Consider these verses...

[Reformationist]

I agree, only those who hear his voice and believe are his sheep.

Okay. So "sheep" is used in a limited manner in John 10?

But it does not follow that the elect are his sheep, because some of the elect don't hear his voice---yet.

I don't follow. Some of the elect aren't born yet. However, when they are born, at their appointed time, God will give them ears to hear His voice and they will be born again. How does this affect this passage of Scripture?

I'd like to point out that in John seeing is believing and it seems here that hearing is beleiving as well. Or is it beleiving leads to hearing? I think it's true both ways. In John 1 we find that we are blind, but Jesus is the light, so if we see, it is becasue of His light, and this allows us to believe.

Okay but the effect of that light is limited, right? Not all believe, right? If that be the case, then either Christ's light is unable to overcome the darkness of man's fallenness, or, He doesn't shine the same light on all people. You say His light enables us to see and allows us to believe, right? Was this same light given even to those who still end up not believing?

Now, if the sheep are the only ones who believe, and God desires all to believe, then God desires all people to come into his flock. Once this happens, we are his sheep.

seed, I didn't ask you what God desired. I said, "who are God's sheep?" His sheep is either "only ones who believe" or it is everyone without exception.

Let's slow this down a bit. I'll ask one question at a time:

In John 10:14 and John 10:27 who is Jesus refering to when He says "sheep." If you think it's everyone without exception, type "everyone without exception." If, however, you believe it is those who follow Him, be it the past, present or future, i.e, believers, type "only those who believe."

Please answer that and then we'll go from there.

Thanks,
God bless

 

[theseed]

Okay but the effect of that light is limited, right? Not all believe, right? If that be the case, then either Christ's light is unable to overcome the darkness of man's fallenness, or, He doesn't shine the same light on all people. You say His light enables us to see and allows us to believe, right? Was this same light given even to those who still end up not believing?

I'm glad you asked this. I believe his sheep are only those who believe, with what I've read so far. Now, about The Light.

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[6] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[7] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."[8]

1) We are all predestined to hell, we are all condemned. This happened before Christ was in the world. I think we can all agree on this.

2) Some hate the light and choose not to come into it, this is all men, because their deeds are evil, note that Nicodemus here comes by night, and thinks he "knows" things

3) According to O'Day commentary (NIB) which she mostly bases on older theologans, what kind of person someone is determines whether they will hate the light when the are faced with the ligth or decision believe in Christ. And the World will judge itself by what decision they made. The light only reveals the truth, as though the decision was only made in the present.

Ok, this is actually getting to deep for me to grasp this passage, and it does not exactly relate to OP.

 

[theseed]

I did not know I could vote more than once. I believe that Christ died for all people, and God sent his Son to save all people and not to condemn them as we read in John 3, where men and world seem to be used inter-changibly.

 

[countrymousenc]

A question for The Seed:

If I have understood your posts, you believe that no one is one of the sheep until he has believed. What do you make of John 10:16?

And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Notice that Jesus is speaking of the other sheep's belief in the future tense, yet He already calls them His sheep.

Reformationist has already pointed out this verse to you,

John 10:26

But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

Effect: you do not believe

Cause: you are not of My sheep

?

 

[Reformationist]

I'm glad you asked this. I believe his sheep are only those who believe, with what I've read so far.

I would agree with you completely. You and I both agree that, in the context of John 10, the "sheep" are "those who have/do/will believe." Now, let's move on to the next question. Since we both agree that the "sheep" of John 10 are believers, and then we read in verse 15 that Jesus says, "I lay down My life for the sheep," how do you couple the limited usage of "sheep" with verse 15 and come up with the following statement:

I believe that Christ died for all people, and God sent his Son to save all people and not to condemn them as we read in John 3, where men and world seem to be used inter-changibly.

These two admissions are completely contradictory. Jesus' sheep, for whom He lays down is life, is only believers, BUT, Jesus also lays down His life to save all people. That's what you're saying. How does that even make sense to you?

Now, about The Light.

