Consider these verses...

[Reformationist]

Hello everyone. I have been reading a wonderful book on reformed doctrine and it made me curious how the members of this forum would address the questions that the auther asked.

So, if you decide that you wish to participate in another limited atonement thread all I ask is that you ONLY SELECT TWO OF THE ABOVE OPTIONS. When voting in this poll please consider these Scriptures:

John 10:14
I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.

John 10:15
As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

John 10:26
But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

John 10:27
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Thanks,
God bless

 

[JVAC]

Woo Hoo that is my kind of voting, I count for 100%!!

Anyways I say nuts to Limited Atonement, Christ died so that we all might be vivified in him!!

 

[Reformationist]

Woo Hoo that is my kind of voting, I count for 100%!!

Anyways I say nuts to Limited Atonement, Christ died so that we all might be vivified in him!!

I noticed that you did not answer the first part of the thread, i.e, who are God's sheep?

Maybe you could do that now. Do you think His sheep consists of the elect (believers) or every person ever created?

Thanks JVAC,
God bless

 

[Isaiah 53]

I answered that God's sheep are His elect. But I do not believe in the Calvinist view of 'elect'. God foreknows who will choose Him, He does not select who will or will not be saved. That choice is ours.

PEACE IN CHRIST!!!

 

[JVAC]

It is a tricky question. However, I think we are all sheep, but most of them scatter and go astray (Ps 74:1 here it says sheep of your own pasture, which leads one to conclude there are sheep of other pastures). Further, the old testament usually declares the Israelites to be the sheep of God. Matt 10:6 confirms this when he says "lost sheep of Israel" (Matt 15:24).

Then there are other refferences as you said. So surely Christ uses differen't metaphors in different teachings. If I answer one way then I would reject certain teachings and if I answer the other way I would reject still other teachings.

So I must take by a case by case, parable by parable. I cannot generalize.

 

[countrymousenc]

John 10:14
I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
John 10:27
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Christ knows His own sheep, and His sheep know Him and recognize His voice and follow Him. Therefore, if there are/have been people who did not recognize His voice and follow Him, some people are His sheep and some are not.

Also consider these verses:
John 6:37

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 6:44-45

Do not murmer among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise Him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, "And they will all be taught by God." Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

John 8:42-47

Jesus said to them [some Jewish leaders who were arguing with Him] "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your Father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, becuase there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God."

Nowhere in the Holy Scriptures will we find God commanding anyone not to believe! The commandment is always, "Believe." Jesus also promised that He will not turn away anyone who does believe. There is no inconsistency or contradiction between election and this promise. These things are there for our comfort. But when Jesus confronted unbelievers, He knew them to be unbelievers, and He knew why they didn't believe.

Do you recall something God said to the Serpent? Genesis 3:15

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; ...

 

[BBAS 64]

It is a tricky question. However, I think we are all sheep, but most of them scatter and go astray (Ps 74:1 here it says sheep of your own pasture, which leads one to conclude there are sheep of other pastures). Further, the old testament usually declares the Israelites to be the sheep of God. Matt 10:6 confirms this when he says "lost sheep of Israel" (Matt 15:24).

Good Day, JVAC

One question if I might on the use of sheep, and to be clear I am not a shepard. The shepard will allways go and retreive the sheep that are under his care no matter the cost to the shepard. I understand that sheep can go a stray for many different reasons, But the duty of the shepard is to go and find them bring them back to the fold as so they can not be lost. the shepard will not lose his sheep.

Then there are other refferences as you said. So surely Christ uses differen't metaphors in different teachings. If I answer one way then I would reject certain teachings and if I answer the other way I would reject still other teachings.

So I must take by a case by case, parable by parable. I cannot generalize.

I agree here but in the case of sheep you must understand the role of the shepard and the inabilty of the sheep.


Peace to u,

Bill

 

[JVAC]

By coincidence, I myself am or actually was a Shepherd. My parents have a ranch that we used to raise horses, but now have sheep instead. Let me tell you it is much easier raising sheep with a fence, however, you still get sheep that are taken from you, by bandits and wild animals. You still get sheep that find a hole and takes off.

I know you probably have in mind that parrable of the ninety-nine sheep that the shepherd leaves for the one. I agree in this, yet when the flock gets to tens of thousands, no shepherd in thier right mind would leave for one.

