thecolorsblend

If God is your Father, who is your Mother?
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We arrive at the usual issues.
1/ Scripture is ambiguous. Using and quoting exactly the same scriptures arrives at a myriad of protestant interpretations on every aspect of doctrine, baptism, eucharist, salvation, remarriage, end times. It is why they schism with monotony. So scripture is not enough

2/ The early christians were certainly not sola scriptura. Faith was handed down" paradosis" by word of mouth and letter, The word now translated as tradition which gives a wrong connotation. Study that tradition and you see the meaning of scripture.

3/ Finally there is authority. Clearly there in the bible which is the power to "bind and loose". Give definitive interpretation of matters of law and doctrine. It is by that power the church identified heresies, created the creed and selected the canon. It is why scripture says "the foundation of truth is the church" Which is the physical church "household of God"

So 4/ Sola scriptura is easily defeated by simple logic, history and even scripture refutes it, by identifiying authority outside of itself.

Like a table with three legs. If you lose authority and tradition, the table falls over. Scripture is not enough by itself. It is also fascinating, that many churches repudiate tradition , then create "articles or confessions" which are ...you guessed it, their version of tradition. Difference is these were man made at the reformation!
Good points. And obviously I agree.

One question I struggled with as a Protestant concerning "sola scriptura" was precisely when the doctrine became binding upon the faithful. Because certainly ancient judaism was not a "sola scriptura" religion. Nor was Christianity when the NT was being written. So did "sola scriptura" become binding doctrine upon the faithful with the completion of the true canon? Or the death of the last surviving apostle? Or the recognition of the true canon? Or as Sacred Scripture became more accessible to the public?

When?

And since we're at it, Christians generally acknowledge that the Holy Spirit inspired the writers of scripture to write. Presumably, the Spirit also protected them from error. So why wouldn't the Spirit guide the Church in recognizing the canon?

Why wouldn't the Spirit continue leading the Church into all truth?

Obviously these questions are not challenging at all for Catholics. But as an evangelical, I never found satisfactory answers... apart from somebody giving yet another quotation of 2 Timothy 3:16, as if that answers anything relevant concerning those questions.
 
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ExTiff

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Of course that is true. We must have SAVING Faith in order to be saved.
If we have faith, it must be of the same kind as was Abraham's 'faith'. That is faith in God's promises. Not just an intellectual acceptance that God or Christ exists, but a willing obedience to God's directives.
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You mean, In order to continue being saved. No one is ‘Saved’ in this life, (accept while they remain in Christ). We will be saved when we finally join the saints in the invisible church in heaven. The Holy Spirit is our ernest of ‘Salvation’. 2 Cor.1:22. An earnest is a ‘downpayment and guarantee, not the final settlement of ‘Salvation’. Unbelief is something we will always have while still in a mortal body. Matt.17:20. I think we must admit that there are still many things which are still impossible to us. If we had perfect faith, nothing would be impossible to us. However everything is possible to God and it is possible for us to believe in God’s promises because God keeps them and He is trustworthy. So our salvation rests upon that alone and not on our ability to perform miracles or do great deeds of righteousness. Honesty about our spiritual poverty is all that is required by God for us to continue being saved. Matt.5:3. Luke 18:10-14.

When we then truly come to Christ by faith and accept Him as our Lord, THEN we should have the desire to do the works He directs us to.

”If you love me you should keep my commandments?” John 14:15; John 14:23. I think the word is “will keep my commands”. There is an inevitability and determination about that word, which is vacant in the word ’should’.

Those are not works to be saved but are works out of LOVE because we are allowing Him to live through us.

Quite so. Love is the key to everything, without it we are nothing. Luke 7:41-42; 1 Cor.13:2-3. Without it we cannot keep Christ’s commandment, without it we cannot continue being saved.

Christ was given to humanity, God knows who will accept Christ but that does not take away from our Freedom of Choice.
God gave himself to humanity, Christ was, before the incarnation, and now once more is God, the Holy Trinity. Mysterious isn’t it.

