Conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

[tonychanyt]

See Does the Bible teach conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

 

[Clare73]

On the one hand, Revelation 14:

10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.​

It seems strange that the Lamb should be present to watch them being tormented forever and ever.

11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”​

Revelation 20:

10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

The above are pretty strong passages to support forever torment.

On the other hand, Revelation 21:

8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”​

Does second death imply conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

Concerning the wicked, Isaiah 26:

14 They are now dead, they live no more; their spirits do not rise. You punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.​

Matthew 10:

28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]."​

Only God is immortal. Believers possess immortality because they have the Paraclete. Non-believers do not have the Paraclete. They are not immortal, 1 Corinthians 15:

53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.​

Does hell imply conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

Many Christians today think so. To me, eternal conscious torment isn't a 100% sure thing. It has never been at any time in church history. There have always been some other views such as annihilationism.

Annihilationism has never been orthodox.

Some Christians argue for conscious torment for a finite period of time. In any case, I'm not the judge of people's eternal destination. I know that Jesus died for all my sins and I have eternal life in Christ.

Whatever will happen to the unbelievers, I rest in God that he will do the right thing—whatever that may be.

See also Eternal punishment vs eternal life

 

[BobRyan]

On the one hand, Revelation 14:

10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.​

It seems strange that the Lamb should be present to watch them being tormented forever and ever.

11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”​

Revelation 20:

10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

The above are pretty strong passages to support forever torment.

On the other hand, Revelation 21:

8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”​

Does second death imply conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

Concerning the wicked, Isaiah 26:

14 They are now dead, they live no more; their spirits do not rise. You punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.​

Matthew 10:

28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]."​

Only God is immortal. Believers possess immortality because they have the Paraclete. Non-believers do not have the Paraclete. They are not immortal, 1 Corinthians 15:

53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.​

Does hell imply conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

Many Christians today think so. To me, eternal conscious torment isn't a 100% sure thing. It has never been at any time in church history. There have always been some other views such as annihilationism.

Some Christians argue for conscious torment for a finite period of time. In any case, I'm not the judge of people's eternal destination. I know that Jesus died for all my sins and I have eternal life in Christ.

Whatever will happen to the unbelievers, I rest in God that he will do the right thing—whatever that may be.

See also Eternal punishment vs eternal life

As you point out

Matthew 10:
28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]." so that is "Fiery hell" where BOTH body AND soul are destroyed.

Ezek 18: 4 Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.

Even Lucifer, the "covering cherub" has that destiny.

Ezek 28:
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, you covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Your heart was haughty because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I threw you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 By the multitude of your wrongdoings,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

1 John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him.

Mal 4:1 “For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of armies, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branches. 2 But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and frolic like calves from the stall. 3 And you will crush the wicked underfoot, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I am preparing,” says the Lord of armies.

Rev 20:7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them

Of course some will counter that it is "not orthodox" to accept these texts as they read.

 

[Diamond72]

tormented forever and ever.

Forever means to the end of the ages. There are many scriptures that talk about complete destruction. This is referred to as the second death. (Revelation 20:14)

This comes from Dante Alighieri's epic poem Divine Comedy.

 

[tonychanyt]

Forever means to the end of the ages.

What does the end of the ages mean?

 

[Diamond72]

As you point out

Matthew 10:
28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]." so that is "Fiery hell" where BOTH body AND soul are destroyed.

Ezek 18: 4 Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.

Even Lucifer, the "covering cherub" has that destiny.

Ezek 28:
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, you covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Your heart was haughty because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I threw you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 By the multitude of your wrongdoings,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

1 John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him.

Mal 4:1 “For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of armies, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branches. 2 But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and frolic like calves from the stall. 3 And you will crush the wicked underfoot, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I am preparing,” says the Lord of armies.

Rev 20:7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them

Of course some will counter that it is "not orthodox" to accept these texts as they read.

