Confused

[miamited]

Hi ouranapolis,

Why don't you accept that you've actually been healed and restored by the working of the Holy Spirit and not giving that glory to a particular denomination of a fellowship group? Then go and fellowship with the group that you feel is most inline with what the Scriptures teach.

You might want to consider that people get 'healed' from such sins as alcoholism and pornography and sexual perversion and anger and hatefulness in many different groups. There are rehabilitation programs that teach that God is the one who can change us and there are rehabilitation programs that teach that we can heal ourselves. Each of them having some degree of success.

Let's suppose that a man found healing in a group that taught the 'you can heal yourself' method. Does that mean that he shouldn't seek after God? My point being, that just because you found healing in a particular fellowship doesn't necessarily mean that such a fellowship is the best place to learn about what it means to love God and to follow after Him.

My encouragement. Give God the glory for your healing and not a denomination, and continue your life of seeking after God wherever you find His truth is best taught and practiced.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[ouranopolis]

Hi ouranapolis,

Why don't you accept that you've actually been healed and restored by the working of the Holy Spirit and not giving that glory to a particular denomination of a fellowship group? Then go and fellowship with the group that you feel is most inline with what the Scriptures teach.

You might want to consider that people get 'healed' from such sins as alcoholism and pornography and sexual perversion and anger and hatefulness in many different groups. There are rehabilitation programs that teach that God is the one who can change us and there are rehabilitation programs that teach that we can heal ourselves. Each of them having some degree of success.

Let's suppose that a man found healing in a group that taught the 'you can heal yourself' method. Does that mean that he shouldn't seek after God? My point being, that just because you found healing in a particular fellowship doesn't necessarily mean that such a fellowship is the best place to learn about what it means to love God and to follow after Him.

My encouragement. Give God the glory for your healing and not a denomination, and continue your life of seeking after God wherever you find His truth is best taught and practiced.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Thanks Ted that is helpful , it makes a lot of sense . Maybe its a kind of perfectionism , idolatry if you like that I have slipped into in seeing for the one church which teaches everything perfectly and ticks all my boxes. I realise how crazy that is when writing it - problem is my wife feels exactly the same ! I am pondering your words today and praying for sure

 

[Silverback]

Hi all . I need some assistance. Long story but I came to faith in a bible believing conservative evangelical church . However I realised although I had a genuine faith , my life changed little , and saw few fruits of the spirit. I explored the ancient church and was baptised orthodox . through spiritual disciplines fasting set prayer times etc my life was revolutionised. My alcoholism ceased , along with a host of other big sin issues in my life. However I live in UK and wife is a strong evangelical I simply couldn't sustain travelling to attend an orthodox church with a wife dead against the style of liturgy . also the church I was in basically crumbled due to sin in leadership .
We compromised and went to a supposedly conservative Anglican church which turns out to be against the ordination of women but rejects key biblical truths which is odd. We left that church to find another with different issues . the only church we have found which preaches young earth creation and a literal Adam and eve , belief in hell as a real place and salvation through Christ , marriage between one man and one woman , homosexuality as sin - is a very " low church " evangelical church .
My wife loves that church and I do love the preaching but - what healed me was orthodox discipline , the Eucharist which I believe in an orthodox sense as being worthy of reverance , I love liturgy and feel close to God in a liturgy which I believe is right worship .these are all lacking in this new church which preaches a pure gospel but has no liturgy , the Eucharist is quite literally thrown to the floor at times during the service and none there seems to think like me that actually fasting and being disciplined is of any benefit , because Christ did it all so we can just kick back .
What I essentially saying is this . I need a church which actually believes the bible , and holds orthodox / catholic liturgical style. It seems most orthodox and catholic groups have long ago abandoned believing the bible is true and kind of merge and evolutionist approach to life with some pomp on a Sunday . Frankly the don't seem to take their faith very seriously. I have read seraph rose extensively and he holds my views - however I m at a loss to find any church resembling his remaining .
So please help this christian who is close to abandoning church altogether. Do I just accept that I m now an evangelical and abandon my previous approach which helped me so . or do I find a traditional catholic group . I don't know which way to turn all I know is I live Jesus and am getting fed up with all this confusion ! Help !

I can't speak for The UK specifically, but liturgical worship among protestants are usually Lutheran, and some reformed denominations, additionally, the Anglicans if you consider them to be protestant.

it may sound bad, but if I wanted to attend another church, and my spouse is against it, then we would have to agree to disagree, and go to different churches.

I agree with you on liturgy, I am Lutheran.

