Confusion over Quantum Physics

[Pac Shady]

Hey all, I have returned, but probably only briefly.

I have a topic that has just put a major dent in my faith in God today, and perhaps the main reason I'm here is for reassurance to repair that damage.

Some of you may have heard of the advances in Quantum Physics that suggest such things as telekinesis, telepathy, etc. can be explained scientifically using the theory of hyperdimensions and the possibilities of the human mind being able to connect to them to create, destroy, or alter reality. If not, Google it, some sites should come up with what I'm trying to get at. Apparently, the movie "What the Bleep Do We Know?" goes into a bit of detail about this kind of study as well.

Now, according to my faith in the Lord and the Scriptures, such things as telepathy and telekinesis etc. are associated with the Devil providing these "powers" to his followers, to convince them that they have power over reality that only God has. However, if these things have a truly scientific basis (I'm talking, "the way things just are" like the world being round, not theories such as whether evolution is true or not) then that would suggest they follow the laws of the physical world, laws that God put into place Himself. That in turn would suggest that telekinesis and telepathy, on a scientific level and not as an Occult practice, are in fact things God intended for us to use in our time here on earth. This was the first dent in my faith today.

The second dent came about from an extension of this train of thought. If such things are scientifically based, if our brains are in fact capable of accessing hyperdimensions and using them to alter our reality, then what's not to say that all our experiences in miracles and Godly manifestations of power are not simply our own created manifestations due to the alteration of things in the hyperdimensions? What if every experience we have had of God has not actually been from God, but from our own "willing" of such experiences to exist?

This is all just silly, stupid thinking on my part, which I tend to do every once in a while, and while I know there HAS to be an explanation for it, I just can't get over what Quantum Physics is suggesting about my God. Can God and Quantum Physics co-exist? Or is this kind of science to be denounced in faith?

'Shady

 

[Blades]

Hey all, I have returned, but probably only briefly.

I have a topic that has just put a major dent in my faith in God today, and perhaps the main reason I'm here is for reassurance to repair that damage.

Some of you may have heard of the advances in Quantum Physics that suggest such things as telekinesis, telepathy, etc. can be explained scientifically using the theory of hyperdimensions and the possibilities of the human mind being able to connect to them to create, destroy, or alter reality. If not, Google it, some sites should come up with what I'm trying to get at. Apparently, the movie "What the Bleep Do We Know?" goes into a bit of detail about this kind of study as well.

Now, according to my faith in the Lord and the Scriptures, such things as telepathy and telekinesis etc. are associated with the Devil providing these "powers" to his followers, to convince them that they have power over reality that only God has. However, if these things have a truly scientific basis (I'm talking, "the way things just are" like the world being round, not theories such as whether evolution is true or not) then that would suggest they follow the laws of the physical world, laws that God put into place Himself. That in turn would suggest that telekinesis and telepathy, on a scientific level and not as an Occult practice, are in fact things God intended for us to use in our time here on earth. This was the first dent in my faith today.

The second dent came about from an extension of this train of thought. If such things are scientifically based, if our brains are in fact capable of accessing hyperdimensions and using them to alter our reality, then what's not to say that all our experiences in miracles and Godly manifestations of power are not simply our own created manifestations due to the alteration of things in the hyperdimensions? What if every experience we have had of God has not actually been from God, but from our own "willing" of such experiences to exist?

This is all just silly, stupid thinking on my part, which I tend to do every once in a while, and while I know there HAS to be an explanation for it, I just can't get over what Quantum Physics is suggesting about my God. Can God and Quantum Physics co-exist? Or is this kind of science to be denounced in faith?

'Shady

Read the Book of Job sometime all of it.....every word.

Grace and Peace to you always

 

[depthdeception]

Hey all, I have returned, but probably only briefly.

I have a topic that has just put a major dent in my faith in God today, and perhaps the main reason I'm here is for reassurance to repair that damage.

Some of you may have heard of the advances in Quantum Physics that suggest such things as telekinesis, telepathy, etc. can be explained scientifically using the theory of hyperdimensions and the possibilities of the human mind being able to connect to them to create, destroy, or alter reality. If not, Google it, some sites should come up with what I'm trying to get at. Apparently, the movie "What the Bleep Do We Know?" goes into a bit of detail about this kind of study as well.

