Consider these verses...

[Reformationist]

John 12:47
"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.

Again, I point you to the proper understanding of John 12:47:

8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19

Look, some people of the world won't believe, so the world does include all people without exception, God loves the whole world, even though the world is dark and blind.

Psalm 5:5
The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;
You hate all workers of iniquity.

Once again Scripture refutes you. Please do not twist this by saying that "hate" means "loves less."

Jesus is the light of the world, he overcomes the world, just has light overcomes darkness, and the darkness--the world--does not understand (comphrend) the light

I have never said that the light doesn't overcome the world. I know it does. What it does not do, nor was it intended to do, was to save all of fallen humanity. It accomplishes exactly what it was purposed to accomplish. That is, to save all that the Father gave the Son. That is the good news of the Gospel. God keeps us until that day on the merits of Christ, who died for us. If we are not kept it's not because Jesus failed to keep us. It's because we were never given to Him by the Father.

Click on this link to read all 57 verses in John that talks about the world, you will see that it is used symbolically as I have described.

How about checking out a concordance sometime. You'll see that you're clearly mistaken. Context doesn't seem to be doing the trick for you.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

No, it's just a your misunderstanding on what the bible really says.

LOL! Yeah. That must be it.

And if Christ died for the whole world, Christ also died for his sheep. His sheep are those in the world that believe, since the pharisees did not believe, they were not his sheep. But when they do, they are his sheep.

Oh, a universalist. Well, why didn't you just say so? That would have saved us a whole lot of typing.

 

[Reformationist]

You are confusing motivation with purpose. God sent his Son to save the world, all people, and not to condemn it. His purpose is to save those that believe.

Did you just say that there's a difference between what motivates God and what He purposes to come to pass? And you think I misunderstand what the Bible says?

 

[theseed]

Did you just say that there's a difference between what motivates God and what He purposes to come to pass? And you think I misunderstand what the Bible says?

Let me clarify my typos. God's motiviation = Loves everybody, God's motivation to save those that believe.

 

[theseed]

Psalm 5:5
The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;
You hate all workers of iniquity.

Ref, you should know that all people are workers of iniquity. So we are all of the world before we are saved, God's elect are those that left the world.

 

[Reformationist]

Let me clarify my typos. God's motiviation = Loves everybody, God's motivation to save those that believe.

Well, that makes even less sense than before.

You're losing me fast seed.

 

[Reformationist]

Ref, you should know that all people are workers of iniquity.

Yes. I do know that. However, and this is a wonderful however, those who have been reconciled to God by the obedience of Christ are no longer viewed as workers of iniquity.

So we are all of the world before we are saved, God's elect are those that left the world.

Wrong again. God's elect are those that are taken out of the world.

God bless

 

[theseed]

Ref,
I see know reason to contine this argument if you are going to evade questions about 1 Timothy 2.. This shows me that you don't know. And if that is true, then it lends itself to the possibility that you could be wrong.

But, what we have all obersrerved from all your posts and threads is that you are not willing to look at alternatives, but simply pick away logical fallacies and not ignore the scriptures they quote, like 1 Timothy 2. You like to belittle peoples arguments and write them off as contradicitons, rather than consider the possiblity that they actually know where they are comming from.

This tactics are like vinegar, and you will not catch many flies with them, your discussions need to be more like honey if you are going to win anybody to your side.

God Bless.

 

[theseed]

[/font]

Yes. I do know that. However, and this is a wonderful however, those who have been reconciled to God by the obedience of Christ are no longer viewed as workers of iniquity.


Wrong again. God's elect are those that are taken out of the world.

God bless

Then this would mean that God loved the world (John 1-21)

 

[theseed]

Well, that makes even less sense than before.

You're losing me fast seed.

I mistyped again. God's motivatin = loves world (everbody); God's purpose = save those that believe.

 

[Reformationist]

Ref,
I see know reason to contine this argument if you are going to evade questions about 1 Timothy 2.. This shows me that you don't know. And if that is true, then it lends itself to the possibility that you could be wrong.

seed, of course there's a possibility that I'm wrong. There's a possibility that we're both wrong. Don't you acknowledge that? Regardless, any doctrine that pits one attribute of God against another attribute of God makes God out to be conflicted. It is incongruous to to say that God purposes different from His motivations. Is that what you really think God is like, that He can't make up His own mind and seek, and accomplish, that which He desires?

But, what we have all obersrerved from all your posts and threads is that you are not willing to look at alternatives, but simply pick away logical fallacies and not ignore the scriptures they quote, like 1 Timothy 2.

seed, who's the "we" that have "all observed?" If you're just looking for supporters for your point of view you'll have no problem finding them. There are a ton of Christians who'd rather think that they contribute to their salvation, that they're not as bad as they are, that God is incapable of bringing His own plan to fruition because of the "free will" of man, etc. After years as a reformed Christian I'm under no dillusions about how anthropocentric man receives the orthodox doctrines that shine forth from every page of the Gospel. That does not, however, mean that we should ignore the holy attributes of God in an effort to glorify man.

You like to belittle peoples arguments and write them off as contradicitons, rather than consider the possiblity that they actually know where they are comming from.

I don't write them off as contradictions. They are contradictions. Your posts make no sense. You say that God is motivated to send His Son because He loves every single person ever created but His purpose was to only save those who believe. How does that even make sense to you? Do you think God set Himself up to be eternally disappointed that some of the people He so desparately loved don't believe? Very sovereign picture of God you have there.

This tactics are like vinegar, and you will not catch many flies with them, your discussions need to be more like honey if you are going to win anybody to your side.

God Bless.

Wow. That was deep. Listen seed, if you can't take the criticism that your posts make no sense and contradict what the Bible clearly says then a debate forum is not the best place for you.

