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Consequences of Creationism

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lucaspa

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First, let's use the definition of Creation Science provided by creation scientists for the 1982 Arkansas Trial. That gives us the basic statements to work with.

"(a) Creation-science" means the scientific evidences for creation and the inferences from those scientific evidences. Creation-science includes the scientific evidences and related inferences that indicate: (1) Sudden creation of the universe, energy, and life from nothing; (2) the insufficiency of mutation and natural selection in bringing about development of all living things form a single organism; (3) Changes only within fixed limits of originally created kinds of plants and animals; (4) Separate ancestry for man and apes; (5) Explanations of the earth's early geology by catastrophism, including the occurrence of a worldwide flood; and (6) A relatively recent inception of the earth and its living kinds." Section 4 of Act 590 of the Arkansas legislature, 1981

Let's start with the last one first.

By "recent inception" creation science means less than 10,000 years (ICR and AiG).

1. Distant stars and galaxies. The speed of light in vacuum is a constant. This gives us the unit of distance called a light year, or the distance light travels in a year. It also, obviously, tells us how far in the past the object is. Well, a deduction from creation science is that we should see objects no more than 20,000 light years away at most. Instead, we can see objects from 4 light years to over 8 billion light years away. Falsifies #6.

2. Radioactive isotopes. If the earth is recent, then it should contain isotopes of short half-life. There are 64 nuclides that have half-lives in excess of 1,000 years. Of these, 47 have half-lives in the range 1,000 to 50 million years. Seven must be excluded from this analysis because they are being generated by interaction with cosmic rays or the decay of other nuclides. If the earth were new (within 10,000 years) then there should be significant amounts of all 40 nuclides in the earth's crust. If, on the other hand, the earth is billions of years old, then these 40 nuclides should have decayed, leaving no trace. We would then be able only to find nuclides with very long half-lives. So how many of the 40 short half-lived nuclides can we find in the crust? None. Zip. Of the 17 nuclides with half-lives greater than 50 million years, we can find detectable amounts of all 17. You may object to specific dating procedures, but this data indicates that the earth is well over 50 million years. In fact, for the half-life decay of nuclides with 50 million year half-lives to eliminate those nuclides, the earth has to be very old. Far older than 20,000 years.

#5. Explaining the earth's geology by a world-wide Flood. I already noted that this idea was falsified by 1831. There are several whole books detailing the hundreds of falsifications of this idea. I suggest Genesis and Geology by CC. Gillespie for an overview. But here are a few deductions and consequences from an evangelical Christian who is also a professional geologist.

"I went on to criticize the flood geology of Whitcomb and Morris, introducing some still valid geological arguments that had not previously appeared in discussions of the deluge.
1. I argued that known rates of heat flow from bodies of crystallizing magma pose problems for those who contend that all fossil-bearing rocks were laid down during the single year of the biblical flood. On the New Jersey side of the Hudson River opposite Manhattan, there is a geological formation known as the Palisades sill, a thick sheet of rock of igneous origin that intruded into red sandstones and shales, Flood geologists of the Whitcomb-Morris school hold that the sand-stones and shales were laid down during the course of the flood, and hence they would logically have to assert that the magma was injected into this material during the course of the flood, cooled, hardened, tilted, and eroded before the other flood sediments settled atop it. But this would not have been possible. We know on the basis of heat flow considerations and the thickness of the sill that it would have taken several hundred years to cool and crystallize in the way it now appears. Indeed, many other much larger igneous rock bodies would have re-quired thousands to hundreds of thousands of years to lose their heat in order to crystallize. Flood geologists have made little attempt to refute this line of evidence.
2. Radiometric dating of igneous formations of the sort men-tioned above - formations that according to the Whitcomb-Morris theory must have been produced within the space of a single year -suggest that they are in fact millions of years old. These figures are consistent with ages predicted on the basis of stratigraphical relation-ships with the intruded rocks. Similar examples can be multiplied many times over
3. The phenomena of metamorphism also pose problems for flood geology. In some localities, fossils are found in rocks that also bear evidence of having undergone significant changes (metamorphism) as a result of having been exposed to very high temperatures and pressures. The problem for flood geologists is to show how a sedimen-tary rock, which they contend was formed at the surface of the earth during the course of the flood, could have been buried and heated fast enough to metamorphose. Both heat flow theory and known rates of chemical reactions indicate that such rocks could not possibly have undergone the observed metamorphism within a single year
4. A wealth of evidence associated with modern discoveries about continental drift and sea floor spreading indicate that various kinds of rocks - including varieties that the flood geologists maintain were formed during the course of the flood - must have been formed both before and after the separation of continents. If the flood geologists are right, this would imply that the continents must have been drifting apart substantially during the course of the flood. But thousands of miles of continental drift within the space of a few months is completely inconsistent with any known rates of drift.
I concluded the book with a look at Scripture, arguing that the biblical data (Gen. 2 in particular) suggest that pre-flood geography was fundamentally the same as post-flood geography which precludes the possibility of a global deluge involving a wholesale reorganization of terrestrial surface features. I also affirmed my belief that the biblical flood was in fact a historical event and not merely myth or legend. It was my intent to show how Christians could endorse the idea of a historical flood without having to commit themselves to a flood geology theory that is thoroughly in conflict with the data of creation." Davis A Young, The Biblical Flood, Pp 273-274.