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

1) We are all predestined to hell, we are all condemned. This happened before Christ was in the world. I think we can all agree on this.

2) Some hate the light and choose not to come into it, this is all men, because their deeds are evil, note that Nicodemus here comes by night, and thinks he "knows" things

I agree with both of these statements.

3) According to O'Day commentary (NIB) which she mostly bases on older theologans, what kind of person someone is determines whether they will hate the light when the are faced with the ligth or decision believe in Christ. And the World will judge itself by what decision they made. The light only reveals the truth, as though the decision was only made in the present.

Okay. I agree with this, though I do not completely understand what O'Day means by "what kind of person someone is..." How do you understand that qualification?

Ok, this is actually getting to deep for me to grasp this passage, and it does not exactly relate to OP.

Actually, I think you're right on target.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

I did not know I could vote more than once. I believe that Christ died for all people, and God sent his Son to save all people and not to condemn them as we read in John 3, where men and world seem to be used inter-changibly.

How in the world do you limit the subject of John 10 to "sheep" being "only those who believe" and then acknowledge that Christ clearly limits the benefactors of His atoning work when He says, "I lay my life down for the sheep" and then turn around and say that Christ died for all people and His goal was to save all people? Don't you see that those two lines of thought are completely contradictory?

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

A question for The Seed:

If I have understood your posts, you believe that no one is one of the sheep until he has believed. What do you make of John 10:16?



Notice that Jesus is speaking of the other sheep's belief in the future tense, yet He already calls them His sheep.

Reformationist has already pointed out this verse to you,

John 10:26



Effect: you do not believe

Cause: you are not of My sheep

?

Thank you. I was beginning to think I was losing my mind.

Well, that may still be the case but at least I'm not the only who sees an inconsistancy.

God bless

 

[countrymousenc]

Thank you. I was beginning to think I was losing my mind.

Well, that may still be the case but at least I'm not the only who sees an inconsistancy.

God bless

You're welcome!

 

[theseed]

Ref,

God the Father gave his son to save those that believe, Christ lays his life down for his sheep. Why? becasue God loves the world, all men and women, and children. His motiviation was his love, his purpose was to save those that believe. All people were/are condemned without Christ, God sent his Son to save those people. But they will only be saved if they believe.

John 3

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[6] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[7] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."[8]

 

[theseed]

How in the world do you limit the subject of John 10 to "sheep" being "only those who believe" and then acknowledge that Christ clearly limits the benefactors of His atoning work when He says, "I lay my life down for the sheep" and then turn around and say that Christ died for all people and His goal was to save all people? Don't you see that those two lines of thought are completely contradictory?

God bless

See post 24

 

[theseed]

A question for The Seed:

If I have understood your posts, you believe that no one is one of the sheep until he has believed. What do you make of John 10:16?



Notice that Jesus is speaking of the other sheep's belief in the future tense, yet He already calls them His sheep.

Reformationist has already pointed out this verse to you,

John 10:26



Effect: you do not believe

Cause: you are not of My sheep

?

Yes, this means future sheep. Did you miss the post where I showed that Jesus Christ exhorted those Pharisees to believe? And if they are not his sheep because they don't believe, then that would mean they could be if they believed. Do you know if they ever believed? No you don't.

 

[theseed]

Thank you. I was beginning to think I was losing my mind.

Well, that may still be the case but at least I'm not the only who sees an inconsistancy.

God bless

You only see it because of a failure on my part to show you where you err.

 

[theseed]

John 6:51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

 

[theseed]

John 12:47
"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.


Look, some people of the world won't believe, so the world does include all people without exception, God loves the whole world, even though the world is dark and blind. Jesus is the light of the world, he overcomes the world, just has light overcomes darkness, and the darkness--the world--does not understand (comphrend) the light

http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?search=world&SearchType=AND&version=NIV&restrict=&StartRestrict=JOHN&EndRestrict=JOHN&rpp=100&language=english&searchpage=0&x=19&y=7

Click on this link to read all 57 verses in John that talks about the world, you will see that it is used symbolically as I have described.