 

[miamited]

Hi ouranapolis,

Thanks for your reply. Just for laughs, let me give you my perspective on this 'one true church' dogma. There is, in fact, only one true church. However, it is not defined by some denominational group now existing upon the earth. The 'church', the 'ekklesia' are the called out ones. We can't find them, and they won't be defined by any ecclesiastical body of one particular denomination. Now, a particular denomination may have more of those who are of the one true church than some other denomination, based on how faithful any particular fellowship is to the true teachings and instructions of the Scriptures.

Some fellowships may teach things that are pretty converse to what the Scriptures actually teach us, and that particular fellowship is, by nature of the teaching, not going to have many among its members who are of the one true church. This is described for us in Jesus' letters to the seven churches in John's day. Of the seven churches, most had things that Jesus was not particularly pleased with and a few for whom he actually spoke strong rebuke against. He actually labeled one the place where Satan meets.

So, from what I understand from the Scriptures. we shouldn't be trying to find some perfect denomination because it likely isn't out there. Our faith, our individual love for and relationship with God, His Son and His Spirit is a purely personal achievement. A good fellowship with good solid Scriptural teaching can certainly help one to maintain his faith and will also, from time to time, convict one of sin in their life that needs to be repented of.

However, I'm firmly convinced and convicted that on the day of God's judgment; that day on which He commands His Son to go get His children, there will be people from many denominations who will receive the promise of God's eternal life with Him. Those will be the people, despite or because of the particular denominational teachings, have established a relationship of love and respect and understanding for the things of God, and whose names Jesus has written down in his Book of Life. The book that God is going to open and draw His finger down the list of hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions of names to see if anyone's name is found there.

The 'one true church' is the body of born again believers living upon the earth at any one time of our existence upon this earth. It changes regularly as people die and others come to know the truth. A part of it can be found in every tribe and every tongue and every nation and it is not constrained by any man made denominational designation of any particular fellowship of worshipers.

Now, if I am correct, then the group that you choose to fellowship with isn't nearly as important as the understanding of your heart towards God. As I said, find a fellowship that you believe follows the teachings of the Scriptures. Personally, I have found, as a denominational group, that baptist fellowships are generally more in line with what I believe the Scriptures teach.

They don't stand on a lot of pomp and circumstance and tradition. No fancy clothes to indicate that one is better than the rest or more godly than the others. They seem to be a fairly general group of people who are seeking after God and the teaching seems to be fairly well in line with the Scriptures. However, each fellowship stands on its own. I have also found some non-denominational fellowships to be pretty accurate as to what I think the Scriptures teach us.

Personally, and let me repeat that this is just my personal understanding, a lot of those who seem to find comfort and solace in the 'ceremonial' trappings of orthodox and Catholic and such denominations, think that they must be doing it right because there is so much mysticism and ceremonial trappings and flowing robes and special garments and golden chalices and such. However, when I read through the Scriptures, I find that such religious practice is more in keeping with Judaism than christianity.

Somehow, I just can't envision Paul or Barnabas journeying around the land with special garb that they put on to go stand before people and preach the gospel. I don't find much evidence that as the first disciples planted 'churches' in various cities that they made any comments about how the leaders had to be dressed special or that there needed to be some special accouterments in order to fulfill the Lord's Supper. I can't find a single reference in the new covenant writings of incense being used in the christian worship practices. Perhaps it's sad that we don't find much in describing the actual meetings of the first christian believers. On the other hand, it could be that the reason that we don't find any lengthy address of 'how' we are to worship and 'what' we should be wearing does actually tell us a lot. It tells us that these are things that aren't important to God. The Scriptures tell us that what God wants are those with pure hearts who desire after Him. None of that comes by following some rote practice of pomp and circumstance.

These all seem to be things that had been put into play in Jewish worship and Jesus rebuked them for establishing tradition above the commands of God. Me, I like simple, heartfelt worship. When I sing praises to God, I actually am singing praises to God. I don't care what people think of what I wear to worship. Jesus also rebuked those who thought that they were going out to see fine clothes when they were seeking after John in the wilderness. It's not about clothing. It's not about fine tableware or gold emblems and wall hangings. It's about your heart and your love for your Creator and God.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[Silverback]

Hi ouranapolis,

Thanks for your reply. Just for laughs, let me give you my perspective on this 'one true church' dogma. There is, in fact, only one true church. However, it is not defined by some denominational group now existing upon the earth. The 'church', the 'ekklesia' are the called out ones. We can't find them, and they won't be defined by any ecclesiastical body of one particular denomination. Now, a particular denomination may have more of those who are of the one true church than some other denomination, based on how faithful any particular fellowship is to the true teachings and instructions of the Scriptures.