We will all be tested by fire. Zechariah 13

8 And in all the land, declares the LORD, two-thirds will be cut off and perish, but a third will be left in it. 9 This third I will bring through the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on My name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’”

 

[Diamond72]

What does the end of the ages mean?

Revelation 21 "Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away,"

Isaiah 65:17 “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind."

 

[Diamond72]

There is no infinite period of time because time itself is finite.

The Bible starts off with the word Beginning. If time were infinite there would be no beginning.

 

[tonychanyt]

There is no infinite period of time because time itself is finite.

The Bible starts off with the word Beginning. If time were infinite there would be no beginning.

How many positive integers are there? What is the first one that begins the sequence?

 

[tonychanyt]

Revelation 21 "Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away,"

Isaiah 65:17 “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind."

View attachment 332992

I am slow. So what does the end of the ages mean? When we live in the new heavens and earth, when will be the end of the ages?

 

[Diamond72]

So what does the end of the ages mean?

The phrase "end of the ages" or "end of the world" is mentioned in the Bible in various contexts, particularly in relation to eschatological or end-time events. The exact meaning of this phrase can vary depending on the specific biblical passage and the theological perspective of the interpreter.

In Christian theology, the "end of the ages" generally refers to the culmination of human history and the final judgment or consummation of God's purposes for the world. It is associated with the second coming of Jesus Christ, the resurrection of the dead, and the establishment of God's eternal kingdom.

The concept of the "end of the ages" is often associated with passages such as Matthew 13:39-40, where Jesus speaks about the "end of the age" and the separation of the righteous from the wicked, and 1 Corinthians 10:11, which mentions that the events of the Old Testament took place as examples for those living at the "end of the ages."

 

[Der Alte]

As you point out

Matthew 10:
28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]." so that is "Fiery hell" where BOTH body AND soul are destroyed.
Ezek 18: 4 Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.
Even Lucifer, the "covering cherub" has that destiny.
Ezek 28:
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, you covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Your heart was haughty because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I threw you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 By the multitude of your wrongdoings,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”
1 John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him.
Mal 4:1 “For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of armies, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branches. 2 But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and frolic like calves from the stall. 3 And you will crush the wicked underfoot, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I am preparing,” says the Lord of armies.
Rev 20:7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them
Of course some will counter that it is "not orthodox" to accept these texts as they read.

You make a point about "some will counter that it is "not orthodox" to accept these texts as they read." May I suggest that you do that? Ezekiel 18 says that the son will not be punished for the sins of the father and vice versa. Ezekiel 28 is about the covering cherub NOT all mankind. 1 John "Eternal life" is as much about quality as it is duration. Malachi 4 refers to what happens one day in this life "they [the wicked] will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I am preparing,” There will be no ashes being trodden underfoot in paradise. Rev 20 the wicked being destroyed in this life outside the camp of the saints.

 

[BobRyan]

You make a point about "some will counter that it is "not orthodox" to accept these texts as they read." May I suggest that you do that? Ezekiel 18 says that the son will not be punished for the sins of the father and vice versa.

I strongly affirm that as well.
Ezek 18 says only the wicked die, and only the good live.
It also says in Ezek 18:4 "the soul that sins will die". Yet it shows forgiveness of sins for those who turn from rebellion. So this is in the context of the gospel.

Ezekiel 28 is about the covering cherub NOT all mankind.

agreed - it shows that Satan gets reduced to ashes and will "be no more"

1 John "Eternal life" is as much about quality as it is duration.

True and never is "eternal life" promised to the wicked.

In fact the Bible says that the wicked do not have eternal life abiding in them.

Malachi 4 refers to what happens one day in this life "they [the wicked] will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I am preparing,”

True -

There will be no ashes being trodden underfoot in paradise.

In the New Earth - dirt will also exist.

Rev 20 the wicked being destroyed in this life outside the camp of the saints.

true -

 

[BobRyan]

I am slow. So what does the end of the ages mean? When we live in the new heavens and earth, when will be the end of the ages?