 

[Reformationist]

Then this would mean that God loved the world (John 1-21)

What? What are you talking about? Those that God loved He took out of the world.

 

[Reformationist]

I mistyped again. God's motivatin = loves world (everbody); God's purpose = save those that believe.

As I said, do you think it's wise to pit God's motivation against His purpose? Your version of God leaves Him either impotent or disappointed.

 

[FreeinChrist]

The poll is biased and does not allow for a clear answer. If you vote that Christ died to save the world, as it states in John 3:16...then it implies that all that are in the world are His sheep whether they believe or not.

But only believers are His sheep.

but Christ died to make salvation available for the whole world... it is those who accept the gift that become his sheep.

 

[theseed]

The poll is biased and does not allow for a clear answer. If you vote that Christ died to save the world, as it states in John 3:16...then it implies that all that are in the world are His sheep whether they believe or not.

But only believers are His sheep.

but Christ died to make salvation available for the whole world... it is those who accept the gift that become his sheep.

Thank you freeinChrist

 

[theseed]

Ref,

I can't be wrong unless I think I'm right. I don't take a closed position on soteriology like you do. Reformist have just has many reasons to be arroagant as those that take a free-will approach, so pointing out this does not change anything.

We discused these very same things before, but all I got was jibes.

Now, maybe you should not be in the debate forum, becasue in my 1200 posts, I've not seen anybody who is like you. The ''we'' that I was refering to are people who have told me that they don't like the attitude that you take.

The bible tells us to give an answer of our hope with gentle and respect. This is what we find Jesus doing with Nicodumus, and the Samaritan women at the well.

1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

 

[FreeinChrist]

You're welcome!

 

[Reformationist]

The poll is biased and does not allow for a clear answer.

Well, "biased" implies intent. I was just trying to find out who you think God's sheep are and for whom did He die, in light of those verses I posted.

If you vote that Christ died to save the world, as it states in John 3:16...then it implies that all that are in the world are His sheep whether they believe or not.

But only believers are His sheep.

I'm not sure where you are confused. The first option is "God's sheep are His elect." The last option is "Christ died to save all people." Sounds to me that those are the options you'd want to choose. Do you just dislike the word "elect?" If so, I encourage you to acknowledge that the word is used in Scripture so you should not shy away from it. God's elect are those that have, do, or will believe in Him unto salvation.

but Christ died to make salvation available for the whole world... it is those who accept the gift that become his sheep.

Can you please show me in Scripture where the "availibility of salvation" was what God died to provide? If it was the "availability of salvation" but not the actual salvation was there a possibility that everyone would accept the gift? Was there a possibility that no one would accept the gift?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Reformationist]

I can't be wrong unless I think I'm right.

Well, you've got that in spades.

I don't take a closed position on soteriology like you do.

Really? I've never, in all my 5864 posts seen you change your mind on ANYTHING. That seems pretty "closed."

Reformist have just has many reasons to be arroagant as those that take a free-will approach, so pointing out this does not change anything.

I don't think any of us, regardless of our beliefs, have a reason to be arrogant. In fact, if any of us knew anything we wouldn't act like we do. Godliness isn't about being right. It's about desiring to love God and your neighbor regardless of who is right.

We discused these very same things before, but all I got was jibes.

Seed, you give as many jibes as you get. Don't play the victim. It's a bit incongruous with the image you project to anyone who has engaged in debate with you.

Now, maybe you should not be in the debate forum, becasue in my 1200 posts, I've not seen anybody who is like you.

What, a sinner? Arrogant? Prideful? Argumentative? Self righteous? Belligerent? If not, you haven't looked very hard. Maybe it's just a personal thing with me. Either way, you should understand that the Lord reveals the weaknesses and sins of others to your eyes so that you may spot those same errors IN YOURSELF. Just some food for thought. You should take a biiiig, healthy bite.

The ''we'' that I was refering to are people who have told me that they don't like the attitude that you take.

Wow. There's an "I don't like Ref's attitude" club at CF? How very loving and charitable of you to point that out in a public forum. Thanks so much.

The bible tells us to give an answer of our hope with gentle and respect. This is what we find Jesus doing with Nicodumus, and the Samaritan women at the well.

I think that's a wonderful idea. But, hey, don't you think you should find a mirror and repeat this statement?

God bless

 

[FreeinChrist]

Well, "biased" implies intent. I was just trying to find out who you think God's sheep are and for whom did He die, in light of those verses I posted.

Actually biased does not imply intent. There are many research studies that have been found to be biased in that by design of the study itself and how the questions are asked, the researchers were directing the results. Intention is not necessarily there at all. The propblem was in the design.

It helps that one can put more than one answer down.

Can you please show me in Scripture where the "availibility of salvation" was what God died to provide?

Jhn 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.Jhn 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.


1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, {and} one mediator also between God and men, {the} man Christ Jesus,1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony {given} at the proper time.


2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

And it is a gift one receives through faith:

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.


I like what that one article pointed out - the one that the seed posted:

John 1:29: "The next day John saw Jesus coming towards him and said, 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.'"

What is the "world" here? Exegete B. F. Westcott says: "The fundamental idea of kosmos [world] in St. John is that of the sum of created being which belongs to the sphere of human life as an ordered whole, considered apart from God....the world comes to represent humanity in its fallen state, alienated from its Maker."

John Calvin says of this verse: "He uses the word sin in the singular number for any kind of iniquity; as if he had said that every kind of unrighteousness which alienates men from God is taken away by Christ. And when he says the sin of the world, he extends this favor indiscriminately to the whole human race."
​

I have asked many Calvinists for a quote from John Calvin that shows he taught limited atonement. I 've never seen one. Only quotes like above that show he believed in unlimited atonement.