Some fellowships may teach things that are pretty converse to what the Scriptures actually teach us, and that particular fellowship is, by nature of the teaching, not going to have many among its members who are of the one true church. This is described for us in Jesus' letters to the seven churches in John's day. Of the seven churches, most had things that Jesus was not particularly pleased with and a few for whom he actually spoke strong rebuke against. He actually labeled one the place where Satan meets.

So, from what I understand from the Scriptures. we shouldn't be trying to find some perfect denomination because it likely isn't out there. Our faith, our individual love for and relationship with God, His Son and His Spirit is a purely personal achievement. A good fellowship with good solid Scriptural teaching can certainly help one to maintain his faith and will also, from time to time, convict one of sin in their life that needs to be repented of.

However, I'm firmly convinced and convicted that on the day of God's judgment; that day on which He commands His Son to go get His children, there will be people from many denominations who will receive the promise of God's eternal life with Him. Those will be the people, despite or because of the particular denominational teachings, have established a relationship of love and respect and understanding for the things of God, and whose names Jesus has written down in his Book of Life. The book that God is going to open and draw His finger down the list of hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions of names to see if anyone's name is found there.

The 'one true church' is the body of born again believers living upon the earth at any one time of our existence upon this earth. It changes regularly as people die and others come to know the truth. A part of it can be found in every tribe and every tongue and every nation and it is not constrained by any man made denominational designation of any particular fellowship of worshipers.

Now, if I am correct, then the group that you choose to fellowship with isn't nearly as important as the understanding of your heart towards God. As I said, find a fellowship that you believe follows the teachings of the Scriptures. Personally, I have found, as a denominational group, that baptist fellowships are generally more in line with what I believe the Scriptures teach.

They don't stand on a lot of pomp and circumstance and tradition. No fancy clothes to indicate that one is better than the rest or more godly than the others. They seem to be a fairly general group of people who are seeking after God and the teaching seems to be fairly well in line with the Scriptures. However, each fellowship stands on its own. I have also found some non-denominational fellowships to be pretty accurate as to what I think the Scriptures teach us.

Personally, and let me repeat that this is just my personal understanding, a lot of those who seem to find comfort and solace in the 'ceremonial' trappings of orthodox and Catholic and such denominations, think that they must be doing it right because there is so much mysticism and ceremonial trappings and flowing robes and special garments and golden chalices and such. However, when I read through the Scriptures, I find that such religious practice is more in keeping with Judaism than christianity.

Somehow, I just can't envision Paul or Barnabas journeying around the land with special garb that they put on to go stand before people and preach the gospel. I don't find much evidence that as the first disciples planted 'churches' in various cities that they made any comments about how the leaders had to be dressed special or that there needed to be some special accouterments in order to fulfill the Lord's Supper. I can't find a single reference in the new covenant writings of incense being used in the christian worship practices. Perhaps it's sad that we don't find much in describing the actual meetings of the first christian believers. On the other hand, it could be that the reason that we don't find any lengthy address of 'how' we are to worship and 'what' we should be wearing does actually tell us a lot. It tells us that these are things that aren't important to God. The Scriptures tell us that what God wants are those with pure hearts who desire after Him. None of that comes by following some rote practice of pomp and circumstance.

These all seem to be things that had been put into play in Jewish worship and Jesus rebuked them for establishing tradition above the commands of God. Me, I like simple, heartfelt worship. When I sing praises to God, I actually am singing praises to God. I don't care what people think of what I wear to worship. Jesus also rebuked those who thought that they were going out to see fine clothes when they were seeking after John in the wilderness. It's not about clothing. It's not about fine tableware or gold emblems and wall hangings. It's about your heart and your love for your Creator and God.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

You are correct, there is no commandment to wear vestments, use incense, or, have a liturgy. Part of it is tradition, and part is to do things decently, and in order. I think it falls within christian liberty, it is not forbidden, nor commanded. I prefer liturgical worship myself, I attended several Bible Churches during my early journey to christianity, with one exception, they all felt empty, 20 minute sermon, 20 minutes of singing, and 20 minutes of business, that sadly focused on "accounting" most of the time. I understand about stewardship, but, not every week.