You can not LOSE Sanctification brother. Sanctification is a PROCESS. It is us learning and growing and being set aside for God's use. So then we are actually allowing Christ to Live through us which become the good works so many think are necessary.
Sanctification is a process that can cease because we cease to cooperate in it. We can lose our first love and lose love altogether even after a supposed ‘conversion’ experience. Love requires perseverance. 1 Cor.13:7; James 1:12; Revelation.2:4; Revelation 3:10; 2 John 1:6; Gal.5:6; Gal.5:14.
 
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Major1

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You mean, In order to continue being saved. No one is ‘Saved’ in this life, (accept while they remain in Christ). We will be saved when we finally join the saints in the invisible church in heaven. The Holy Spirit is our ernest of ‘Salvation’. 2 Cor.1:22. An earnest is a ‘downpayment and guarantee, not the final settlement of ‘Salvation’. Unbelief is something we will always have while still in a mortal body. Matt.17:20. I think we must admit that there are still many things which are still impossible to us. If we had perfect faith, nothing would be impossible to us. However everything is possible to God and it is possible for us to believe in God’s promises because God keeps them and He is trustworthy. So our salvation rests upon that alone and not on our ability to perform miracles or do great deeds of righteousness. Honesty about our spiritual poverty is all that is required by God for us to continue being saved. Matt.5:3.



”If you love me you should keep my commandments?” John 14:15; John 14:23. I think the word is “will keep my commands”. There is an inevitability and determination about that word, which is vacant in the word ’should’.



Quite so. Love is the key to everything, without it we are nothing. Luke 7:41-42; 1 Cor.13:2-3. Without it we cannot keep Christ’s commandment, without it we cannot continue being saved.


God gave himself to humanity, Christ was, before the incarnation, and now once more is God, the Holy Trinity. Mysterious isn’t it.


Sanctification is a process that can cease because we cease to cooperate in it. We can lose our first love and lose love altogether even after a supposed ‘conversion’ experience. Love requires perseverance. 1 Cor.13:7; James 1:12; Revelation.2:4; Revelation 3:10; 2 John 1:6; Gal.5:6; Gal.5:14.

I do not agree with your thinking.

"Positional Sanctification" says that we are SAVED and are in Christ and since Christ sits in heaven at the right hand of the Father, we too are POSITIONAL there as well.

To lose ones "sanctification" would mean losing their salvation and that is not possible IF we have truly been saved to begin with.

You said ……...."supposed ‘conversion’ experience."

That is the key.

That is exactly why Jesus said in Matthew 5:23...…
"Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

He was speaking to those who were NOT really saved but instead were religiouse.
 
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Major1

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Good points. And obviously I agree.

One question I struggled with as a Protestant concerning "sola scriptura" was precisely when the doctrine became binding upon the faithful. Because certainly ancient judaism was not a "sola scriptura" religion. Nor was Christianity when the NT was being written. So did "sola scriptura" become binding doctrine upon the faithful with the completion of the true canon? Or the death of the last surviving apostle? Or the recognition of the true canon? Or as Sacred Scripture became more accessible to the public?

When?

And since we're at it, Christians generally acknowledge that the Holy Spirit inspired the writers of scripture to write. Presumably, the Spirit also protected them from error. So why wouldn't the Spirit guide the Church in recognizing the canon?

Why wouldn't the Spirit continue leading the Church into all truth?

Obviously these questions are not challenging at all for Catholics. But as an evangelical, I never found satisfactory answers... apart from somebody giving yet another quotation of 2 Timothy 3:16, as if that answers anything relevant concerning those questions.

I hope that you will not take what I am about to say as being disrespectful because I do not intend for it to be.

Sola Scriptura is not a binding doctrine upon the faithful. As far as I know it never was such a thing.

Sola scriptura
is not a belief that stands against all tradition, only those traditions that promote teachings that oppose or attempt to replace biblical teachings. The Bible's readers are not called to reinvent the Bible; they are called to embrace it. Scripture is clear regarding its essential teachings. Tradition must take a lesser role.