Creation scientists have attempted to address the last point by proposing "runaway subduction" to get very quick movement of the plates. This has lots of problems independent of the Flood, including the problem of what is going to stop the rapid movement.

#4. Separate ancestry of man and apes. Deductions from this include:
a. No fossils intermediate between H. sapiens and other species.
b. No morphological and physiological links between them.
c. No genetic links.

I have a list of some of the individual fossils that provide a transition from H. sapiens to H. erectus to H. habilis to A. afarensis. IT's quite a long list. Each of these falsifies Creation Science because creation science says none of them exist. Then, of course, there are the recent finds close to the ape-human split that have are so primitive that scientists argue over which lineage they are on. Again, a consequence of creation science is that these fossils would not exst.

There are numerous morphological and physiological links. See http://aleph0.clarku.edu/huxley/CE7/index.html for Huxley's original list of these. Again, none of them should exist by creation science.

The genetic links are numerous, starting with the greater than 98% similarity. Then there are the transposons. These are short sequences of non-coding DNA in genomes. Humans share some transposons with chimps and no other species. Only common ancestry explains their presence.

#3. Changes within fixed limits of originally created kinds. One of my favorites! A deduction from this is that the DNA of different kinds is independent of other kinds. Since there are barriers, the DNA of one kind cannot be changed into that of another kind (whatever kind may be) and thus, the genomes are independent and cannot be related.

This one got tested in the 1980s and early 1990s when fast and inexpensive DNA sequencing became available. Now large data sets of of hundreds or thousands of DNA sequences, each of which has thousands of nucleotides, are now routinely being analyzed. This led to phylogenetic analysis where DNA from many species can be compared.

What was found? "As phylogenetic analyses became commonplace in the 1980s, several groups emphasized what should have been obvious all along: Units of study in biology (from genes through organisms to higher taxa) do not represent statistically independent observations, but rather are interrelated through their historical connections." IOW, no barriers. Look it up for yourself.
DM Hillis, Biology recapitulates phylogeny, Science (11 April) 276: 276-277, 1997. Primary articles are JX Becerra, Insects on plants: macroevolutionary chemical trends in host use. Science 276: 253-256, 1997; VA Pierce and DL Crawford, Phylogenetic analysis of glycolitic enzyme expression, Science 276: 256-259; and JP Huelsenbeck and B Rannala, Phylogenetic methods come of age: testing hypotheses in an evolutionary context. Science 276: 227-233, 1997.

#2 Insufficiency of mutation and natural selection. This one is vague and takes the form of many specific statements -- what use is half of a wing, irreducible complexity, and complex specified information. There are thousands of examples of refutations for these. I'm going to give you just two.
a. The half-a-wing and irreducible complexity are the same argument. Here is an argument showing how Darwinian selection (variation and natural selection) can get any complex structure. http://www.cbs.dtu.dk/staff/dave/articles/jtb.pdf
b. Humans use Darwinian selection to get design when the design is too tough for them. One example is having Darwinian selection invent and get patents for the inventions!
24. Jr Koza, MA Keane, MJ Streeter, Evolving inventions. Scientific American, 52-59, Feb 2003 check out [url]www.genetic-programming.com[/url]
Another example is having Darwinian selection make something not found in nature -- a DNA that is also an enzyme! Something which, according to creation science, God never created. Humans didn't know how to make one either, so they had "mutation and natural selection" do it.
20. Breaker RR, Joyce GF.A DNA enzyme that cleaves RNA. Chem Biol 1994 Dec;1(4):223-9
21. Ronald R Breaker, Gerald FA Joyce DNA enzyme with Mg2+-dependent RNA
phosphoesterase activity Chemistry & Biology 1995, 2:655-660.
This could not have been done if creation science is true.
You wanted false consequences of creationism. Here are just a few among thousands.