 

[Foxfyre]

Hi all . I need some assistance. Long story but I came to faith in a bible believing conservative evangelical church . However I realised although I had a genuine faith , my life changed little , and saw few fruits of the spirit. I explored the ancient church and was baptised orthodox . through spiritual disciplines fasting set prayer times etc my life was revolutionised. My alcoholism ceased , along with a host of other big sin issues in my life. However I live in UK and wife is a strong evangelical I simply couldn't sustain travelling to attend an orthodox church with a wife dead against the style of liturgy . also the church I was in basically crumbled due to sin in leadership .
We compromised and went to a supposedly conservative Anglican church which turns out to be against the ordination of women but rejects key biblical truths which is odd. We left that church to find another with different issues . the only church we have found which preaches young earth creation and a literal Adam and eve , belief in hell as a real place and salvation through Christ , marriage between one man and one woman , homosexuality as sin - is a very " low church " evangelical church .
My wife loves that church and I do love the preaching but - what healed me was orthodox discipline , the Eucharist which I believe in an orthodox sense as being worthy of reverance , I love liturgy and feel close to God in a liturgy which I believe is right worship .these are all lacking in this new church which preaches a pure gospel but has no liturgy , the Eucharist is quite literally thrown to the floor at times during the service and none there seems to think like me that actually fasting and being disciplined is of any benefit , because Christ did it all so we can just kick back .
What I essentially saying is this . I need a church which actually believes the bible , and holds orthodox / catholic liturgical style. It seems most orthodox and catholic groups have long ago abandoned believing the bible is true and kind of merge and evolutionist approach to life with some pomp on a Sunday . Frankly the don't seem to take their faith very seriously. I have read seraph rose extensively and he holds my views - however I m at a loss to find any church resembling his remaining .
So please help this christian who is close to abandoning church altogether. Do I just accept that I m now an evangelical and abandon my previous approach which helped me so . or do I find a traditional catholic group . I don't know which way to turn all I know is I live Jesus and am getting fed up with all this confusion ! Help !

I think we have different denominations because some of us love the old-fashioned worship service, the comfort of reciting the Lord's Prayer, the Apostles or Nicene creed (or both), the colors and majesty of the decor, the ritual of the mass or the Eucharist or Holy Communion, the kneeling rails, the wonderful pipe organ, the traditional hymns, the choir resplendent in their formal robes, the candles, the incense, the comfort and security of tradition and universally shared prayers, creeds, and disciplines.

And some want the austere setting with little or no music, maybe a piano or no instrumental music at all, silent prayer, no prescribed creeds, no ornate trappings or other 'idolatrous' symbolism, etc.

Some want clearly Bible based sermons and structure and some embrace the leading of the Spirit wherever He takes them.

And some want the free wheeling experiential worship with a full praise band complete with guitars and drums and lots of "AMENS!" and joyful clapping and exuberance.

And some hit a happy compromise (for them) somewhere in the midst of all of that.

You obviously prefer the more traditional worship service--so do I though I am not dogmatic about it and can easily worship with any of the other traditions. And your wife is one who prefers the more 'low church' experiential worship service.

You shouldn't beat you or her up over it. I don't know if there is a solution for the two of you--it is good that you are looking for one though. Please don't even consider giving up on the Church or each other. Pray about it and keep looking for a reasonable compromise that you both can live with and for God to lead you to that compromise.

 

[PaulCyp1]

In other words, you have decided in advance what you want to believe, and found a church that teaches what you want to hear. Jesus Christ founded one Church, said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". If you accept what the Bible teaches, and more importantly the promises of Jesus Christ Himself, there is no option but to be a member of His one Church. The Catholic Church has abandoned the Bible?????? Why would it abandon a book of its own writings, compiled by its own bishops, at the direction of the Pope? Catholics hear several scriptures read at every Mass they attend, designed so that they hear virtually the entire Bible over every 3 year cycle. Plus of course reading God's word in their own homes. However, the essential thing is not simply reading the Bible. Protestants do that, and they have fragmented into thousands of unauthorized conflicting manmade denominations teaching thousands of contradictory and therefore false beliefs in just a few hundred years. The essential thing is having access to accurate and authoritative interpretation of the Bible, and the only place that can be found is in the one Church Jesus founded, to which He promised the fullness of truth until the end of time. Which is why that one Church remains one in belief, one in teaching, one in worship, one in biblical understanding after 2,000 years, with no conflicting denominations.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I have never heard of the Catholic church abandoning that the Bible is true! The whole Catholic mass is 'Biblical'. All the Catholics i know 'Do' take their faith seriously.

