him on the shoulder and pray, "O God! Teach him (the knowledge of) the Book ",[9] and Ibn Abbas devoted his life to the pursuit of learning and knowledge. Ibn Abbas kept following Muhammad, memorizing and learning his teaching.[1]
Muhammad's statement

Main article: Hadith of the pen and paper
In AH 10 (631/632), Muhammad fell into his last illness. During this period, the Hadith of the pen and paper was reported, with Ibn Abbas as the first level narrator, at that time being ten to fifteen years old.[10] Ibn Abbas used to say, "No doubt, it was a great disaster that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing for them that writing because of their differences and noise." [11] Days after that, Ibn Abbas and Ali supported Muhammad's weight on their shoulder, as Muhammad was too weak to walk around on his own accord.[12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/`Abd_Allah_ibn_`Abbas#cite_note-11
Continued education

After Muhammad's era, he continued to collect and learn Muhammad's teaching from Muhammad's companions (Arabic: Sahaba), specially those who knew him the longest. He would consult multiple Sahaba to confirm narrations, and would go to as many as thirty Companions to verify a single matter.[1] Once he heard that a Sahaba knew a hadith unknown to him.
`Abd Allah ibn `Abbas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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TG123

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btw... it looks like Ibn Kathir put the Jews and Christian thing as a comment on another verse under that verse explanation... maybe he's only trying to emphasize the 'invented' aspect.. not the rest of the theology
Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying when you write 'it looks like Ibn Kathir put the Jews and Christian thing as a comment on another verse under that verse explanation'... which verse is he referring to if not either surah 6:100 or 6:101?

(And they Kharaqu (attribute falsely) without knowledge, sons and daughters to Him.) Allah mentions the misguidance of those who were led astray and claimed a son or offspring for Him, as the Jews did with `Uzayr, the Christians with `Isa and the Arab pagans with the angels whom they claimed were Allah's daughters.

I think Ibn Kathir is saying that the part And they Kharaqu (attribute falsely) without knowledge, sons and daughters to Him. refers to Christians, Jews, and the pagan Arabs. He provides very specific examples of Ezra (as to whom I have yet to found proof was worshiped by Jews or considered the Son of God), Jesus (who Christians believe to be the Son of God) and the angels who the Arab pagans believed were God's daughters.
 
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JJWhite

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Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying when you write 'it looks like Ibn Kathir put the Jews and Christian thing as a comment on another verse under that verse explanation'... which verse is he referring to if not either surah 6:100 or 6:101?

(And they Kharaqu (attribute falsely) without knowledge, sons and daughters to Him.) Allah mentions the misguidance of those who were led astray and claimed a son or offspring for Him, as the Jews did with `Uzayr, the Christians with `Isa and the Arab pagans with the angels whom they claimed were Allah's daughters.

I think Ibn Kathir is saying that the part And they Kharaqu (attribute falsely) without knowledge, sons and daughters to Him. refers to Christians, Jews, and the pagan Arabs. He provides very specific examples of Ezra (as to whom I have yet to found proof was worshiped by Jews or considered the Son of God), Jesus (who Christians believe to be the Son of God) and the angels who the Arab pagans believed were God's daughters.

You're right there... I must have been tired last night and thought that the commentary was on 101... yes, that comment of his is on verse 100.

My point was that perhaps the commentators were mentioning the Jews and Christians in terms of the 'invention' aspect and only that aspect.

I've already discussed the other verse about those being chastised for being called sons of God... it's addressing the mentality of something like, "I'm baptised, therefore I am a son of God, therefore I'm special and have no worries"... or "I'm Jewish, so I'm chosen, my people are sons of God and thus we are special and have nothing to worry about".. and it can apply to anyone who thinks they're all that and have a monopoly on a relationship with God... the verse refutes the claim by saying, "YOU ARE HUMAN BEINGS" created just like everybody else... what makes you so special?

I highly respect Ibn 'Abbaas's opinions. The prophet prayed for him to have knowledge of interpretation. There are ahadith with Ibn 'Abbaas riding behind Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the prophet giving him advice. (He was about 12 or so when Prophet Muhammad passed away). I don't take his word as final though.. and also I'd have to investigate source attribution and stuff. Finally, our history books say that Ibn 'Abbaas was married to a Kitaabiyyah and his in-laws were all Kitaabis. That means his wife was a Jew or Christian. He is our top narrator of stories related from Judaeo-Christian sources. It seems highly unlikely that of all people HE wouldn't know what he was talking about when it comes to that.
 