Rev 19 - shows the appearing of Christ at the end of the world
Rev 20 - shows that 1000 years later the wicked are resurrected
Rev 21 - shows that the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven at that time. It is called the "camp of the saints" in Rev 20.

So Rev 19 is the end of this age - because at the appearing of Christ
1. The saints are raptured to heaven - 1 Thess 4:13-18, John 14:1-3, Matt 24:29-31
2. All the lost are slain - 2 Thess 1:5-8
3. So for that 1000 year period of time - on earth there are "no humans" as Jer 4:23-26 says.

=========================== Bible texts mentioned above

Matt 24:29-31
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

John 14:1-3
“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many rooms; if that were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to Myself, so that where I am, there you also will be.

1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.


What about the unsaved?

2 Thess 1:5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you indeed are suffering. 6 For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction

"the rest are destroyed" -- Rev 19


So do that leave "no humans" on earth during that 1000 years?

Jer 4:23-26
23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

=================

So then after all of that comes the Rev 20 events that include the lake of fire - the final destruction on Earth and then the Rev 21 New Earth

 

[Der Alte]

We will all be tested by fire. Zechariah 13
8 And in all the land, declares the LORD, two-thirds will be cut off and perish, but a third will be left in it. 9 This third I will bring through the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on My name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’”

Zechariah 13 refers only to the house of David.

Zec 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
Zec 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.​

 

[Der Alte]

I am retired X3 one might say that this is my primary activity. After reading many objections proclaiming that the Greek word "aionios never means eternal." I decided to review every occurrence of "aionios" in the NT.
“αιωνιος/aionios” occurs 71x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 3 times in the N.T. [1%]
“aionios” is correctly translated “eternal” 42 times in the N.T.[52%]
“aionios” is correctly translated “everlasting” 25 times in the N.T.[34.7%]
“aionios” is never translated “age(s)”
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, [38.8% of total] Jesus never used “aionios” to refer anything common, ordinary, mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
…..Some people claim that “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios never mean eternity/eternal,” because a few times they refer to something which is not eternal e.g. “world.”
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period less than eternal, as in the following NT verses. Below are the first 4 vss. in the list.

[1]Luke 1:33​

(33) And he shall reign [basileusei [Vb.] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias, [Nn.] there shall be no end.[telos]​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal, no end.

[2] John 6:58​

(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios] ​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live aionios” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite age, a finite period life is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3]John 3:15​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.​

[4] John 3:16​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite age, by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
The second part of this study where Peter, Paul and John defined "aionios" as "eternal."
Romans 5:21, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 16:26, 2 Cor 4:17-18, 2 Cor 5:1, 1 Tim 6:16, Gal 6:8, Rom 2:7, 1 Tim 1:17, Rom 5:21, Eph 3:21, Rom 6:23, Gal 6:8, Heb 7:24, 1 Pet 1:23, 1 Pet 5:10, Rev 14:11,

 

[tonychanyt]

Thanks for sharing

I am retired X3 one might say that this is my primary activity.

What is X3?

After reading many objections proclaiming that the Greek word "aionios never means eternal." I decided to review every occurrence of "aionios" in the NT.
“αιωνιος/aionios” occurs 71x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 3 times in the N.T. [1%]

1% of what?

 

[Der Alte]

Thanks for sharing
What is X3?
1% of what?

X3 = times 3 1% 0f the total 71x[times] the line directly above.

 

[tonychanyt]

X3 = times 3 1% 0f the total 71x[times] the line directly above.

Thanks for the clarifications.

Do you believe that second death means conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

 

[Der Alte]

Thanks for the clarifications.

Do you believe that second death means conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

While the lake of fire is called "the second death" twice Rev 20:14, Rev 21:8, no vs. says that anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies. Rev 20:10 says the beast, the devil and the false prophet, who was a person, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die they are tormented for ever and ever.
Also, last book in the Bible, last chapter, no more death, no more salvation

Revelation 22:11​

(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

Revelation 22:14-15​

(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.[New Jerusalem]​

(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​