As a Catholic believer I think that you are aware that In addition to the authority of the Bible, the Roman Catholic Church increasingly relied on traditions that had in many ways taken the place of the Bible's teachings.

I am not argueing here the right or wrong of those traditions I am only saying that Some of these traditions included...……
1). prayer to saints or to Mary the mother of Jesus,
2) belief in the Immaculate Conception (the belief that Mary was born without the stain of original sin),
3). indulgences (including required payments to the Church),
4). and the divine authority of the pope.

Sola scriptura became popular during the Protestant Reformation as a reaction against some of the practices of the Roman Catholic Church. It was the Reformers' way of saying that the Bible contains everything one needs for salvation and godly living.

Sola Scriptura is a method of learning instead of a Bible doctrine per se. I do not know of any churches who have it as a Chruch doctrine.
 
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thecolorsblend

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ExTiff

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I do not agree with your thinking.

"Positional Sanctification" says that we are SAVED and are in Christ and since Christ sits in heaven at the right hand of the Father, we too are POSITIONAL there as well.

To lose ones "sanctification" would mean losing their salvation and that is not possible IF we have truly been saved to begin with.

You said ……...."supposed ‘conversion’ experience."

That is the key.

That is exactly why Jesus said in Matthew 5:23...…
"Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

He was speaking to those who were NOT really saved but instead were religiouse.

I think he was speaking about people who continue to do evil after they become or claim to have become His Disciples. He is not talking to non-disiples, but to EX-disciples or bad disciples. In efect, branches that were once in the vine but are then cast out of the vine and are burned because they proved to have no life in them. John 15:4-8. The notion that they originally had no life, would imply that they were never in the vine to start with. But that is not what the saying implies at all. They were once in it, but withered because they would not remain. Withered branches do not bear fruit, their only usefulness is to provide heat in the burning.

I may be wrong. I'm interested to know what you make of this passage of scripture. I find it difficult to see it any other way. Jesus is not referring to those who have never ever even been in the vine from the start, i.e. the wicked. He is referring to those who have failed to remain in it.

We need to remain in the vine in order to continue to be his disciples, (see the note in the text). That is the meaning of being saved.
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Mountainmike

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That brings us to the crux of the matter.

Take this as an example.
and the divine authority of the pope.

What scripture has to say:
Taking the literal interpretation of Matthew 16:18 and 19 - the keys being a reference back to Isaiah 22:20 and the power to "bind and loose" in the same verses which is clearly divine authority for infallible interpretation of matters of doctrine and law. That is what it meant to the jews of the time.

The point is, it does not matter whether you agree with that exegesis or not, (on bind and loose you would find it more or less impossible to disagree.
The fact is we DISAGREE on interpretation on vital scriptures. And it is also why protestants disagreewith each other on almost every aspect of doctrine, and so they schism with regularity.

So there is not a unique interpretation. Hence proving sola scriptura and your subsequent quote here false.
It was the Reformers' way of saying that the Bible contains everything one needs for salvation and godly living.

You should also take on board that your use of the word tradition is in error.
As catholics we use the same definition of "tradition" that is "paradosis" as evidenced in Paul "stay true" which means the - entireity of the faith handed down. Not just some parts of it.

Tradition gives meaning to scripture and resolves the ambiguities.

You need tradition to resolve interpretation. And the faith handed down says that our interpretaion of the pope and "bind and loose" is the correct one.

So sola scriptura is provably false - actually in three different ways. Logic. Scripture and history all say it is not true.

Sola scriptura was an invention of reformation. To which they then added their own tradition as "confession" and "articles". Even you Major read scripture through they eyes of your tradition whether it is written or not.
 
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Major1

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I think he was speaking about people who continue to do evil after they become or claim to have become His Disciples. He is not talking to non-disiples, but to EX-disciples or bad disciples. In efect, branches that were once in the vine but are then cast out of the vine and are burned because they proved to have no life in them. John 15:4-8. The notion that they originally had no life, would imply that they were never in the vine to start with. But that is not what the saying implies at all. They were once in it, but withered because they would not remain. Withered branches do not bear fruit, their only usefulness is to provide heat in the burning.