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TG123

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You're right there... I must have been tired last night and thought that the commentary was on 101... yes, that comment of his is on verse 100.

My point was that perhaps the commentators were mentioning the Jews and Christians in terms of the 'invention' aspect and only that aspect.

I've already discussed the other verse about those being chastised for being called sons of God... it's addressing the mentality of something like, "I'm baptised, therefore I am a son of God, therefore I'm special and have no worries"... or "I'm Jewish, so I'm chosen, my people are sons of God and thus we are special and have nothing to worry about".. and it can apply to anyone who thinks they're all that and have a monopoly on a relationship with God... the verse refutes the claim by saying, "YOU ARE HUMAN BEINGS" created just like everybody else... what makes you so special?

I highly respect Ibn 'Abbaas's opinions. The prophet prayed for him to have knowledge of interpretation. There are ahadith with Ibn 'Abbaas riding behind Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the prophet giving him advice. (He was about 12 or so when Prophet Muhammad passed away). I don't take his word as final though.. and also I'd have to investigate source attribution and stuff. Finally, our history books say that Ibn 'Abbaas was married to a Kitaabiyyah and his in-laws were all Kitaabis. That means his wife was a Jew or Christian. He is our top narrator of stories related from Judaeo-Christian sources. It seems highly unlikely that of all people HE wouldn't know what he was talking about when it comes to that.

Thanks JJ for the response. No worries, sometimes I get really tired writing these responses and make mistakes too. We are all human, and made in God's likeness and image but unlike Him, imperfect.

I agree that there are Jews and Christians who have and who do act arrogantly and believe they and no one else is special and worthy of God's love. That is very wrong. There are people who I want to shake and yell at "GET OFF THE HIGH THRONE, BUDDY! YOU ARE A HUMAN BEING TOO!" Arrogant Christians are not following their faith, neither are arrogant Jews or arrogant Muslims, for that matter.

I don't follow what you mean the comment was only on the 'invention' aspect. To me it sounds like the 'How could He have a Son' comment is directed at Christians and Jews specifically, since the pagans believed He had daughers.

However, according to the tafsirs, arrogance on part of the Jews and Christians wasn't the problem, and it wasn't for that reason that they were rebuked. The Jews and Christians in these verses were not saying that only they were loved by God or that only they are His children, they were saying that they are loved by Him and that they are His sons and daughters. There is no record of them here saying this applies only to them. There is also no record of them saying that they have no worries because of their faith.

They said that God takes care of them. What is wrong with that? I believe that God has done very many good things for me in my life, but that does not make me think I am better than anyone else. It makes me more grateful to Him. Would you not agree that God takes care of you?

They did say they follow His religion, but don't Muslims believe that too? Furthermore, there is no record in these tafsirs of them saying they are the only ones who do so.



Ibn Abbas

(The Jews) the Jews of Medina (and Christians) the Christians of Najran (say: We are sons of Allah) we are the sons and prophets of Allah (and His loved ones) who follow His religion; it is also said that this means: we follow Allah's religion as if we were His sons and loved ones; and it is said that this means: we are to Allah like His sons and we are followers of His religion. (Say) to the Jews, O Muhammad; (Why then doth He chastise you for your sins) due to worshipping the calf for 40 days, if you are like sons to Him; have you ever seen a father torturing his sons with fire? (Nay, ye are but mortals) created servants (of His creating) like all His other created beings. (He forgiveth whom He will) whoever repents of Judaism and Christianity, (and chastiseth whom He will) whoever dies professing Judaism or Christianity. (Allah's is the Sovereignty) the stores (of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them) of created beings and marvels, (and unto Him is the journeying) returning to Him is the end result of those who believe and those who do not.
Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ

The Jews and Christians, both of them, say: ‘We are the sons of God, that is, [we are] like his sons in terms of closeness and rank, and He is like a father to us in terms of compassion and care, and His beloved ones’. Say, to them, O Muhammad (s): ‘Why then does He chastise you for your sins?, if what you say is true. For, the father does not punish his son, nor the loving his beloved; but He has punished you, and therefore you are saying lies. Nay; you are mortals from among, all, those, mortals, He created, you shall be rewarded as they are rewarded and you shall be requited as they are requited. He forgives, him for, whom He wills, forgiveness, and He chastises, him for, whom He wills’, chastisement, and there can be no objection thereto. For to God belongs the kingdom of the heavens and of the earth, and all that is between them; to Him is the journey’s end, the [final] return.
Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ


Allah then refutes the Christians' and Jews' false claims and lies,
﴿وَقَالَتِ الْيَهُودُ وَالنَّصَـرَى نَحْنُ أَبْنَاءُ اللَّهِ وَأَحِبَّاؤُهُ﴾
(And the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of Allah and His loved ones.") They claim: "We are the followers of Allah's Prophets, who are His children, whom He takes care of. He also loves us.'' The People of the Book claim in their Book that Allah said to His servant Isra'il, "You are my firstborn.'' But they explained this statement in an improper manner and altered its meaning. Some of the People of the Book who later became Muslims refuted this false statement saying, "This statement only indicates honor and respect, as is common in their speech at that time.'' The Christians claim that `Isa said to them, "I will go back to my father and your father,'' meaning, my Lord and your Lord. It is a fact that the Christians did not claim that they too are Allah's sons as they claimed about `Isa. Rather this statement by `Isa only meant to indicate a closeness with Allah. This is why when they said that they are Allah's children and loved ones, Allah refuted their claim,
Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Quran Tafsir - Refuting the People of the Book's Claim that they are Allah's Children



According to the tafsirs, they said that they are God's children and that they follow God, and that God loves them. Muhammad responded by asking them how can that be the case, if God punishes them.

Actually, I will demonstrate why I think that question was not a good one to ask. In the New Testament, it is written that God chastises those whom He loves.

Hebrews 12:5-7

5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?

Asking Christians how they can call themselves God's sons if God punishes them makes little sense to me, since in the Bible it is clearly stated that God disciplines those He loves, like a father would discipline his son. The word "chastised" is actually the Greek word "scourge" which means a whipping, a very painful punishment indeed!

In the Old Testament as well, it is written that God disciplines those He loves.

Proverbs 3:11-12
11 My son, do not despise the Lord's discipline
or be weary of his reproof,
12 for the Lord reproves him whom he loves,
as a father the son in whom he delights.


Trying to prove to a Christian or Jew that he or she is not a child of God because God punishes them in my opinion shows a misunderstanding of the Christians' or Jews' faith.

It would be like asking a Muslim "how can you say you follow God's religion when God gives you trials to endure"? In Islam, as well as in Christianity and in Judaism, God gives trials to His followers. Telling a Muslim or Christian or Jew that God gives them trials or telling a Christian or Jew that God punishes them only reinforces what they believe about God.

Interesting information about Ibn Abbas' wife. Was she a Jew or a Christian? However, I don't see how this would be relevant to his interpretations of Muhammads' writings in the Quran. If I am correct, Ibn Abbas' tafsirs are commentary on what Muhammad taught, not on what his wife believed.


Good discussing with you as always, I hope you are doing well. Allahma3k.
 
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JJWhite

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Kinda busy, but if there was a conflict between what Muhammad taught and what Ibn 'Abbaas experienced, I don't think he'd be teaching it. Not sure if his wife was Jewish or Christian... my best guess would be Jewish, but I have no way to tell. It just says Kitaabiyyah as far as I know.

What I meant is that the issue of consort does not necessarily apply to a Jews or Christian's belief. The commentators may have mentioned those two groups as examples of groups of people who invented a son for God.. i.e. claiming that God had a son when He does not..

Also note.. the Qur'aan does generalize labels when only certain individuals or sub-groups were being referenced. It appears that that was culturally acceptable in the language of the time. We can see an example of that when ONE JEWISH MAN said that God was stingy and a verse was revealed saying that the Jews said it... commentators say that all the Jews of the locality were chastised because they didn't rebuke the man for what he said. One has to study to know that it was never intended that that was something all Jews actually say.
 
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TG123

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Kinda busy, but if there was a conflict between what Muhammad taught and what Ibn 'Abbaas experienced, I don't think he'd be teaching it. Not sure if his wife was Jewish or Christian... my best guess would be Jewish, but I have no way to tell. It just says Kitaabiyyah as far as I know.