Please find a description of a worship like the catholics in the Bible. Incense, Mary worship, candles, etc

 

[mark kennedy]

Hi all . I need some assistance. Long story but I came to faith in a bible believing conservative evangelical church . However I realised although I had a genuine faith , my life changed little , and saw few fruits of the spirit. I explored the ancient church and was baptised orthodox . through spiritual disciplines fasting set prayer times etc my life was revolutionised. My alcoholism ceased , along with a host of other big sin issues in my life. However I live in UK and wife is a strong evangelical I simply couldn't sustain travelling to attend an orthodox church with a wife dead against the style of liturgy . also the church I was in basically crumbled due to sin in leadership .
We compromised and went to a supposedly conservative Anglican church which turns out to be against the ordination of women but rejects key biblical truths which is odd. We left that church to find another with different issues . the only church we have found which preaches young earth creation and a literal Adam and eve , belief in hell as a real place and salvation through Christ , marriage between one man and one woman , homosexuality as sin - is a very " low church " evangelical church .
My wife loves that church and I do love the preaching but - what healed me was orthodox discipline , the Eucharist which I believe in an orthodox sense as being worthy of reverance , I love liturgy and feel close to God in a liturgy which I believe is right worship .these are all lacking in this new church which preaches a pure gospel but has no liturgy , the Eucharist is quite literally thrown to the floor at times during the service and none there seems to think like me that actually fasting and being disciplined is of any benefit , because Christ did it all so we can just kick back .
What I essentially saying is this . I need a church which actually believes the bible , and holds orthodox / catholic liturgical style. It seems most orthodox and catholic groups have long ago abandoned believing the bible is true and kind of merge and evolutionist approach to life with some pomp on a Sunday . Frankly the don't seem to take their faith very seriously. I have read seraph rose extensively and he holds my views - however I m at a loss to find any church resembling his remaining .
So please help this christian who is close to abandoning church altogether. Do I just accept that I m now an evangelical and abandon my previous approach which helped me so . or do I find a traditional catholic group . I don't know which way to turn all I know is I live Jesus and am getting fed up with all this confusion ! Help !

Just reading through this once, it sounds like you need to be in an Orthodox church. You can forget finding a perfect church, the clergy have been soaked in liberal theology too long for that. Evangelicals can get the basic doctrine straight but are often ambivalent toward serious study. The Orthodox have long emphasised discipline, ascetism it's called. It just sounds like that's what you need, there are a number of ways of learning evangelical theology, personal study being a common one. While this is all easier said then done I think you need what the Orthodox have to offer, don't give up on that. It just sounds to me like the key to the whole thing, commit yourself to the Lord, he will make your paths straight. That's just one guy's opinion, I pray God's grace and strength for the journey, I believe you can come through this stronger then you ever thought possible.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Lost4words]

Please find a description of a worship like the catholics in the Bible. Incense, Mary worship, candles, etc

You need to do some research my friend. Its there!

The Catholic mass is very Biblical indeed.

The Mass Is Profoundly Biblical | Catholic Answers

 

[paul becke]

Hi all . I need some assistance. Long story but I came to faith in a bible believing conservative evangelical church . However I realised although I had a genuine faith , my life changed little , and saw few fruits of the spirit. I explored the ancient church and was baptised orthodox . through spiritual disciplines fasting set prayer times etc my life was revolutionised. My alcoholism ceased , along with a host of other big sin issues in my life. However I live in UK and wife is a strong evangelical I simply couldn't sustain travelling to attend an orthodox church with a wife dead against the style of liturgy . also the church I was in basically crumbled due to sin in leadership .
We compromised and went to a supposedly conservative Anglican church which turns out to be against the ordination of women but rejects key biblical truths which is odd. We left that church to find another with different issues . the only church we have found which preaches young earth creation and a literal Adam and eve , belief in hell as a real place and salvation through Christ , marriage between one man and one woman , homosexuality as sin - is a very " low church " evangelical church .
My wife loves that church and I do love the preaching but - what healed me was orthodox discipline , the Eucharist which I believe in an orthodox sense as being worthy of reverance , I love liturgy and feel close to God in a liturgy which I believe is right worship .these are all lacking in this new church which preaches a pure gospel but has no liturgy , the Eucharist is quite literally thrown to the floor at times during the service and none there seems to think like me that actually fasting and being disciplined is of any benefit , because Christ did it all so we can just kick back .
What I essentially saying is this . I need a church which actually believes the bible , and holds orthodox / catholic liturgical style. It seems most orthodox and catholic groups have long ago abandoned believing the bible is true and kind of merge and evolutionist approach to life with some pomp on a Sunday . Frankly the don't seem to take their faith very seriously. I have read seraph rose extensively and he holds my views - however I m at a loss to find any church resembling his remaining .
So please help this christian who is close to abandoning church altogether. Do I just accept that I m now an evangelical and abandon my previous approach which helped me so . or do I find a traditional catholic group . I don't know which way to turn all I know is I live Jesus and am getting fed up with all this confusion ! Help !

Church or no church, get used to the idea that people are all nut-jobs, rogues and vagabonds. Why ? Because you are, too. As am I. (That's how I know. We're all made of the same stuff, after all). So, I don't set any store on my fellow- congregants, any more than on myself. Of course, I love their kindness and am hurt by their unkindness, but it's all part of 'life's rich pageant'. Fortunately, we can't eliminate nature all together. It's the raw material such grace as we garner is built upon.