I may be wrong. I'm interested to know what you make of this passage of scripture. I find it difficult to see it any other way. Jesus is not referring to those who have never ever even been in the vine from the start, i.e. the wicked. He is referring to those who have failed to remain in it.

We need to remain in the vine in order to continue to be his disciples, (see the note in the text). That is the meaning of being saved.
.

Certainly. Everything must be consider by proper CONTEXT so as to get the correct exegesis.

In the beginning of John 15, Jesus uses that allegory to teach His disciples about a believer's relationship with Him and the Father. He also explains that the person who only appears to be connected to Him is not a legitimate believer and therefore will be cut off, thrown away, and burned in the fire.

When Jesus said...... "Abide in me." He envisions people who are superficially attached to Him--people who may go to church, claim to be devout, and even talk about their relationship to Him--but who aren't real believers. They are instead MAKE BELIEVERS!
 
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ExTiff

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Certainly. Everything must be consider by proper CONTEXT so as to get the correct exegesis.

In the beginning of John 15, Jesus uses that allegory to teach His disciples about a believer's relationship with Him and the Father. He also explains that the person who only appears to be connected to Him is not a legitimate believer and therefore will be cut off, thrown away, and burned in the fire.

When Jesus said...... "Abide in me." He envisions people who are superficially attached to Him--people who may go to church, claim to be devout, and even talk about their relationship to Him--but who aren't real believers. They are instead MAKE BELIEVERS!

Abide in me infers the action of 'Remaining', rather than being 'cast away', i.e. being 'Removed' from the vine. there is no suggestion that these 'cast away' branches were never really part of the vine to start with, but only pretending to be actually joined to it. Quite the contrary, if you carefully read the text, in context. They were actually, originally PART of the vine, but did not 'Remain' part of it. Presumably because THEY did not do as Jesus instructs, to 'Remain' and 'Abide' in Him. Jesus is clearly talking about disciples who once were infused with the life blood of The Vine but have become, for various reasons, no longer partaking of the 'sap' that comes only from the vine itself, which is faith in the Only Son of God Jesus Christ, and his love for the sheep which 'Know His voice' and 'Follow Him' and 'Obey his Commands'. That requires perseverance.

He was speaking to the eleven, who were all true disciples. They were warned by Jesus to REMAIN as such. These words were not addressed to Judas, who had already left the company. He might have fitted your description of "Make Believer" but not the remaing eleven, to whom this warning was actually addressed. There is no legitimate reason whatever to impose upon this saying of Jesus an interpretation that tries to make out it refers to 'Non Disciples' who have never been part of The Vine.

If any exegesis is incorrect, I suggest it might most likely be yours.
 
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Major1

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Abide in me infers the action of 'Remaining', rather than being 'cast away', i.e. being 'Removed' from the vine. there is no suggestion that these 'cast away' branches were never really part of the vine to start with, but only pretending to be actually joined to it. Quite the contrary, if you carefully read the text, in context. They were actually, originally PART of the vine, but did not 'Remain' part of it. Presumably because THEY did not do as Jesus instructs, to 'Remain' and 'Abide' in Him. Jesus is clearly talking about disciples who once were infused with the life blood of The Vine but have become, for various reasons, no longer partaking of the 'sap' that comes only from the vine itself, which is faith in the Only Son of God Jesus Christ, and his love for the sheep which 'Know His voice' and 'Follow Him' and 'Obey his Commands'. That requires perseverance.

He was speaking to the eleven, who were all true disciples. They were warned by Jesus to REMAIN as such. These words were not addressed to Judas, who had already left the company. He might have fitted your description of "Make Believer" but not the remaing eleven, to whom this warning was actually addressed. There is no legitimate reason whatever to impose upon this saying of Jesus an interpretation that tries to make out it refers to 'Non Disciples' who have never been part of The Vine.

If any exegesis is incorrect, I suggest it might most likely be yours.