What I meant is that the issue of consort does not necessarily apply to a Jews or Christian's belief. The commentators may have mentioned those two groups as examples of groups of people who invented a son for God.. i.e. claiming that God had a son when He does not..

Also note.. the Qur'aan does generalize labels when only certain individuals or sub-groups were being referenced. It appears that that was culturally acceptable in the language of the time. We can see an example of that when ONE JEWISH MAN said that God was stingy and a verse was revealed saying that the Jews said it... commentators say that all the Jews of the locality were chastised because they didn't rebuke the man for what he said. One has to study to know that it was never intended that that was something all Jews actually say.
Salaam Alaikum. I think the fact that the word used was "son" or "sons" depending on the translation means that Christians and/or Jews were being referenced to.

I understand what you are saying about generalizations, but I don't think that speaks well of the Quran to make such statements. Generalized statements about any group of people are usually inaccurate, especially when based on the words or actions of only one person. It would be like saying "Muslims mock Christians for their beliefs", based on the words of some posters on a Muslim forum I used to post on, or like saying "Muslims set off bombs in churches" based on the actions of a few extremists. Even if it is understood by some to refer to only some individuals, the statement is false. And negative generalizations completely downplay or ignore the good things the people in the described group do.

Hope you have a good day and the summer is going well. Take care :)
 
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JJWhite

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Salaam Alaikum. I think the fact that the word used was "son" or "sons" depending on the translation means that Christians and/or Jews were being referenced to.

I understand what you are saying about generalizations, but I don't think that speaks well of the Quran to make such statements. Generalized statements about any group of people are usually inaccurate, especially when based on the words or actions of only one person. It would be like saying "Muslims mock Christians for their beliefs", based on the words of some posters on a Muslim forum I used to post on, or like saying "Muslims set off bombs in churches" based on the actions of a few extremists. Even if it is understood by some to refer to only some individuals, the statement is false. And negative generalizations completely downplay or ignore the good things the people in the described group do.

Hope you have a good day and the summer is going well. Take care :)

I fully understand why you might hold that opinion regarding negative generalizations. Today's cultural norms make it something I would try to avoid in my speech too. I just recognize that it was the norm in speech at that time, and it serves some point, and that it's something that one needs to pay attention to when reading and studying the text.
 
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Sister of Faith

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Islam is fine, but not a lot of fun. No drawings of created objects, no music (i think?), no alcohol. They have hippy-dippy sects but then why even bother.


Before you go off and join a mosque, I do suggest you read the Qu'ran. Not because its particularly violent, but just because it is exceptionally dull. There is no narrative like the OT, just the disconnected ramblings of a sensual epileptic.

I have been reading the Quran since I started this thread and, unfortunately, I have to agree with you.

If this is the case then why do Muslims cry when they are reciting Al Fatiha (Chapter 1) although they are reciting it more than 31 thousand time a year??!!
Sorry but you never read the Quran but just a translation which is a man made and I advice you to go for the Divine language.
 
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TG123

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I fully understand why you might hold that opinion regarding negative generalizations. Today's cultural norms make it something I would try to avoid in my speech too. I just recognize that it was the norm in speech at that time, and it serves some point, and that it's something that one needs to pay attention to when reading and studying the text.
I think we have to agree to disagree on that, my friend. :) I think if a book is universal and meant to be read and understood throughout the ages, its author should have known not to use forms of speech like negative generalizations which in the future (and throughout most of human history) has been used in a very negative and often harmful fashion.
 
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TG123

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If this is the case then why do Muslims cry when they are reciting Al Fatiha (Chapter 1) although they are reciting it more than 31 thousand time a year??!!
Sorry but you never read the Quran but just a translation which is a man made and I advice you to go for the Divine language.
I enjoy listening to some parts of the Quran... "bismillah al rahman al raheem"... in the name of God most gracious, most merciful" is a very beautiful phrase indeed. I don't agree that Arabic is a divine language, it is quite a nice language and I enjoyed studying it but I don't think it is any better or worse than any other language. Spanish sounds also beautiful and melodic, as does Russian.

Muslims cry when they recite parts of the Quran probably for the same reason why I have seen Orthodox Jews cry in Israel when hunched over their Torahs and reading it... they believe God's words are contained therein and the beauty they sense brings tears to their eyes.

Psalm 23 brings tears to my eyes sometimes and I am a person who cries rarely, whether I read it in English or Polish.
 
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