Now, according to my faith in the Lord and the Scriptures, such things as telepathy and telekinesis etc. are associated with the Devil providing these "powers" to his followers, to convince them that they have power over reality that only God has. However, if these things have a truly scientific basis (I'm talking, "the way things just are" like the world being round, not theories such as whether evolution is true or not) then that would suggest they follow the laws of the physical world, laws that God put into place Himself. That in turn would suggest that telekinesis and telepathy, on a scientific level and not as an Occult practice, are in fact things God intended for us to use in our time here on earth. This was the first dent in my faith today.

The second dent came about from an extension of this train of thought. If such things are scientifically based, if our brains are in fact capable of accessing hyperdimensions and using them to alter our reality, then what's not to say that all our experiences in miracles and Godly manifestations of power are not simply our own created manifestations due to the alteration of things in the hyperdimensions? What if every experience we have had of God has not actually been from God, but from our own "willing" of such experiences to exist?

This is all just silly, stupid thinking on my part, which I tend to do every once in a while, and while I know there HAS to be an explanation for it, I just can't get over what Quantum Physics is suggesting about my God. Can God and Quantum Physics co-exist? Or is this kind of science to be denounced in faith?

'Shady

I would suggest that you not allow "What the Bleep do We Know" to determine your conception of QP. This movie was produced by some major New Age advocates and much of it is simply an attempt to fuse QP with New Age thinking.

I would suggest checking out some more "objective" sources. For example, PBS's "NOVA" did a great introduction to Quantum Physics--it's called the "Elegant Universe" and you can actually watch the whole thing on NOVA's website.

Interestingly, Quantum Physics is actually opening up the dialogue between scientists and the religious community. If you are interested in some good reading material, I would suggest checking out Polkinghorne--he is an excellent Christian writer who has contributed greatly to the discussion of the relationship of science and faith, particularly in regards to QP.

I would hate to see your perception of QP to be limited to telepathy, telekinesis, etc. These are not really even a part of QP unto itself--rather, they represent the attempts of certain interested individuals to create a relationship between QP and New Age thinking.

Therefore, to answer your question, not only can "God and QP" coexist, but they do!

I hope that this is helpful.

 

[ethereous]

Who says telepathy and telekinesis are somehow against God?

 

[Jipsah]

Now, according to my faith in the Lord and the Scriptures, such things as telepathy and telekinesis etc. are associated with the Devil providing these "powers" to his followers, to convince them that they have power over reality that only God has.

That isn't from the Bible, that's just what some folks believe. There's no evidence that the Devil has any such power to grant, or that if he does have the power that he actually does grant it. There's also no evidence that anyone has any telepathic or telekinetic powers, so whether or not those powers are bestowed by the devil is moot if there's no evidence that anyone has those powers in the first place.

However, if these things have a truly scientific basis (I'm talking, "the way things just are" like the world being round, not theories such as whether evolution is true or not) then that would suggest they follow the laws of the physical world, laws that God put into place Himself.

There is no real evidence that those alleged powers have any basis in anything at all, because no one has ever exhibited any telepathic or telekinetic abilities under controlled testing.

That in turn would suggest that telekinesis and telepathy, on a scientific level and not as an Occult practice, are in fact things God intended for us to use in our time here on earth. This was the first dent in my faith today.

So your faith was dented by the posibility that some kind of powers that may or may not exist at all may be part of God's natural order rather rather than having been granted by the devil. Dang, it sounds like it doesn't take much to dent your faith! What does any of that stuff have to do with anything at all?

The second dent came about from an extension of this train of thought. If such things are scientifically based, if our brains are in fact capable of accessing hyperdimensions and using them to alter our reality, then what's not to say that all our experiences in miracles and Godly manifestations of power are not simply our own created manifestations due to the alteration of things in the hyperdimensions?

And if all the seas are filled with oysters, who's to say that we aren't descended from mollusks our own selves, and our concept of god merely a racial memory of a time before we doffed our shells and started driving Toyotas? I mean, hey, one flight of fancy is as good as, or as silly as, another.

Here's the plan:

1) Quit worrying about whether telepathy comes from God or the devil until someone establishes that it exists at all.

2) Don't attribute stuff to the Bible that isn't there. The Bible doesn't say anything about where telepathic powers come from because it doesn't say anything about anyone having telepathic powers at all.

3) Try and be like St. Paul, who said "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." Taking that position, and making that the center of your faith will restore the proper signal-to-noise ratio.

Peace, d00d.