For me, the Mass is like being on parade in the army, very very formal. But when it comes to the sign of peace to neighbours and friends, near and far, even by signalling, I am aware that I am surrounded, not by nut-jobs, rogues and vagabonds, but by other Christs! What greater occasion could there be for joy, nay, jubilation even, than seeing yourself surrounded by your earthly holy family, all as keen as you to cosy up to God, to be on the right side of our older brother. So, the throne-room sensitivity, legitimately in my view, should give way to this communal fraternal joy. However, I often see it criticised as irreverance before the throne of the Almighty. Much the same with Confession. St Padre Pio said it should be an occasion of joy.

Anyway, sorry for the digression, but I think you should continue to pursue a modest asceticism (unless called to a more stringent one - mortification of the will is the best of all) and development of your 'interior life', your prayer-life. Nothing to stop you attending the Evangelical church with your wife, as well, if you gain something different from it. But don't give up on the sacramental, Orthodox/Catholic churches on account of sinful leadership in one church, if it is possible for you to find another one, not too fat away. That's my $0.002, anyway. good luck to you both.

 

[ouranopolis]

In other words, you have decided in advance what you want to believe, and found a church that teaches what you want to hear. Jesus Christ founded one Church, said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". If you accept what the Bible teaches, and more importantly the promises of Jesus Christ Himself, there is no option but to be a member of His one Church. The Catholic Church has abandoned the Bible?????? Why would it abandon a book of its own writings, compiled by its own bishops, at the direction of the Pope? Catholics hear several scriptures read at every Mass they attend, designed so that they hear virtually the entire Bible over every 3 year cycle. Plus of course reading God's word in their own homes. However, the essential thing is not simply reading the Bible. Protestants do that, and they have fragmented into thousands of unauthorized conflicting manmade denominations teaching thousands of contradictory and therefore false beliefs in just a few hundred years. The essential thing is having access to accurate and authoritative interpretation of the Bible, and the only place that can be found is in the one Church Jesus founded, to which He promised the fullness of truth until the end of time. Which is why that one Church remains one in belief, one in teaching, one in worship, one in biblical understanding after 2,000 years, with no conflicting denominations.

Ok so " abandoned the bible " is possibly too strong language. The issue is that apart fr traditional catholics there appears to be a push towards universal salvation , appeasement of Islam and even statements that Muslims are going to heaven . Also apparently a belief in evolution which really does totally undermine the need for a saviour. No adam and eve , no fall no sim no need for Jesus. I respect the catholic and orthodox churches greatly , i m even considering joining a more conservative group of Catholic or orthodox congregations. But when I say abandoned the bible what I meant was the above , watering things down .

 

[ouranopolis]

Church or no church, get used to the idea that people are all nut-jobs, rogues and vagabonds. Why ? Because you are, too. As am I. (That's how I know. We're all made of the same stuff, after all). So, I don't set any store on my fellow- congregants, any more than on myself. Of course, I love their kindness and am hurt by their unkindness, but it's all part of 'life's rich pageant'. Fortunately, we can't eliminate nature all together. It's the raw material such grace as we garner is built upon.

For me, the Mass is like being on parade in the army, very very formal. But when it comes to the sign of peace to neighbours and friends, near and far, even by signalling, I am aware that I am surrounded, not by nut-jobs, rogues and vagabonds, but by other Christs! What greater occasion could there be for joy, nay, jubilation even, than seeing yourself surrounded by your earthly holy family, all as keen as you to cosy up to God, to be on the right side of our older brother. So, the throne-room sensitivity, legitimately in my view, should give way to this communal fraternal joy. However, I often see it criticised as irreverance before the throne of the Almighty. Much the same with Confession. St Padre Pio said it should be an occasion of joy.

Anyway, sorry for the digression, but I think you should continue to pursue a modest asceticism (unless called to a more stringent one - mortification of the will is the best of all) and development of your 'interior life', your prayer-life. Nothing to stop you attending the Evangelical church with your wife, as well, if you gain something different from it. But don't give up on the sacramental, Orthodox/Catholic churches on account of sinful leadership in one church, if it is possible for you to find another one, not too fat away. That's my $0.002, anyway. good luck to you both.

Thank you , very helpful words and rich too. A blessing for my soul. Thanks for your time

 

[ouranopolis]

You need to do some research my friend. Its there!

The Catholic mass is very Biblical indeed.