 
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DRIVEN

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Lucaspa
I apologize for the delay I've been under the weather. Sorry if i don't get to all your points tonight.

looking to Arkansas for a scientific definition? :scratch: Oh well on with it.

1.Genesis 1 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
God set them there to shine on the earth. They were created that way.

AIG has a good explanation here http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/405.asp

Now my point from the last post is that you will obviously find fault with this interpretation because you choose to interpret data differently.
 
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DRIVEN

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your second number 1 :scratch:
I don't think its necessary to believe all fossil bearing rocks were laid down during the flood. There is volcanic activity now and I'm sure there was before the flood. I would bet a few fossils are pre and post flood fossils. As far as cooling off to crystallize. Maybe the flood cooled them off. Science has a tendency to think a lot of things take a really long time only to discover later it can occur faster. AIG has a lot of geological evidence supporting the flood here http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/geology.asp and info on crystallization here http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/3970.asp
 
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Chi_Cygni

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Driven,

Humphrey's 'white hole cosmology' doesn't work - period.

Several problems exist with it.

1) Where are the relativistic effects, that are consequences of the theory, observed. You cannot have time move so quickly in the distant universe, but slowly here on Earth (or I should say the bubble around the Earth he mentions) without this being noticeable in the observation of distant objects.

2) His model does not produce redshifts like we observe for distant objects

3) His local bubble of normal time (including the Earth) has to be much larger than he first hypothesised due to SN1987A observations. This screws up his cosmological constant he calculates for his event horizon position. In fact it is screwed up in his original calculation anyway - the above makes it worse.
 
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Chi_Cygni

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DRIVEN said:
Chi_Cygni
You have to admit that there is more that we don't understand about time than what science understands.

any way I'm fine with God created it that way, just like he created adult trees bearing fruit.

Whoa there Driven. Now you reply with a 'we don't understand' comment but earlier you posted

Which is it to be?

This is two faced.

Let me guess - you think the AIG link is a good explanation because it says something you want to hear even though in reality you don't understand the bad arguments being made therein.

And people wonder why we shake our heads at the postings of Creationists on here when they don't even understand what they are arguing about - as long as it sounds good for their belief system it must be good - BUT when they are challenged they resort to a 'well no one knows' argument.

This is terrible, Driven. Just terrible.

You cannot support something without at least understanding the basics.
 
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Chi_Cygni

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I actually don't expect most people to understand the issues involved in this particular topic.

But what got me was the way you thought AIG had a good explanation then your backtracking when, as you admit, you don't understand the issue.

That is the kind of logic that makes most people either shake their heads in disbelief or laugh out loud.

The truth is on many Creationist arguments they rely on an audience that does not know anything about the issues involved BUT likes the way they sound because it supports their preconceived notions.

I'll bet these same people would not apply logic like this in any other area of their lives.

I don't mean an insult here Driven, but doesn't this embarass you?
 
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DRIVEN

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The truth is chi_cygnia is that creationist's are out gunned on the topics. Evolution is so easy and popular to believe right now. The reason its so popular is that any religion(or lack there of) can believe in evolution. Yes I know we are all Christians here, but thats why evolution is so popular. I would guess that scientists as a group have a greater percentage of atheists. Evolution and the big bang make it easy to leave God out of the equation. The truth is there is plenty of evidence to believe either. You choose to believe evolution and refuse to give creationism equal time much less consider the points seriously and look for supporting arguments. Unfortunately Bible prophesy does not support that one day science will figure out how little it knows. There is much i don't understand, but I still hold the Bible above science. And no I'm not embarrassed its not my first (or last)mistake(if its a mistake). I don't know of anyone that claims to be perfect(except Jesus).
 
