Consciousness

[durangodawood]

What do you define as normal human experience? You said you had "experiences" What are they?

What are normal human experiences?

"Woke up, fell out of bed
Dragged a comb across my head
Found my way downstairs and drank a cup
And looking up I noticed I was late
Found my coat and grabbed my hat
Made the bus in seconds flat
Made my way upstairs and had a smoke
Somebody spoke and I went into a dream"

There are others too.

 

[Doveaman]

The brain uses energy to run the processes we call consciousness.

The human mind radiates conscious energy that generates the electrical impulses in the human brain to produce human awareness so that we become conscious of our human experiences.

Human mind --> Conscious energy --> Brain activity --> Human awareness --> Conscious experiences.

In that order.

Consciousness alters or stops when the processes that constitute it alter or stop.

Consciousness alters or stops when the brain that transmits it alter or stop.

Where does a flame go when you blow it out? An approximate analogy is what happens to an app on your phone or computer when another app occupies the screen; it may change, e.g. run quietly in background, or it may stop altogether.

Consciousness takes on the form of potential energy when it stops.

That's not consistent with the empirical evidence. Given that sequence, one would expect some feature of consciousness to be independent, i.e. unaffected, by changes to brain function. The evidence shows that every identifiable feature and adjunct of consciousness (level of awareness, personality, focus of attention, opinions, morals, values, sense of location, orientation, self, identity, neuroticism, emotion, and so-on) is affected by changes to brain function, and is consistent with consciousness being a form of information processing by the brain.

That same evidence is also consistent with the brain being the transmitter of consciousness, and not necessarily the creator of consciousness.

I’m sure you are aware that scientists have no idea of how a physical brain can create consciousness.

It’s called “The Hard Problem”.

The “Hard Problem” is hard because the brain does not create consciousness, it only transmits it.

The equivalent in the brain-as-receiver analogy to a TV receiving a broadcast would be finding that poking a screwdriver in the back of the TV could not only change the picture from colour to monochrome, but change the plot of the film that's showing, or change the decor in the newsroom studio, or change the newsreader, or change the whole programme schedule.

We might also be able to see the guardian angels all around us (2 Kings 6:17).

Unless you know of some identifiable feature of consciousness that is independent of changes in brain function?

Yes, it’s called the human mind.

The human mind is much more than just a physical brain. The human brain is just the physical mechanism through which information is transmitted from the human mind to our human awareness so that we become conscious of our human experiences.

It consists of physical processes in a physical substrate (the brain) that process information (physically represented as patterns of neural biochemical activity) to produce various physical results. .

You are simply relying on the correlation between our brain activity and our conscious experiences.

But this correlation would also exists if the brain was the transmitter of consciousness, and not the creator of it.

It's as physical as the 'pouring' that happens when you pour a cup of tea or coffee.

Well, as a believer in a conscious God who does not have a physical brain, I’m pretty sure that the existence of consciousness is not dependent upon a physical brain.

It seems more likely that the existence of the physical brain is dependent upon consciousness.

 

[Doveaman]

Nobody has a clue what consciousness is.

Then nobody has a clue what it is to be alive.

Like time and space, it seems to be a fundamental datum of experience which evades further definition. One thing it certainly isn’t however, is energy in any sense that could make the First Law of Thermodynamics in any way relevant.

I tend to think of consciousness as a radiant form of energy in the mind that interfaces with the electromagnetic field of the human brain to produce human awareness.

But I could be wrong.

 

[Doveaman]

Consciousness is the property of being conscious. Non-consciousness isn´t a form of consciousness, just like being dead isn´t a form of being alive.

Consciousness requires conscious energy that must preexists the conscious experience.

What we refer to as consciousness is the conscious experience, but the conscious energy that makes us aware of the experience must preexist the experience itself, after which we then become conscious of that experience.

 

[Doveaman]

Consciousness is a function of a material brain.

The material brain is a function of consciousness.

 

[Doveaman]

I entirely agree. Consciousness is indeed the energy that produces awareness in exactly the same way that electricity is the energy that produces light. Just ask any campfire.

I prefer to ask the electric sun.

Consciousness is the light that radiates in the human mind to produce human awareness, just as the sun radiates light in our physical environment to help us become aware of that environment.

 

[Doveaman]

Is it the energy, or is it what the energy does?

Both.

The light from the sun is the energy that produces light.

Consciousness is the energy that produces consciousness.