The Mass Is Profoundly Biblical | Catholic Answers

I agree. Liturgical orthodox and catholic worship is like being in heaven . and is biblical . my friend I love the catholic and orthodox churches. It just pains me to see the watering down that goes on particularly by leadership . I see my dear wife on her knees each night ,trusting the bible , fasting , praying crying out to God. Then I go to church and half the leader would rather be at the pub , and tell us to not take it all so seriously. Could just be the churches I've been to but sometimes us smells and bells people don't help ourselves by actually being the very stereotype of what evangelicals think we will be , all pomp and no substance . it pains me because I know that of only we can carry this high form of worship and actually live it - there is no higher way to God. So few appear to do it .

 

[ouranopolis]

I think we have different denominations because some of us love the old-fashioned worship service, the comfort of reciting the Lord's Prayer, the Apostles or Nicene creed (or both), the colors and majesty of the decor, the ritual of the mass or the Eucharist or Holy Communion, the kneeling rails, the wonderful pipe organ, the traditional hymns, the choir resplendent in their formal robes, the candles, the incense, the comfort and security of tradition and universally shared prayers, creeds, and disciplines.

And some want the austere setting with little or no music, maybe a piano or no instrumental music at all, silent prayer, no prescribed creeds, no ornate trappings or other 'idolatrous' symbolism, etc.

Some want clearly Bible based sermons and structure and some embrace the leading of the Spirit wherever He takes them.

And some want the free wheeling experiential worship with a full praise band complete with guitars and drums and lots of "AMENS!" and joyful clapping and exuberance.

And some hit a happy compromise (for them) somewhere in the midst of all of that.

You obviously prefer the more traditional worship service--so do I though I am not dogmatic about it and can easily worship with any of the other traditions. And your wife is one who prefers the more 'low church' experiential worship service.

You shouldn't beat you or her up over it. I don't know if there is a solution for the two of you--it is good that you are looking for one though. Please don't even consider giving up on the Church or each other. Pray about it and keep looking for a reasonable compromise that you both can live with and for God to lead you to that compromise.

Thanks this makes a lot of sense

 

[Albion]

Your predicament is understandable--and not rare. There are a number of conservative Anglican churches in the UK which are not affiliated with the CofE, and that would be where I would head if I were you. At the very least, I would make certain that none of them are reasonably near to my home before doing something else.

As for the Ordinariate, many Anglicans/Episcopalians in the USA who chose to go that route, and did so with high hopes, were bitterly disappointed to find that it is essentially just the same as Roman Catholicism except that they're given a few familiar phrases from the Book of Common Prayer thrown into the liturgy.

In fact, these people often complain that, in addition, they are looked own upon by their fellow Catholics and also by the RC hierarchy as though they are imposters or "Johnny Come Latelys."

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hi all . I need some assistance. Long story but I came to faith in a bible believing conservative evangelical church . However I realised although I had a genuine faith , my life changed little , and saw few fruits of the spirit. I explored the ancient church and was baptised orthodox . through spiritual disciplines fasting set prayer times etc my life was revolutionised. My alcoholism ceased , along with a host of other big sin issues in my life. However I live in UK and wife is a strong evangelical I simply couldn't sustain travelling to attend an orthodox church with a wife dead against the style of liturgy . also the church I was in basically crumbled due to sin in leadership .
We compromised and went to a supposedly conservative Anglican church which turns out to be against the ordination of women but rejects key biblical truths which is odd. We left that church to find another with different issues . the only church we have found which preaches young earth creation and a literal Adam and eve , belief in hell as a real place and salvation through Christ , marriage between one man and one woman , homosexuality as sin - is a very " low church " evangelical church .
My wife loves that church and I do love the preaching but - what healed me was orthodox discipline , the Eucharist which I believe in an orthodox sense as being worthy of reverance , I love liturgy and feel close to God in a liturgy which I believe is right worship .these are all lacking in this new church which preaches a pure gospel but has no liturgy , the Eucharist is quite literally thrown to the floor at times during the service and none there seems to think like me that actually fasting and being disciplined is of any benefit , because Christ did it all so we can just kick back .
What I essentially saying is this . I need a church which actually believes the bible , and holds orthodox / catholic liturgical style. It seems most orthodox and catholic groups have long ago abandoned believing the bible is true and kind of merge and evolutionist approach to life with some pomp on a Sunday . Frankly the don't seem to take their faith very seriously. I have read seraph rose extensively and he holds my views - however I m at a loss to find any church resembling his remaining .
So please help this christian who is close to abandoning church altogether. Do I just accept that I m now an evangelical and abandon my previous approach which helped me so . or do I find a traditional catholic group . I don't know which way to turn all I know is I live Jesus and am getting fed up with all this confusion ! Help !