So when, in John 15:16, Jesus says...…...
“You did not choose me, but I chose you,”

You are saying that He is specifically speaking to His eleven apostles and reminding them that He chose them out of the wider mass of His followers for the specific task of learning from Him so that they could do the things He did. Correct?

IF that is the case then this does not mean that Jesus has only chosen these eleven to do His work.

What then do we do for numerous other texts in the Scripture indicate that all who believe in Jesus are chosen, or elected, by Him to have a place in helping Him advance the Kingdom of God on earth.

A true faith will produce true obedience because our beliefs determine our actions. If a person who professes Christ as their Savior does not obey Him, it means they have only the knowledge of the Lord. Instead of living by God's word, other things are more important to them than doing His will. That means they in reality do not believe Jesus.

Jesus said, "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46)

Wouldn't you agree then that just as Jesus chose the eleven for this task, so also, now that the Holy Spirit has come, all believers are similarly chosen. We too, like the eleven, were not chosen to receive eternal life, but, having received eternal life by faith in Jesus, we are chosen to serve God and love others.
 
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ExTiff

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So when, in John 15:16, Jesus says...…...
“You did not choose me, but I chose you,”

You are saying that He is specifically speaking to His eleven apostles and reminding them that He chose them out of the wider mass of His followers for the specific task of learning from Him so that they could do the things He did. Correct?

IF that is the case then this does not mean that Jesus has only chosen these eleven to do His work.

What then do we do for numerous other texts in the Scripture indicate that all who believe in Jesus are chosen, or elected, by Him to have a place in helping Him advance the Kingdom of God on earth.

A true faith will produce true obedience because our beliefs determine our actions. If a person who professes Christ as their Savior does not obey Him, it means they have only the knowledge of the Lord. Instead of living by God's word, other things are more important to them than doing His will. That means they in reality do not believe Jesus.

Jesus said, "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46)

Wouldn't you agree then that just as Jesus chose the eleven for this task, so also, now that the Holy Spirit has come, all believers are similarly chosen. We too, like the eleven, were not chosen to receive eternal life, but, having received eternal life by faith in Jesus, we are chosen to serve God and love others.

You are saying that He is specifically speaking to His eleven apostles and reminding them that He chose them out of the wider mass of His followers for the specific task of learning from Him so that they could do the things He did. Correct?

IF that is the case then this does not mean that Jesus has only chosen these eleven to do His work.

No, I didn't say that. I said: "He was speaking to the eleven, who were all true disciples. They were warned by Jesus to REMAIN as such. These words were not addressed to Judas, who had already left the company."

Judas left. He did not remain. We may assume therefore that this saying of Jesus is addressed to all 'True Believers' both then, (literally) and now (by extension). The saying did not include Judas then, because he had already left, and does not include 'non disciples' now because the warning is to those who might FAIL to remain in the vine, not those who have never been in The Vine to start with. They would have to BECOME part of The Vine, before they could be cast from it like dead branches. For branches to become dead they first have to become branches.

I don't know how you think about that, but it seems perfectly logical to me. A dead branch has first to have BEEN a 'living branch' before it can be in danger of becoming a 'dead one'.

Wouldn't you agree then that just as Jesus chose the eleven for this task, so also, now that the Holy Spirit has come, all believers are similarly chosen. We too, like the eleven, were not chosen to receive eternal life, but, having received eternal life by faith in Jesus, we are chosen to serve God and love others.

Jesus chose all twelve, (and many others unnamed), including Judas Iscariot who betrayed him. All performed their allotted or predicted tasks as it was foretold and predicted, (but not fixed), before the foundation of the world. (Look up 'Fulfilled' as in John 17:12, along with it's other 57 iterations in the KJV New Testament)

It is still possible for believers to choose not to remain in the true vine, otherwise why would Jesus offer the advice to remain in Him and describe the results of not doing so.

We can remain in Jesus, but if we decide to 'go out' it will be 'night' for us. John 13:30. Heb.6:5-6. Without Him, we can do nothing. John 15:5.
 