 

[Doveaman]

I don't mean to get too technical here. I've had some consciousness related experiences. I have a history of colon polyps (fortunately all benign) and every 3 years I get a colonoscopy to check for new ones. Just before the procedure, I get an injection of propoful into my IV line. Within seconds, I'm out like a light. No conscious awareness at all. Total oblivion. There are certain neurons in my brain that release gamma-aminobutyric acid as transmitter. GABA has an inhibitory effect on other parts of brain. There are also clusters of neurons called the ventolateral pre-optic nucleus (VLPO) and the ascending reticular activating system (RAS.) These brain regions are known to be involved in sleep and wakefulness. Activity in the VLPO causes sleep, and the RAS is active when awake. The neurons in the VLPO release GABA. Which as I stated, is inhibitory. It counteracts activity in parts of the brain like the RAS. Propoful augments GABA. The RAS is inhibited. And the end result is unconsciousness. But my brain is still alive. The neurons are still metabolizing glucose and producing ATP. So you could say my brain still has "energy." Just my consciousness is selectively turned off. Which indicates to me that consciousness is just another electrochemical process in the brain.

If consciousness is transmitted through the brain from a source external to the brain, the Propoful effect would be the same.

The brain would be the transmission line for consciousness to reach our awareness from that external source so that we have a conscious experience.

But if the transmission line is broken by Propoful, consciousness is inhibited and we cease to have a conscious experience.

The fact that the brain can be alive without being conscious may be another indicator that the brain is just a transmitter of consciousness, and not a creator of consciousness.

 

[quatona]

Consciousness requires conscious energy that must preexists the conscious experience.

So you are calling energy that isn´t conscious "conscious energy"?

What we refer to as consciousness is the conscious experience, but the conscious energy that makes us aware of the experience must preexist the experience itself, after which we then become conscious of that experience.

You would have to clarify what you mean by "conscious". So far you are using it in two completely different meaning and then try to equivocate them.

 

[quatona]

Anecdotal evidence is just a FORM of evidence.

Evidence for what?

 

[lesliedellow]

I tend to think of consciousness as a radiant form of energy in the mind that interfaces with the electromagnetic field of the human brain to produce human awareness.

Otherwise known as gobbledegook.

 

[Chriliman]

Consciousness is the energy of the mind that produces awareness.

Energy cannot be created nor destroyed; it can only change form.

The energy of consciousness was not created, nor can it be destroyed; it simply changes form (kinetic consciousness or potential consciousness).

In life, consciousness is in its kinetic form.

In death, consciousness is in its potential form.

In the resurrection, consciousness is restored to its kinetic form.

Consciousness has always existed and has taken on a kinetic form in the human mind to produce human awareness.

I can see 3 possibilities:

1. Consciousness is eternal.

2. Consciousness began, but never ends.

3. All consciousness begins and ends.

Both 1 and 2 are compatible with the concept of immortality.

If 3 is true, then all consciousness is finite which means non-consciousness is infinite. The ratio of finite to infinite is 0, which means our finite consciousness is equal to 0 or nothing. That's problematic.

 

[jayem]

If consciousness is transmitted through the brain from a source external to the brain, the Propoful effect would be the same.

The brain would be the transmission line for consciousness to reach our awareness from that external source so that we have a conscious experience.

But if the transmission line is broken by Propoful, consciousness is inhibited and we cease to have a conscious experience.

The fact that the brain can be alive without being conscious may be another indicator that the brain is just a transmitter of consciousness, and not a creator of consciousness.

Please tell me the mechanism by which consciousness is transmitted to our brains. Is it through EM radiation? In what frequency and wavelength? How is this information coded--analog or digital? What part of our brains receives this information? Are these consciousness transmissions specific to each person, or is a uniform signal that works for everyone? Do we only need to receive it once, and our consciousness is then installed for our entire lives, or is it sort of an ongoing download that needs updating? And what's the source of this information? And why hasn't it been detected already?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

The human mind radiates conscious energy that generates the electrical impulses in the human brain to produce human awareness so that we become conscious of our human experiences.

Human mind --> Conscious energy --> Brain activity --> Human awareness --> Conscious experiences.

In that order.
Consciousness alters or stops when the brain that transmits it alter or stop.
Consciousness takes on the form of potential energy when it stops.
That same evidence is also consistent with the brain being the transmitter of consciousness, and not necessarily the creator of consciousness.

You can, of course, believe whatever you like, but none of that makes any scientific sense. It's something made up to sound sciency but with no scientific content, i.e. pseudoscience. There is no scientific evidence consistent with the brain being the 'transmitter of consciousness'; the brain radiates heat and weak electromagnetic waves, but doesn't transmit anything (except in the sense of using the body to communicate with others via language & movement).