 

[Jipsah]

Who says telepathy and telekinesis are somehow against God?

Who says they even exist?

 

[Dondi]

I've seen the "What the Bleep...?" movie and read parts of the book, but it all seems like new age hogwash cloaked in quantum physics. The way they explain it is confusing and often to fantasical.

But I have been reading a book called "The Hidden Face of God" by Gerald Schroeder. Schroeder holds a Ph.D from MIT, attaining degrees in chemical engineering and earth and planetary sciences. He has a background in physics and biology. He gets into quantum phsyics thing, but he's a bit more down to earth than the "What the Bleep...?" folks. He explains things is simple to understand terms. He actually has good insights on the aspects of Creation and has actually revitalized my faith in God in regards to Creation. He shows how there has to be a wisdom behind the formation of the universe, in the quantum physics behind it at the atomic level, in the molecular biology in which living systems are created, and in how the different organs of the body and mind function.

http://www.geraldschroeder.com/

 

[Oblio]

The Science of God is a nice little Christian book that does a reasonable job reconcilling Scripture with scientific knowledge. While it addresses and reconciles more macrocosmic issues (Big Bang, relativistic and Biblical time, evolution ...) than the more esoteric modern theories, IMO it would assuage any fear you might have that science is somehow (or could possibly) discrediting God.

 

[Dondi]

The Science of God is a nice little Christian book that does a reasonable job reconcilling Scripture with scientific knowledge. While it addresses and reconciles more macrocosmic issues (Big Bang, relativistic and Biblical time, evolution ...) than the more esoteric modern theories, IMO it would assuage any fear you might have that science is somehow (or could possibly) discrediting God.

Notably by the same author as I've mentioned.

 

[intricatic]

I hate to break it to you, but from former experience in the Occult, and from watching that movie with my father a while back, it seems that the movie was created by Discordians [Google > Fnord] to confuse people, and has almost zero scientific credibility. [note, I am not saying it is, just that it strikes me as unusual how close the two philosophies are, as well as how absolutely absurd when contrasted with current scientific knowledge].

It's actually quite amusing. If you want to read some serious books on how the brain operates [although it will lack all the absurd notions of telekenesis and psychic powers that many new-agers like to chime on], pick up a neurophysiology journal.

 

[Daibhidh]

I admit first of all that I have not read all the posts in this thread.

So to answer directly to the original point posed: I find it very disheartening indeed; this weighing science against faith. There will always be a great, incmprhensible deal that the one cannot describe the other. Both fields were never given foundation for mutual understanding.

When I say it is disheartening, I mean simply that I find it sad that someone could feel there faith in God waver because they have discovered that the human mind is capable of so much more. -Ofcourse it is; that brain which we all share! Was it not, after having drawn the blue print with a mighty and artistic hand, sculpted by our God himself? Is it not the earthly means by which to house our "mind" (which, as a self proclaimed "holistic christian" I believe to be the case) so that we may use it in conjuncture with our free will? It's design and capability, not to mention possibility, is surely to be revered and not feared!? It is a marvelous machine, and it's powers should and will only be viewed as that of "witchcraft" and other silliness by those of a narrow perspective. There is a whole world (indeed, universe) of metaphysical possibilities out there, intended for us by God, for us to explore and experience. The bible, althought the word of God, will always be a human product, not a divine product in the very definite sense of the term. It is ancient Israels law, as it was by them written; far before advances in science would have allowed further thinking.

Be thankful for the possibilites the man up stairs has given us.

 

[wonder111]

i totally hear you...i'm interested in quantum physics, but that 'documentary' what the bleep do we know is definitely some twist on new age.....i thought it was terrible

 

[Dondi]

i totally hear you...i'm interested in quantum physics, but that 'documentary' what the bleep do we know is definitely some twist on new age.....i thought it was terrible

Well, where it lost me is that they had an interview with JZ Knight in the movie, who supposedly channels a 3000 year old ancient "spirit-warrior" named Ramtha, who supposedly was from Atlantis.

Allllllrighty then.

 

[tkoman]

Well, where it lost me is that they had an interview with JZ Knight in the movie, who supposedly channels a 3000 year old ancient "spirit-warrior" named Ramtha, who supposedly was from Atlantis.

Allllllrighty then.

No really - it's true

 

[Pac Shady]

I should point out, I haven't actually SEEN "What the Bleep...", I simply heard this movie speaks on the subject.