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Major1

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No, I didn't say that. I said: "He was speaking to the eleven, who were all true disciples. They were warned by Jesus to REMAIN as such. These words were not addressed to Judas, who had already left the company."

Judas left. He did not remain. We may assume therefore that this saying of Jesus is addressed to all 'True Believers' both then, (literally) and now (by extension). The saying did not include Judas then, because he had already left, and does not include 'non disciples' now because the warning is to those who might FAIL to remain in the vine, not those who have never been in The Vine to start with. They would have to BECOME part of The Vine, before they could be cast from it like dead branches. For branches to become dead they first have to become branches.

I don't know how you think about that, but it seems perfectly logical to me. A dead branch has first to have BEEN a 'living branch' before it can be in danger of becoming a 'dead one'.



Jesus chose all twelve, (and many others unnamed), including Judas Iscariot who betrayed him. All performed their allotted or predicted tasks as it was foretold and predicted, (but not fixed), before the foundation of the world. (Look up 'Fulfilled' as in John 17:12, along with it's other 57 iterations in the KJV New Testament)

It is still possible for believers to choose not to remain in the true vine, otherwise why would Jesus offer the advice to remain in Him and describe the results of not doing so.

We can remain in Jesus, but if we decide to 'go out' it will be 'night' for us. John 13:30. Heb.6:5-6. Without Him, we can do nothing. John 15:5.

It seems to me that We are saying the same thing.

You said...............
" We may assume therefore that this saying of Jesus is addressed to all 'True Believers' both then, (literally) and now (by extension)."

Agreed!
 
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ExTiff

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It seems to me that We are saying the same thing.

You said...............
" We may assume therefore that this saying of Jesus is addressed to all 'True Believers' both then, (literally) and now (by extension)."

Agreed!

My point then and now is that we are warned by Jesus to "Remain in Him and He in us", or else . . . . .

But you seem to think that for 'true beievers' there can be no 'or else'. His words indicate to me that there is at least some onus on us to ensure we remain in Jesus Christ. I agree that if we are true believers, He in us is not going to 'let us go our own way without a fight', (We are bought with a price, we are His property, He will not lose us easily, without considerable resistance), but the warning still stands and the possibility of us 'leaving the vine', still therefore must exist. (OSAS as enthusiastically preached by some, without caveat, is dangerously heretical nonsense).

A healthy assurance of salvation depends upon obedience to our Lord and Master and continued trust in His ability to uphold us in salvation, otherwise 'assurance of faith' becomes mere 'presumption' and 'withering' has already set in.
.
 
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Major1

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My point then and now is that we are warned by Jesus to "Remain in Him and He in us", or else . . . . .

But you seem to think that for 'true beievers' there can be no 'or else'. His words indicate to me that there is at least some onus on us to ensure we remain in Jesus Christ. I agree that if we are true believers, He in us is not going to 'let us go our own way without a fight', (We are bought with a price, we are His property, He will not lose us easily, without considerable resistance, but the warning still stands and the possibility of us 'leaving the vine', still therefore must exist. (OSAS as enthusiastically preached by some, without caveat, is dangerously heretical nonsense).

A healthy assurance of salvation depends upon obedience to our Lord and Master and continued trust in His ability to uphold us in salvation, otherwise 'assurance of faith' becomes mere 'presumption' and 'withering' has set in.
.

I do believe in OSAS and always have. I can not accept the thought that a God powerful enough to save me is not powerful enough to keep me saved.

I personally place that thesis in the words of the Apostle John who said in 1 John 2:19.....
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

That says it all for me.

To lose ones salvation one must first be saved to begin with and that does not mean talking the talk and going to a church.
 
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I do believe in OSAS and always have. I can not accept the thought that a God powerful enough to save me is not powerful enough to keep me saved.

I personally place that thesis in the words of the Apostle John who said in 1 John 2:19.....
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

That says it all for me.

To lose ones salvation one must first be saved to begin with and that does not mean talking the talk and going to a church.