 

[Reformationist]

Ref,

God the Father gave his son to save those that believe, Christ lays his life down for his sheep.

I agree. And you acknowledge that those that have/do/will believe is a limited number rather than humanity as a whole, right?

Why? becasue God loves the world, all men and women, and children.

Where do you read this, John 3:16? What about the verses that say that God hates certain people? How can you say that God loves all people when the Bible clearly states that there are people that God doesn't love?

His motiviation was his love

His love for whom? Additionally, while I recognize that God was indeed motivated by His love for His children (believers), that love for us was not His primary motivation. God's primary motivation in ALL things is His glory.

his purpose was to save those that believe.

I agree completely. This is exactly what the reformed community would acknowledge.

All people were/are condemned without Christ, God sent his Son to save those people.

Whoaa there seed. This is a contradiction to what you just said. Look:

You said, "his purpose was to save those that believe."

Then, in the next sentence, you say, "God sent his Son to save those [all] people."

Those are completely contradictory. Which is it?

But they will only be saved if they believe.

Okay. Seriously. You're making no sense whatsoever. Either God's purpose in sending His Son was to save every single person or God's purpose was to save those that believe.

Which is it?

 

[Reformationist]

You only see it because of a failure on my part to show you where you err.

Well, I am sure that you failed to show me where I erred but I don't think it's because you didn't try. I think it's because there was no error on my part, at least with regard to that. You are making contradictory statements and acting as if you aren't.

 

[theseed]

Well, I am sure that you failed to show me where I erred but I don't think it's because you didn't try. I think it's because there was no error on my part, at least with regard to that. You are making contradictory statements and acting as if you aren't.

No, it's just a your misunderstanding on what the bible really says. And if Christ died for the whole world, Christ also died for his sheep. His sheep are those in the world that believe, since the pharisees did not believe, they were not his sheep. But when they do, they are his sheep.

 

[Reformationist]

John 6:51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

Okay. I really wish people would study the Bible instead of spouting off verses that make no contextual sense. Additionally, I'm not disputing that those who "eat of the bread of life" will not die. What I'm disputing is your all inclusive use of the word kosmos (world) when you, yourself, have acknowledged that God's purpose in sending His Son was to save those that believe.

Look at verse 33 of the same chapter:

John 6:33
For the bread of God is He who comes down from Heaven and gives life to the world.

Verse 51 is almost an exact repeat of verse 33. Jesus had just finished distinguishing between the manna, which those in attendence called "bread from Heaven," by saying that Moses did not give them bread from Heaven, rather it is God who gives the true bread from Heaven. He tells them the true bread from Heaven is "He who comes down from Heaven and gives life to the world." Now, do all people have life? OF COURSE NOT. Who has life? Those that believe. Those that believe are those to whom the Lord gives life.

Look at the entry from Strong's Concordance for the use of the word "kosmos":

8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

The usage of the word kosmos (world) in John 6:33 is not all people but rather believers only. This is the same sense in which verse 33 is repeated in verse 51. Oh, and before you cite John 3:16 again, I encourage you to look at 8b above.

Care to try again?

 

[theseed]

Where do you read this, John 3:16? What about the verses that say that God hates certain people? How can you say that God loves all people when the Bible clearly states that there are people that God doesn't love?

1 Tim. 2
3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time.


Ref, you like to point out verses like Romans 9, and ingnore verses like these.

Whoaa there seed. This is a contradiction to what you just said. Look:

You said, "his purpose was to save those that believe."

Then, in the next sentence, you say, "God sent his Son to save those [all] people."

Those are completely contradictory. Which is it?

You are confusing motivation with purpose. God sent his Son to save the world, all people, and not to condemn it. His purpose is to save those that believe.

 

[theseed]

I have already established that the world in John is all those who are against God, so your argument that it is only believers is moot. Here we see that some of the people will not believe, but his purpose was to save the world, and not to condemn it. That is why he was sent.

John 12:47
"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.