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Bushido216

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DRIVEN, you're making a serious mistake, however, when deciding what evidence to accept and what not to accept.

If you go looking for evidence of creationism, you'll find it, no matter what. The only way that evidence can be accepted as evidence of creation is if both a.) it was found in a serious attempt to falsify creationism (i.e., you said "if creationism is true then x will occur and if it's false y will occur", and you get x) and b.) the evidence can only be explained by creationism and creationism alone. As well, a better theory will have more exclusions from what is allowed within the theory. Any creationist model allows for God to just zap things the way the creationists want it to be. The Theory of Evolution has several ways it could be falsified, i.e. the beneficial nature of macro-mutations or the removal of mutations all together.

As well, theories work on falsification. The worth of a theory isn't on how much supporting evidence it has, but on whether or not it has been falsified. Evolution has not been. Specific evidences have been, but not the three main brances of evolution (mutations occur, natural selection, and extrapolation if I'm not mistaken, lucaspa, please comment). Creationism, on the other hand, was falsified centuries ago by Christian Scientists looking for evidence of creation and catastrophic flood geology.
 
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Sinai

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lucaspa said:
First, let's use the definition of Creation Science provided by creation scientists for the 1982 Arkansas Trial. That gives us the basic statements to work with.

"(a) Creation-science" means the scientific evidences for creation and the inferences from those scientific evidences. Creation-science includes the scientific evidences and related inferences that indicate: (1) Sudden creation of the universe, energy, and life from nothing;
Hmmmm....

The sudden creation of the universe portion sounds rather similar to the big bang, doesn't it?
 
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lucaspa

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DRIVEN said:
looking to Arkansas for a scientific definition? :scratch:
The definition of Creation Science was written by Creation Scientists. This is how Creation Scientists defined Creation Science. That it is in Act 590 is simply coincidental.

The AiG post is basically the Oomphalos Argument. God created the light in transit. God created the universe to look old. As AiG says
"To create such a detailed series of signals in light beams reaching earth, signals which seem to have come from a series of real events but in fact did not, has no conceivable purpose. Worse, it is like saying that God created fossils in rocks to fool us, or even test our faith, and that they don’t represent anything real (a real animal or plant that lived and died in the past). This would be a strange deception."

AiG has not fully stated the theological problem. This means that God LIED. Christianity can't tolerate that. Yes, it gives you a young universe but at the cost of destroying the very thing --Christianity -- that they are trying to defend.

Now, their later idea, the new cosmology, has some obvious problems:

"If the speed of light (c) has not changed, the only thing left untouched in the equation is time itself. In fact, Einstein’s relativity theories have been telling the world for decades that time is not a constant."

This is not what Einstein's theory tells us. Notice that c is still constant. What is c? The distance that light travels in a period of time! Thus, there is a reference frame where time is constant! And out goes their cosmology!

"Dr Humphreys’ new creationist cosmology literally ‘falls out’ of the equations of GR, so long as one assumes that the universe has a boundary. In other words, that it has a center and an edge—that if you were to travel off into space, you would eventually come to a place beyond which there was no more matter. In this cosmology, the earth is near the center, as it appears to be as we look out into space."

But the earth is not at the "center". This has been shown. We are in a galaxy that is also moving "away" from the initial point of the Big Bang. To be at the "center" our galaxy would not be moving. But it is. So the data falsify the assumption on which the new cosmology is based.

Now my point from the last post is that you will obviously find fault with this interpretation because you choose to interpret data differently.
I'm not interpreting data differently. I'm using the same data these guys are. I'm saying that the data are opposite of what they assume or deduce.

Data are repeated observations. What happens is that data is used to evaluate and test hypotheses/theories. The data doesn't change. What happens is that creationists ignore data that falsifies their theories.

They also rig the game. Notice this part:
"This new cosmology is proposed as a creationist alternative to the big bang theory. It passed peer review, by qualifying reviewers, for the 1994 Pittsburgh International Conference on Creationism.2 "

Notice that they are trying to gain the repute of "peer-review" as used in science. However, the "peer-reviewers" are only people who already agree with them. In science, your peer-reviewers are your sharpest critics! Your most bitter enemies in the field. You have to convince people who don't like your idea to start with. Here you only have to convince people who are desperately trying to agree with you!