When you are shepherding you have choice sheep that you particularly look out for, say your prize rams who will give you the best breed. Also you have the less valuable ones, the wethers (castrated rams) who's sole purpose is just to get fat and ready to eat. If the ram gets lost you will pursue it because your flock will suffer greatly with its loss, however, if you were to loose the wether then you wouldn't because even though it was a big meal, it was pretty much valuless in terms of your flock.

This analogy does have some problems, and that is why I want it to be broken down case by case, I hope I have shown it more clear, if not I can try again later.

-James

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, Don

What book are you reading?

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

By coincidence, I myself am or actually was a Shepherd. My parents have a ranch that we used to raise horses, but now have sheep instead. Let me tell you it is much easier raising sheep with a fence, however, you still get sheep that are taken from you, by bandits and wild animals. You still get sheep that find a hole and takes off.

Good Day, James

Well I am some what at a disadvange here as I am a city boy There is no dout in my mind that there are some limts on how far I could take this anallogy[sp].

I know you probably have in mind that parrable of the ninety-nine sheep that the shepherd leaves for the one. I agree in this, yet when the flock gets to tens of thousands, no shepherd in thier right mind would leave for one.

Yes , I would agree that a flock could very easy over come the limts of the shepard based upon it's numbers. But I would suggest that 99 sheep back in that day was seen as unmanagable by the shepards then.

If the flock of Christ was 10 million, I belive he can and will track the one sheep down as not to losse what the father had given him. He is the good shepard, not a good shepard but THE good shepard.

When you are shepherding you have choice sheep that you particularly look out for, say your prize rams who will give you the best breed. Also you have the less valuable ones, the wethers (castrated rams) who's sole purpose is just to get fat and ready to eat. If the ram gets lost you will pursue it because your flock will suffer greatly with its loss, however, if you were to loose the wether then you wouldn't because even though it was a big meal, it was pretty much valuless in terms of your flock.

We as His sheep are "CHOICE" to him, it was for us "CHOOSEN" he died.


Fatted Lambs!! Soup TIME!!

This analogy does have some problems, and that is why I want it to be broken down case by case, I hope I have shown it more clear, if not I can try again later.
-James

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Reformationist]

It is a tricky question. However, I think we are all sheep, but most of them scatter and go astray (Ps 74:1 here it says sheep of your own pasture, which leads one to conclude there are sheep of other pastures). Further, the old testament usually declares the Israelites to be the sheep of God. Matt 10:6 confirms this when he says "lost sheep of Israel" (Matt 15:24).

Then there are other refferences as you said. So surely Christ uses differen't metaphors in different teachings. If I answer one way then I would reject certain teachings and if I answer the other way I would reject still other teachings.

So I must take by a case by case, parable by parable. I cannot generalize.

Okay. So how do you think "sheep" is used in these verses:

John 10:14,15
I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

The thing that is very clear to me is that right after Jesus' admission that He lays down His life for His sheep He makes it clear that the Jews that were in the vicinity that asked Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." His response was clearly to show that they, those who were questioning Him, were not His sheep:

"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Both of these quotes are used in the same chapter of the same book only eleven verses apart and speaking of the same message. If you feel that you must isolate it I would agree. However, you cannot rightly isolate verses 14 and 15 from 26 and 27. In verses 14 and 15 Christ says that He knows who His sheep are and it is for them that He lays down His life. He is clear, very clear, that He is distinguishing between His sheep and those who are not His sheep, which are the ones He speaks of in verses 26 and 27. This is about as clear as the Bible gets. 14 & 15, I know my sheep, they know me. 26 & 27, you don't believe because you're not my sheep. That's about as clear as it gets in the Bible JVAC. How do you feel about those verses?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Reformationist]

By coincidence, I myself am or actually was a Shepherd. My parents have a ranch that we used to raise horses, but now have sheep instead. Let me tell you it is much easier raising sheep with a fence, however, you still get sheep that are taken from you, by bandits and wild animals. You still get sheep that find a hole and takes off.

I know you probably have in mind that parrable of the ninety-nine sheep that the shepherd leaves for the one. I agree in this, yet when the flock gets to tens of thousands, no shepherd in thier right mind would leave for one.