We are on the same Hymnsheet, same page but singing different hymns, it seems. Maybe even the same hymn but to different tunes which contrapuntally harminize. My view is that almost everyone is 'being saved' but are not useful to God because they are not 'entrusted' with the ministry of reconciliation. (They are being saved by what Jesus did on Good Friday close on 2000 years ago). God does not 'Trust' everyone who is being saved by Christ's sacrifice, because they are not yet in Christ, and as yet He is not in them. Their sins, whatever they may be, are no longer held against them by God, but they are still part of God's problem rather than having become part of God's solution, for the world.

Becoming a 'believer' and a 'disciple' is about becoming part of God's solution and no longer part of God's problem with the world. The Holy Spirit indwelling is the spirit of Christ. It is that which brings forth fruit in us. It is He that 'entrusts us' with the message of reconciliation, once we have become reconciled with God as God already was and is with us. (most Christians call this conversion. In most people it is a response of repentance and faith, enabled by God, to the hearing and understanding The Gospel).

Once a person truly believes Jesus Christ has paid the price of all human sin, including theirs, and therefore becomes committed to spreading that message of 'Reconciliation', turning from their sins and remaing fathful to Christ and His teaching, forgiving others as God has forgiven them, then their salvation is 'assured' and they will 'bear much fruit', to the glory of God, IF they remain in Christ and Christ in them.

Without Him they can do nothing. 1 Cor.3:13-15.
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Major1

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We are on the same Hymnsheet, same page but singing different hymns, it seems. Maybe even the same hymn but to different tunes which contrapuntally harminize. My view is that almost everyone is 'being saved' but are not useful to God because they are not 'entrusted' with the ministry of reconciliation. (They are being saved by what Jesus did on Good Friday close on 2000 years ago). God does not 'Trust' everyone who is being saved by Christ's sacrifice, because they are not yet in Christ, and as yet He is not in them. Their sins, whatever they may be, are no longer held against them by God, but they are still part of God's problem rather than having become part of God's solution, for the world.

Becoming a 'believer' and a 'disciple' is about becoming part of God's solution and no longer part of God's problem with the world. The Holy Spirit indwelling is the spirit of Christ. It is that which brings forth fruit in us. It is He that 'entrusts us' with the message of reconciliation, once we have become reconciled with God as God already was and is with us. (most Christians call this conversion. In most people it is a response of repentance and faith, enabled by God, to the hearing and understanding The Gospel).

Once a person truly believes Jesus Christ has paid the price of all human sin, including theirs, and therefore becomes committed to spreading that message of 'Reconciliation', turning from their sins and remaing fathful to Christ and His teaching, forgiving others as God has forgiven them, then their salvation is 'assured' and they will 'bear much fruit', to the glory of God, IF they remain in Christ and Christ in them.

Without Him they can do nothing. 1 Cor.3:13-15.
.

I believe that the Scriptures teach us that the "second" we trust in Christ we then completely saved and we have all that God has promised us, salvationaly speaking.

Jesus Christ not only rescued us from damnation but also reconciled us to God.

1 John 2:2...…..
"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

This took care of the disrupted relationship. But it didn’t solve the punishment for sin, which was death.

Jesus’ resurrection solved this problem. Jesus was killed and then came back to life, as the first example of what will happen to us as well. Jesus showed us that death isn’t the end of the story. God’s goal to have us as part of His family can’t be defeated by death. Because we will be resurrected like Him.

2 Corth. 5:18-19...… declares,
“All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.”

Christian reconciliation is a glorious truth! We were God’s enemies, but are now His friends. We were in a state of condemnation because of our sins, but we are now forgiven. We were at war with God, but now have the peace that transcends all understanding.
 
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ExTiff

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I believe that the Scriptures teach us that the "second" we trust in Christ we then completely saved and we have all that God has promised us, salvationaly speaking.

Jesus Christ not only rescued us from damnation but also reconciled us to God.

1 John 2:2...…..
"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

This took care of the disrupted relationship. But it didn’t solve the punishment for sin, which was death.