The first time I heard of this field of Quantum Physics was on a show on Cable, there was a documentary regarding similar things mentioned previously. They even mentioned something about using the mind and/or hyperdimensions to time travel. It kind of concerned me, but I all but forgot about it when in a class at uni the subject was brought up again due to this movie.

There are also many other sources of this kind of thing too. These are not the only ones. And I'm sure not all of them are run by New Agers. If they were, then I would have no problem ditching anything said. But if they're purely clinical, non-biased sources, then it's gonna be much harder to simply ignore.

Thanks to those so far who have contributed helpful advice and sources for me to read to help regain my faith. No thanks to those of you who simply insulted my faith by saying how easy it apparently was for it to be hindered. It's those kind of things that made me leave this board months ago, and those kind of things that remind me there are still enough reasons to not want to return here.

'Shady

 

[Jig]

That isn't from the Bible, that's just what some folks believe. There's no evidence that the Devil has any such power to grant, or that if he does have the power that he actually does grant it.

Well, we do see Satan (the Dragon in Revelation) grant power, a throne, and great authority to the Beast (Anti-Christ). [Revelation 13:2] We also see that the False Prophet at the side of the Breat is able to profrom signs and such so...this power has to be coming from someone/thing other than God.

Rev. 13:13
13He (performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men.


We also know that Satan (the Tempter and Devil) took Christ to a very high mountain and "and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory;
and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me."" [Matt. 4:8-9]

We don't see Jesus refuting the fact he (Satan) had the power to grant such authority and power but we only see a stern rebukement of Satan's advancment for worship.

Edit: We also see that it may even be possible for demons to bring forth some kind of power in possessed persons, such as fortune telling.

Acts 16:16
16It happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a slave-girl having a spirit of divination met us, who was bringing her masters much profit by fortune-telling.

 

[Bradford]

Read a REAL book on the subject.

And the Multi-Worlds Hypothosis, while sounding interesting, is about the farthest fetched theory on the books today. I'd say it's more likely that the world is really flat than the MWH is true... It's good for making shows like "Sliders" or B-movies- not so good for real physics.

 

[Pac Shady]

Read a REAL book on the subject.

And the Multi-Worlds Hypothosis, while sounding interesting, is about the farthest fetched theory on the books today. I'd say it's more likely that the world is really flat than the MWH is true... It's good for making shows like "Sliders" or B-movies- not so good for real physics.

I think you're referring to my mention of hyperdimensions. These are different from what you think of with "dimensions" like in Sliders. We live in a three-dimensional universe, based on three axis that can reference every physical object we perceive. However, mathematics allows the possibility of a number of other dimensions, or axis, along with these first three. These are referred to as "hyperdimensions", ie. they are dimensions above or added onto the primary three we deal with. Objects can be made mathematically using these dimensions. Do a Google search for a shape called a "hypercube", also known as a "tesseract" for an example of a hyperdimensional object.

'Shady

 

[Bradford]

I think you're referring to my mention of hyperdimensions. These are different from what you think of with "dimensions" like in Sliders. We live in a three-dimensional universe, based on three axis that can reference every physical object we perceive. However, mathematics allows the possibility of a number of other dimensions, or axis, along with these first three. These are referred to as "hyperdimensions", ie. they are dimensions above or added onto the primary three we deal with. Objects can be made mathematically using these dimensions. Do a Google search for a shape called a "hypercube", also known as a "tesseract" for an example of a hyperdimensional object.

'Shady

I know. That's the legitimate use of the term- that actually has some background in real physics.

The MWH is the home of kook physics- but it's also a branch of the larger QP.

 

[gaweatherford]

I just can't get over what Quantum Physics is suggesting about my God. Can God and Quantum Physics co-exist? Or is this kind of science to be denounced in faith?

Quantum physics deals with the incredibly small. Science "tries" to understand all the rules and laws within the the atomic level in a way where it can be mastered (so to speak), and this is what Quantum physics is. Basically, all the laws of normal physics, which can be mastered into prediction are completely differant to the laws that govern the atomic level. The realm for which this study exist is just so small, and unorganized. It basically seems to be the first step above nothing at all (and therefore the great intrigue!). It actually is NOT the last frontier to conquer though!
Nothing is the last frontier! And, if we find ourselves bowing to Quantum physics, as to render God's non-existence, then we're expecting nothing to be very simple when we can't even articulate exactly what it is!