"If the universe is not much bigger than we can observe, and if it was only 50 times smaller in the past than it is now, then scientific deduction based on GR means it has to have expanded out of a previous state in which it was surrounded by an event horizon (a condition known technically as a ‘white hole’—a black hole running in reverse, something permitted by the equations of GR).
As matter passed out of this event horizon,"

We have to look at this one, too. Remember, a black hole is a gravitational field so dense that even light can't escape! Light can't move fast enough. GR says matter can never be accelerated to the speed of light. So just how can matter escape a black hole? They fibbed about the white hole.

"The negative square root solution inside the horizon represents a white hole. A white hole is a black hole running backwards in time. Just as black holes swallow things irretrievably, so also do white holes spit them out. White holes cannot exist, since they violate the second law of thermodynamics."
http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/schww.html

Oops. Violates SLOT. So where was the peer-review that they didn't catch this whopper! The very thing that creationists are basing their theory on can't exist! Remember, in other contexts creationists try to falsify evolution because it supposedly violates SLOT. So they can't very well use an entity that violates SLOT, can they?
 
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lucaspa

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DRIVEN said:
The reason its so popular is that any religion(or lack there of) can believe in evolution. Yes I know we are all Christians here, but thats why evolution is so popular.
I disagree. Evolution is "popular" because 1) all alternatives are falsified and 2) everyone can see the data for it.

Evolution is religiously neutral. So is all of science. Science is agnostic. It simply can't directly test for the existence of a deity. It equally can't falsiy one.

Evolution and the big bang make it easy to leave God out of the equation.
Only if you have already decided to leave God out. IOW, if you already have an atheistic faith, then evolution is consistent with that. But evolution and the Big Bang won't really support atheism as valid.

The truth is there is plenty of evidence to believe either. You choose to believe evolution and refuse to give creationism equal time much less consider the points seriously and look for supporting arguments.
Sorry, Driven, but this isn't how you evaluate things. Karl Popper, among others, noted that for any idea, if you look for supporting evidence, you will always find them. Therefore, by itself, supporting evidence does not count. You don't decide ideas by stacking up supporting evidence and seeing which stack is higher. You'd never get anywhere.

Instead, what you do is try to falsify the idea or theory. And I mean you really do try. Hard. Supporting evidence only counts if you get it as a result of seriously trying to falsify a theory and you failed.

So, let's look at my OP and the AiG response in this light. I posted that the speed of light and the presence of distant stars falsifies a young earth. It does. What AiG is doing in their websites is offering alternative hypotheses to explain the data but keep a young earth. IOW, the data hasn't changed. What is offered is different explanations for that data. AiG shows that two of those alternative hypotheses -- creation of light in transit and changing c -- are falsified in turn by 1) theological condiderations and 2) other data, respectively. So that still leaves distant stars as falsifying a young earth. So AiG is now offering a new hypotheses to give the distant stars in time but preserve a young universe. And that is to say time has slowed. However, as I pointed out in my reply, this hypothesis too is falsified by other data.

So, a young earth remains falsified because the alternative hypotheses proposed to avoid the original falsification are falsified in turn.

The problem is that modern day creationists don't seriously try to falsify their theory. 18th and 19th century creationists were different. They were good scientists and really tested creationism. And they succeeded in falsifying it. Creationism has been a falsified theory since 1831. It's just that modern creationists won't admit that the theory is falsified.

There is much i don't understand, but I still hold the Bible above science. And no I'm not embarrassed its not my first (or last)mistake(if its a mistake). I don't know of anyone that claims to be perfect(except Jesus).
Let's be clear. You are holding your fallible, human interpretation of the Bible above science. And it may be a spiritually fatal mistake. I think it is. Because I think what you are doing is making your interpretation of the Bible into a god to worship. Nothing can challenge this false idol. What is science? It is the study of the physical universe. Well, who created the physical universe? GOD. So what science does is read God's second book. Creation. By ignoring science you are ignoring God.
 
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lucaspa

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DRIVEN said:
4. Where does Genesis 2 say geography was the same before and after the flood? Noah would have used familiar names, but i doubt geography would have even been close to pre flood. God could have used this time to change the earth as much as he wanted.
If you look, the location of Eden, which is pre-Flood, is identified by post-Flood rivers. Now, for Genesis to be literally true, it means the geography could not have changed due to the Flood. If Moses used "familiar names", you are now saying Moses made it up and God didn't tell him the real names of the rivers. And there goes your literal interpretation of Genesis 1-11 as literal, actual history and completely accurate.