Jesus’ resurrection solved this problem. Jesus was killed and then came back to life, as the first example of what will happen to us as well. Jesus showed us that death isn’t the end of the story. God’s goal to have us as part of His family can’t be defeated by death. Because we will be resurrected like Him.

2 Corth. 5:18-19...… declares,
“All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.”

Christian reconciliation is a glorious truth! We were God’s enemies, but are now His friends. We were in a state of condemnation because of our sins, but we are now forgiven. We were at war with God, but now have the peace that transcends all understanding.

We were God’s enemies, and still are IF we refuse to be reconciled with God once we know, 'God no longer is holding our sins against us'. It is not God that is our enemy, God no longer holds our sins against us, it would be US that make God OUR enemy. That in itself would set us in deliberate opposition to God, with no excuse, the same as Satan and his angels. It was for them, and the likes of them, that the lake of fire was prepared. Matt.25:41.
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Major1

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We were God’s enemies, and still are IF we refuse to be reconciled with God once we know, 'God no longer is holding our sins against us'. It is not God that is our enemy, God no longer holds our sins against us, it would be US that make God OUR enemy. That in itself would set us in deliberate opposition to God, with no excuse, the same as Satan and his angels. It was for them, and the likes of them, that the lake of fire was prepared. Matt.25:41.
.

Absolutely true! That is Christianity 101 brother and again, WE are saying the same thing.

Romans 5:10 tells us exactly the same thing...….
"For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.".

Not only are we NOT enemies at the moment we are saved, God no longer even remembers our sin. Heb. 10:14-18 confirms that when it says,...……….
“For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: ‘This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.’ Then he adds: ‘Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.’ And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.”

I agree that hell is a place prepared for Satan and his demons along with all who reject the Lord Jesus Christ. Those individuals are the THEM of all the ages and peoples of earth.

Matthew 25:41 that you quoted says...……..
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels".

The fact that the wicked, "THEM ON THE LEFT HAND, will be eternally punished, cursed of God, should awe every spirit, and lead every man to strive most earnestly to secure his salvation. As, however, the "body" will be raised, it is not unreasonable to suppose that a mode of punishment will be adopted suited to the body - perhaps bearing some analogy to suffering here, in its various forms of flames, and racks, and cold, and heat, and disease, and ungratified desire, and remorse - perhaps the concentration of all earthly woes, all that makes man miserable here, poured upon the naked body and spirit of the wicked in hell forever and ever.
("Barnes Notes on the Bible)
 
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ExTiff

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Absolutely true! That is Christianity 101 brother and again, WE are saying the same thing.

Romans 5:10 tells us exactly the same thing...….
"For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.".

Not only are we NOT enemies at the moment we are saved, God no longer even remembers our sin. Heb. 10:14-18 confirms that when it says,...……….
“For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: ‘This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.’ Then he adds: ‘Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.’ And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.”

I agree that hell is a place prepared for Satan and his demons along with all who reject the Lord Jesus Christ. Those individuals are the THEM of all the ages and peoples of earth.

Matthew 25:41 that you quoted says...……..
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels".

The fact that the wicked, "THEM ON THE LEFT HAND, will be eternally punished, cursed of God, should awe every spirit, and lead every man to strive most earnestly to secure his salvation. As, however, the "body" will be raised, it is not unreasonable to suppose that a mode of punishment will be adopted suited to the body - perhaps bearing some analogy to suffering here, in its various forms of flames, and racks, and cold, and heat, and disease, and ungratified desire, and remorse - perhaps the concentration of all earthly woes, all that makes man miserable here, poured upon the naked body and spirit of the wicked in hell forever and ever.
("Barnes Notes on the Bible)

Or cast out into utter, outer darkness. Matt.8:12, Matt.22:13, Matt.25:30.

So it is not so much a case of 'us and them', as a case of 'we all have been given a lifetime of Grace'. We either chose to use it for God or against God and there will be rewards and consequences which ever way we chose. And 'now' is always the time to be saved. Matt.6:30-34.
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