Consciousness

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I completely agree. I'm using the terms "goal" and "direct" in a purely figurative sense. Evolution is a totally natural process. It occurs when conditions are right, and no specific design should be imputed to the results. Similar to snowflakes forming when atmospheric water droplets fall through cold air. There is no intention to produce hexagonal crystalline structures.

I've no real objection to figurative language when people are aware of it. On sites representing a teleological world-view, like this one, I tend to make a pedantic point of clarifying it, because there's a real likelihood of it being taken literally, and once that idea has taken root, it's very hard to change it.

 

[durangodawood]

The way Teilhard saw it is that there was a pull towards greater consciousness. So it isn't a goal actually. But that over time a greater consciousness will evolve.

The "pull" seems like a matter of faith, the story he preferred. I cant see any evidence for it.

To me, the increase in consciousness over time derives from its starting point at basically zero. There's nowhere to go but up!

 

[dlamberth]

Perhaps it's the phrasing - a 'pull' implies a directing (teleological?) influence from ahead, which only makes sense in terms of a goal. Even a 'push' has teleological overtones.

That's reasonable (though arguable) as a probabilistic statement, but not as an absolute.

It's a question of the particular context and relative advantage. For example, at the beginnings of evolution, when the first replicators had appeared, they were the simplest arrangements that could reproduce themselves with some random variation. Any variants that were simpler just couldn't reproduce. In this situation there are only two options for continuing to reproduce - stay as simple as possible or become more complex. Random variants that were more complex and could still reproduce would continue on. So in this situation it's almost inevitable that complexity will increase, even though the variation is entirely random.

At some point, complexity alone will become a disadvantage, e.g. slowing down reproduction, requiring more resources, and being more fragile and unreliable. At this point complexity will only increase if it provides some advantage that outweighs the disadvantages, for example, being able to make use of (eat) the teeming numbers of simpler replicators; and so-on.

The long-term result tends towards a pyramid of increasing complexity with vast numbers of simple organisms, with decreasing numbers of organisms as the complexity increases.

But complexity will only increase if it provides some advantage for survival and reproduction. Many complex organisms have evolved to become simpler as their environment changed and their previous level of complexity was no longer an advantage.

So there's no guarantee that complexity will increase, there's no drive or 'pull' towards complexity. If more complexity is possible and it provides an advantage, then it may increase, but unless it provides an advantage it won't.

Consciousness is a feature of the most complex life on Earth, and humans appear to have the most sophisticated form of consciousness; but it won't 'increase' by evolutionary means unless there's some selective advantage - and it's not even entirely clear precisely what we mean by consciousness, and what advantage it provides (there are some ideas), never mind what 'increasing' it means, and whether or how that would be a selective advantage.

It's possible that we could use technology to enhance consciousness in some way - some people say we already do that with devices that provide information, memory extension, and unbiquitous communications; but that's using a very broad definition of 'consciousness'.

My own personal belief, and I do know it's a "belief" is that the evolution of Consciousness has not ran it's course. And that what ever replaces Human Beings here on Earth will do so because of the evolution of Consciousness beyond the Human capabilities. I also have no problem jumping to the "belief" that life forms on other planets in the Universe have a greater Consciousness capability than do Human Beings.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

My own personal belief, and I do know it's a "belief" is that the evolution of Consciousness has not ran it's course. And that what ever replaces Human Beings here on Earth will do so because of the evolution of Consciousness beyond the Human capabilities. I also have no problem jumping to the "belief" that life forms on other planets in the Universe have a greater Consciousness capability than do Human Beings.

Fair enough, but what exactly do you mean by 'Consciousness beyond the Human capabilities' and 'greater Consciousness capability than do Human Beings' ?

What conscious capabilities in particuar? in what respect do you think consciousness can go 'beyond' the human?

In other words, what would this greater consciousness be capable of that human consciousness cannot do?

 

[dlamberth]

Fair enough, but what exactly do you mean by 'Consciousness beyond the Human capabilities' and 'greater Consciousness capability than do Human Beings' ?

Sorry to take so long getting back to this. This is a very busy time of year.

To your question, I don't know.
What I do know is that over this past 13.8 Billion years the Universe keeps moving beyond it's self as it evolves. And it keeps getting more complex. But I don't know what that means for Consciousness to go beyond itself and to be more complex. I don't think that's for any of us to know. All I feel pretty comfortable saying is that Consciousness, what ever it does evolve into, will be beyond Human capabilities.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

To your question, I don't know.
What I do know is that over this past 13.8 Billion years the Universe keeps moving beyond it's self as it evolves. And it keeps getting more complex. But I don't know what that means for Consciousness to go beyond itself and to be more complex. I don't think that's for any of us to know. All I feel pretty comfortable saying is that Consciousness, what ever it does evolve into, will be beyond Human capabilities.

So you don't know what it means, but you're comfortable saying it will happen... OK. That sounds suspiciously like an admission that you don't know what you're talking about

It may seem like biological evolution inevitably progresses to consciousness or greater consciousness, but that isn't necessarily the case; it depends on what promotes survival and reproduction. If it doesn't give us a significant reproductive advantage, it won't happen (unless we bioengineer it for ourselves). If we can survive and reproduce successfully with less than our current 'level of consciousness' (whatever that means), it could well degrade over generations to come.

Many creatures have evolved to a certain level of complexity and then evolved to be simpler again - and there are some that have a mobile larval stage with a nervous system but become sessile in the adult stage, losing their nervous system altogether - because they don't need it. So more complexity and/or more or better consciousness is not inevitable. As the saying goes, if you don't use it you lose it.