When you are shepherding you have choice sheep that you particularly look out for, say your prize rams who will give you the best breed. Also you have the less valuable ones, the wethers (castrated rams) who's sole purpose is just to get fat and ready to eat. If the ram gets lost you will pursue it because your flock will suffer greatly with its loss, however, if you were to loose the wether then you wouldn't because even though it was a big meal, it was pretty much valuless in terms of your flock.

This analogy does have some problems, and that is why I want it to be broken down case by case, I hope I have shown it more clear, if not I can try again later.

-James

As informative and interesting as this post was James, how did it relate to the discussion? It just seems to be about the job of shepherding. You call it an analogy but I fail to see the comparison or point you are making. Are you saying that some are more important to Christ than others?

Could you explain what you mean by this analogy?

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Good Day, Don

What book are you reading?

Bill

Hey Bill. It's short little book, quick reading, but very sound. It is called TULIP and it is written by a gentleman name Duane Edward Spencer. If you find it I advise you to read it. It's very well written. It's only about 80 pages long though but definitely worth the small amount of time it will take to read it.

God bless

 

[JVAC]

Okay. So how do you think "sheep" is used in these verses:

John 10:14,15
I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

The thing that is very clear to me is that right after Jesus' admission that He lays down His life for His sheep He makes it clear that the Jews that were in the vicinity that asked Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." His response was clearly to show that they, those who were questioning Him, were not His sheep:

"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Both of these quotes are used in the same chapter of the same book only eleven verses apart and speaking of the same message. If you feel that you must isolate it I would agree. However, you cannot rightly isolate verses 14 and 15 from 26 and 27. In verses 14 and 15 Christ says that He knows who His sheep are and it is for them that He lays down His life. He is clear, very clear, that He is distinguishing between His sheep and those who are not His sheep, which are the ones He speaks of in verses 26 and 27. This is about as clear as the Bible gets. 14 & 15, I know my sheep, they know me. 26 & 27, you don't believe because you're not my sheep. That's about as clear as it gets in the Bible JVAC. How do you feel about those verses?

Thanks,
God bless

In those verses I could consede that when the author wrote that portion he viewed sheep as followers of Christ. However, it is not limited to that one deffinition. That is my main point, whereas it may have that deffinition here it won't hold in other stories. I don't wish to give the deffinition of God's Sheep are those who follow Christ because it is too broad.

I think you can see my point.

-James

 

[JVAC]

As informative and interesting as this post was James, how did it relate to the discussion? It just seems to be about the job of shepherding. You call it an analogy but I fail to see the comparison or point you are making. Are you saying that some are more important to Christ than others?

Could you explain what you mean by this analogy?

God bless

When I was talking about analogy I meant the view of people as sheep. The analogy calling followers "God's Sheep" is one instance, granted it might be a long instance in the tenth chapter of St. John's Gospel, yet it is one instance.

There are other analogies that refer to Israel as "God's Sheep" and still yet other refferences. To define this term which is used in several different biblical analogies (metaphors, which is probably a better word now that I think about it, but I am not an english major) with one broad hit, you will get a tainted view.

-James

 

[Reformationist]

In those verses I could consede that when the author wrote that portion he viewed sheep as followers of Christ. However, it is not limited to that one deffinition.

Do you mean you don't believe it to be limited to that one definition in this section of Scripture or in Scripture as a whole. If you mean Scripture as a whole I would tell you that I have not studied the numerous varied uses of the term but would be inclined to agree. However, I'm am curious if you know of a place that the term "sheep" is used to describe "all people."

If, however, you mean that you don't think "sheep" is refering to believers in this section of Scripture I would encourage you to read it again. Christ is veeery clear as to who He is refering to when using the term "sheep" in this section.

That is my main point, whereas it may have that deffinition here it won't hold in other stories.

Nor does it need to "hold" in other stories. In this section of Scripture Christ is quite plain in what He's saying. In essence, you people (the elect) are my sheep. I laid my life down for you. You people (the reprobate) are not my sheep, therefore, I did not lay my life down for you.

In this isolated section of Scripture would you disagree that that is what Christ is saying? If so, please provide contextual evidence that Christ is intimating that He laid His life down for all people when you concede that in this instance, where He says "I lay my life down for the sheep," He means only the followers of Christ. You have already agreed that when He says "sheep" He means, in this portion of Scripture, "followers of Christ." Christ plainly says, "I lay my life down for the sheep." That is the same as saying, "I lay my life down for my followers." He is distinguishing between those He laid His life down for, i.e., His followers, from those He did not, i.e., those who are not His sheep.