I’m sure you are aware that scientists have no idea of how a physical brain can create consciousness.

It’s called “The Hard Problem”.

Chalmer's 'Hard Problem' is more a philosophical problem than a scientific one - it deals with the explanatory gap between a sequence of physical states and subjective experience. On the scientific side, we've made good progress with discovering the functional components of consciousness and where in the brain they variously originate (for example, see 'Self Comes to Mind' by Antonio Damasio). Personally, I think the explanatory gap is the fundamental irreconcilability of the subjective and the objective; I don't expect it to be closed anytime soon.

Yes, it’s called the human mind.

You misunderstood the question; if the human mind is somehow independent of the brain, there should be some observable aspect of it that is not affected by changes to the brain (that's the point of the TV analogy - the broadcast is independent of the function of the TV, so there are aspects of what the TV displays that cannot be affected by messing with the TV).

For example, a sense of self, or a sense of location, or emotion, are considered common aspects or features of the mind/consciousness. They can all be affected by messing with the brain, which suggests they're features of brain activity, not aspects of something independent of the brain.

I was asking if you could name any identifiable feature of the mind or consciousness that is not affected by changes to the brain.

The human mind is much more than just a physical brain. The human brain is just the physical mechanism through which information is transmitted from the human mind to our human awareness so that we become conscious of our human experiences.
You are simply relying on the correlation between our brain activity and our conscious experiences.

But this correlation would also exists if the brain was the transmitter of consciousness, and not the creator of it.
Well, as a believer in a conscious God who does not have a physical brain, I’m pretty sure that the existence of consciousness is not dependent upon a physical brain.

You may find that a helpful way to think about the mind and consciousness in abstract terms, but it has no scientific basis. Your description just can't work in a universe like ours; it implies that not just neuroscience, but the standard model of physics is completely wrong - and we have exhaustive empirical evidence that isn't the case at human scales & energies.

Making up sciency sounding stuff in an attempt to support a supernatural belief is pseudoscience.

 

[SpiritualBeing]

What are normal human experiences?

"Woke up, fell out of bed
Dragged a comb across my head
Found my way downstairs and drank a cup
And looking up I noticed I was late
Found my coat and grabbed my hat
Made the bus in seconds flat
Made my way upstairs and had a smoke
Somebody spoke and I went into a dream"

There are others too.

Oh yea I’m not talking about normal human experience. I’m talking about transcendent experiences.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Consciousness is the energy of the mind that produces awareness.

Energy cannot be created nor destroyed; it can only change form.

The energy of consciousness was not created, nor can it be destroyed; it simply changes form (kinetic consciousness or potential consciousness).

In life, consciousness is in its kinetic form.

In death, consciousness is in its potential form.

In the resurrection, consciousness is restored to its kinetic form.

Consciousness has always existed and has taken on a kinetic form in the human mind to produce human awareness.

And hence "They have become like one of Us, KNOWING good and bad...."

People just don't understand what God is: Romans 1:20

Energy/Mind/Thought/Knowledge.......

Despite understanding "all" things came from energy, contain energy, and will return to energy......

 

[Justatruthseeker]

The human mind is much more than just a physical brain. The human brain is just the physical mechanism through which information is transmitted from the human mind to our human awareness so that we become conscious of our human experiences.
You are simply relying on the correlation between our brain activity and our conscious experiences.

But this correlation would also exists if the brain was the transmitter of consciousness, and not the creator of it.
Well, as a believer in a conscious God who does not have a physical brain, I’m pretty sure that the existence of consciousness is not dependent upon a physical brain.

It seems more likely that the existence of the physical brain is dependent upon consciousness.

Thought happens in the spark between neurons, not in the neurons themselves.... That flash of energy observed in CAT scans, etc, IS thought......

 

[Chriliman]

And hence "They have become like one of Us, KNOWING good and bad...."

People just don't understand what God is: Romans 1:20

Energy/Mind/Thought/Knowledge.......

Despite understanding "all" things came from energy, contain energy, and will return to energy......

This passage also suggests God is unseen, yet makes what is seen.
Hebrews 11:3
“By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible”

 

[Justatruthseeker]

This passage also suggests God is unseen, yet makes what is seen.
Hebrews 11:3
“By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible”

Agreed, which is why Energy/Mind/Thought can't be seen.... and why all things come from Energy, contain it, and will return to it.....

 

[DogmaHunter]

edit: faulty posting

nvm