This is a lose-lose situation for creationism. Creationism requires a violent Flood in order to give the geological and fossil record. Yet they insist that Genesis 1-11 is literally true. But those requirements conflict and you can't have both.
 
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lucaspa

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Sinai said:
Hmmmm....

The sudden creation of the universe portion sounds rather similar to the big bang, doesn't it?
Yes, which is why Hugh Ross claims that only atheists can doubt the Big Bang! :D www.reasons.org It's also why one atheist has written a book entitled The Big Bang Never Happened and accuses Big Bang of being a theist conspiracy!

The problem is that Genesis 1 also says that stars, earth, and the moon were also formed from nothing. Modern cosmology has those formed by physical processes and not zapped into existence by God. So you get resistance to Big Bang.

However, notice that "life" is also included in that phrase. And I have posted many, many, many times ( :sigh: ) the data on life arising from non-life by chemistry.
 
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Sinai

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Sinai said:
Hmmmm....

The sudden creation of the universe portion sounds rather similar to the big bang, doesn't it?


lucaspa said:
Yes, which is why Hugh Ross claims that only atheists can doubt the Big Bang! :D www.reasons.org It's also why one atheist has written a book entitled The Big Bang Never Happened and accuses Big Bang of being a theist conspiracy!

The problem is that Genesis 1 also says that stars, earth, and the moon were also formed from nothing. Modern cosmology has those formed by physical processes and not zapped into existence by God. So you get resistance to Big Bang.

However, notice that "life" is also included in that phrase. And I have posted many, many, many times ( :sigh: ) the data on life arising from non-life by chemistry.
The Bible's account of creation only uses bara' three times: The first time is when God created the universe in Genesis 1:1, and the other two times refer to the creation of human beings or living souls. The verbs used for the forming of the sun, moon and stars are wayyaas (He made), yehi (let them be), and wayyitten (He placed). In other words, Genesis 1 does not tell us that they were created out of nothing, but were rather formed or made from existing material that was presumably formed from matter traced back to the first verse when God created the universe [or "the heavens and the earth"--which is the Hebrew phrase that corresponds to the English word "universe"].

It might also be noted that bara'--create out of nothing or create totally new--can only apply to God's divine creative activity (never of human activity) when God is creating something from nothing or is creating something that is totally new and which has never been before. As The Complete Biblical Library's commentary says, "Thus the use of bara' draws attention to the fact that the creation in the beginning was totally new. There never had been a creation or a created universe before."
 
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lucaspa

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Sinai said:
The Bible's account of creation only uses bara' three times: The first time is when God created the universe in Genesis 1:1, and the other two times refer to the creation of human beings or living souls. The verbs used for the forming of the sun, moon and stars are wayyaas (He made), yehi (let them be), and wayyitten (He placed). In other words, Genesis 1 does not tell us that they were created out of nothing, but were rather formed or made from existing material that was presumably formed from matter traced back to the first verse when God created the universe [or "the heavens and the earth"--which is the Hebrew phrase that corresponds to the English word "universe"].
I've heard this before. Notice I was stating the creationist position. Now you are arguing against it using a Hebrew exegesis. As much fun as dissecting this would be, I think it pointless. IMO, Genesis 1 was not meant to be a history of creation. It is not meant to be in any way accurate to modern science. Rather, it is a refutation of the Babylonian pantheon. What is important is that all of the entities mentioned are Babylonian gods and Genesis 1 is destroying them as gods by showing that they are created by Yahweh. I suspect that the different words are used because they fit the meter and rhyme of the poem better. Only that.

It might also be noted that bara'--create out of nothing or create totally new--can only apply to God's divine creative activity (never of human activity) when God is creating something from nothing or is creating something that is totally new and which has never been before.
Really? Then we can view Joyce's work of having natural selection create a DNA enzyme as "bara"? A DNA enzyme has never been before. Cool.

As The Complete Biblical Library's commentary says, "Thus the use of bara' draws attention to the fact that the creation in the beginning was totally new. There never had been a creation or a created universe before."
I would debate that commentary because God creates light, but the waters seem to have always been there. What is the Hebrew verb used for the creation of light?
 
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