I don't wish to give the deffinition of God's Sheep are those who follow Christ because it is too broad.

Okay, well, show me an instance where it includes people who don't follow Christ.

I think you can see my point.

-James

If your point is that Christ doesn't use the label "sheep" in the exact same manner every time then, yes, I see your point. However, I was never contending otherwise. My point is that "sheep" is always used to refer to those who belong to the Good Shepard. It is never used to refer to humanity as a whole, that I'm aware of. If you do know of an instance, please share it with me.

God bless

 

[theseed]

Alright, more discussion about John's Gospel

 

[theseed]

Hello everyone. I have been reading a wonderful book on reformed doctrine and it made me curious how the members of this forum would address the questions that the auther asked.

So, if you decide that you wish to participate in another limited atonement thread all I ask is that you ONLY SELECT TWO OF THE ABOVE OPTIONS. When voting in this poll please consider these Scriptures:

John 10:14
I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.

John 10:15
As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

John 10:26
But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

John 10:27
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Thanks,
God bless

From here, you have to establish that God did not intend for everyone to believe, otherwise the Pharisees could believe still yet, and they would become His sheep. I say we are not His sheep until we here is voice, thus Christ could lay hid life down for those who will beleive as well. And it may be that God intends for all to believe.

Here the Pharisees are exhorted to believe.

John 10
37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

And here, we read that God wants all to believe. Emphasis mine.


3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time.
h

 

[Reformationist]

From here, you have to establish that God did not intend for everyone to believe, otherwise the Pharisees could believe still yet, and they would become His sheep.

I absolutely do not need to make a concession of that sort. Even you don't make that concession. You say, "I say we are not His sheep until we here is voice, thus Christ could lay hid life down for those who will beleive as well."

I agree with this. However, you go on to completely confuse the point you just made by saying, "And it may be that God intends for all to believe."

Do you understand why this is so confusing? On the one hand you say that we are not His sheep until we believe. Clearly you interpret the use of this word in a way that limits it's subject to only those who believe/will believe. Then you go on to make a complete 180 degree turn and say it may be everyone. Which is it, believers or everyone? If you think it's everyone, how do you explain Christ's address of those who are not His sheep:

John 10:26
But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

You see, this thread isn't about what God intended, per se. I asked, "who are God's sheep" and "for whom did Christ die." It is quite plain in the 10th chapter of John that "sheep" is either a reference to every single person ever created or it is a reference to those that believe. This thread isn't about what God intended so I don't need to establish what God did not intend. Please stop trying to change the topic of this thread. All I asked was, "who do you think are the sheep of God," and "for whom did Christ die." Now, I thought my intent was clear that I was asking about the usage of the term "sheep" in John 10 and how it related to the extent of the atonement. However, it was shown that I wasn't very clear early on in the thread. My apologies.

So, I'll try to make it clearer. When you read the verses in John 10 that I posted, what do you take "sheep" to mean? And also, since verse 15 says that Christ lays His life down for His sheep and then in verse 26 He addresses people who are not His sheep, it seems clear that, at least in the context of John 10 Jesus is not using the label "sheep" in a universal manner. And considering the fact that He clarifies for whom He laid down His life, i.e, His sheep, how do you understand this as it relates to Christ's atonement?

seed, as to the rest of your post, all I can say is, it's off topic. I'm not asking who was exhorted to believe. All humankind was told to believe. I'm asking about Christ's usage of the term "sheep" in John 10 and how it relates to the extent of His atonement.

Thanks,
God bless

 

[theseed]

at least in the context of John 10 Jesus is not using the label "sheep" in a universal manner

I agree, only those who hear his voice and believe are his sheep. But it does not follow that the elect are his sheep, because some of the elect don't hear his voice---yet.

I'd like to point out that in John seeing is believing and it seems here that hearing is beleiving as well. Or is it beleiving leads to hearing? I think it's true both ways. In John 1 we find that we are blind, but Jesus is the light, so if we see, it is becasue of His light, and this allows us to believe.

Now, if the sheep are the only ones who believe, and God desires all to believe, then God desires all people to come into his flock. Once this happens, we are his sheep.