One thing I see clearly is that you are making church the foundation of your faith. If that is so, the church has become and idol for you, and you could find yourself coming short of pleasing God. The Scripture says that without faith it is impossible to please God, and it is vital that you have your faith in the right place.

The church is not the building, the organisation, ceremonies, liturgies, or anything else that is part of the religious organisation. The true church is YOU. You are the temple of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not dwell in a church building or organisation, but in the lives of genuine believers in Christ.

If you are basing your faith in a church, no matter what denomination, then you could end up being lost. To ensure that you are making your calling and election sure, you must wholly base your faith in Christ alone. The church did not die for you. Jesus did. The church is not the way, the truth and the life. Jesus is. He said that no one can come to the Father except by Him (not the church).

Attending the church of your choice, what works for you, is good, don't get me wrong. But your faith in Christ must be paramount, even if you end up on an isolated Pacific Island, living in a shack. Jesus must be all in all for you, or else He is not at all!

 

[HTacianas]

Hi all . I need some assistance. Long story but I came to faith in a bible believing conservative evangelical church . However I realised although I had a genuine faith , my life changed little , and saw few fruits of the spirit. I explored the ancient church and was baptised orthodox . through spiritual disciplines fasting set prayer times etc my life was revolutionised. My alcoholism ceased , along with a host of other big sin issues in my life. However I live in UK and wife is a strong evangelical I simply couldn't sustain travelling to attend an orthodox church with a wife dead against the style of liturgy . also the church I was in basically crumbled due to sin in leadership .
We compromised and went to a supposedly conservative Anglican church which turns out to be against the ordination of women but rejects key biblical truths which is odd. We left that church to find another with different issues . the only church we have found which preaches young earth creation and a literal Adam and eve , belief in hell as a real place and salvation through Christ , marriage between one man and one woman , homosexuality as sin - is a very " low church " evangelical church .
My wife loves that church and I do love the preaching but - what healed me was orthodox discipline , the Eucharist which I believe in an orthodox sense as being worthy of reverance , I love liturgy and feel close to God in a liturgy which I believe is right worship .these are all lacking in this new church which preaches a pure gospel but has no liturgy , the Eucharist is quite literally thrown to the floor at times during the service and none there seems to think like me that actually fasting and being disciplined is of any benefit , because Christ did it all so we can just kick back .
What I essentially saying is this . I need a church which actually believes the bible , and holds orthodox / catholic liturgical style. It seems most orthodox and catholic groups have long ago abandoned believing the bible is true and kind of merge and evolutionist approach to life with some pomp on a Sunday . Frankly the don't seem to take their faith very seriously. I have read seraph rose extensively and he holds my views - however I m at a loss to find any church resembling his remaining .
So please help this christian who is close to abandoning church altogether. Do I just accept that I m now an evangelical and abandon my previous approach which helped me so . or do I find a traditional catholic group . I don't know which way to turn all I know is I live Jesus and am getting fed up with all this confusion ! Help !

Your difficulty seems to be in some of the holdover beliefs of your evangelical beginnings and the confusion created by the sin of the clergy. Two things to remember that might help:

1. There is no defined teaching of the Orthodox Church concerning the age of the earth.

2. Sin exists among all people, even the clergy. That a Church leader may be caught in some public sin does not condemn the Church.

 

[Anthony2019]

Although I am from an Anglican background, I have visited many different churches of varying denominations. I have been enriched by their styles of worship and feel I have learned a lot from them.
I feel the presence of God in the silence of a monastic community as much as I do in a lively charismatic church. There are churches which uphold the Bible as speaking for itself in all matters of faith and the sole rule of faith and practice (sola scriptura) and churches which believe the scriptures must be understood through the lens of tradition, reason and experience. Whilst I have seen disagreements among the various churches over theological issues, I have met many Christians who attend these churches whose primary focus is to deepen their relationship with Christ and place Him at their centre of their lives and whose lives show evidence of the fruits of the Spirit.

God has made us all unique and special and I think it would be mundane if we all worshipped in exactly the same way.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You need to do some research my friend. Its there!

The Catholic mass is very Biblical indeed.

The Mass Is Profoundly Biblical | Catholic Answers

Ah, the answer given when a man does not know the reference. Just say, "it is there and you are ignorant" instead of showing where. I want your answer, not something you do not know but just ask others to tell trusting that they know.

The Mass is profoundly pagan from its incense and statues where the toes are kissed so that over the centuries they are gone to its assumption that every choice the one man sitting under the dagonian hat is the voice of God speaking and no one should read a bible. A visit to the Vatican shows the paganism so clearly it is astounding.

But it is pointless to argue the point. What is to be gained by discussing it? You know your catholic links. I would that you knew the Bible instead.