confused about something

[Kristos]

It seems pretty straight forward in scripture.

Mar 14:22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.

take, eat

nothing in between

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Oki.. I don't want to argue... this is just something that's sort of special to me. I guess the Catholic approach is just different from the Orthodox one.

Forgive me

 

[Joshua G.]

I agree this isn't an ancient practice (at least not formally) but I don't think it's that big of a deal, certainly not divisive and, in fairness to them, was in response to a huge heretical movement known as the reformation, much of which was denying the Real Presence. I'll definitely take Eucharistic adoration over denying the Real Presence and I think this only helped affirm this necessary belief in the west. Let's not forget that during certain times of the year (Wednesdays during Lent) we are instructed to bow before the Eucharist. I understand why this is different from Eucharistic adoration, but the idea of adoring Christ in the Eucharist is not foreign to the East and to be strict about it this would not be following the "take, eat, nothing in between" model mentioned earlier.

Joshua

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I agree this isn't an ancient practice (at least not formally) but I don't think it's that big of a deal, certainly not divisive and, in fairness to them, was in response to a huge heretical movement known as the reformation, much of which was denying the Real Presence. I'll definitely take Eucharistic adoration over denying the Real Presence and I think this only helped affirm this necessary belief in the west. Let's not forget that during certain times of the year (Wednesdays during Lent) we are instructed to bow before the Eucharist. I understand why this is different from Eucharistic adoration, but the idea of adoring Christ in the Eucharist is not foreign to the East and to be strict about it this would not be following the "take, eat, nothing in between" model mentioned earlier.

Joshua

that's cool

 

[Rowan]

oki here comes a stupid question.....

(get ready )

why?

lol I'm not debating at all. I'm just wondering, why there's this difference why in the Orthodox church, you guys don't venerate the Eucharist that's kept in the church, and in the Catholic church, we do. I guess there's some sort of historical difference as well as theological, perhaps.. but Im just curious lol. My logic is that since it's Jesus, we should pay attention to Him and venerate Him when inside the church. BUT - it seems the Orthodox approach is different??? I'm confused.. I understand that the Eucharist exists for Communion, I agree with that, in fact, but why do you disagree with the veneration? I'm not debating, honestly.. I want to know.. lol

Well I'm glad I know now that the Eucharist is kept there... I'll be sure to bow when walking by oki here's another question. Sorry if this is dumb, I'm just trying to figure things out. Would it be incorrect if during the Liturgy (or before Liturgy), someone prayed to Christ in the Eucharist - in the tabernacle? Do you believe we can worship the Eucharist and pray to Jesus in the Eucharist? Is His Soul and Divinity present as well as His Body and Blood? I've actually always wondered this. If someone could help me out.. that would clarify many things does Christ in the Eucharist hear our prayers?

thanks.

If I can be Mary-quite-contrary about this (not to you Monica, but to the other TAW posters), it's not entirely true that the Orthodox do not venerate the Eucharist. At the very least: when the priest blesses everyone with the Eucharist after the faithful commune, it has always been my experience that this is a very reverent moment in which we bow and cross ourselves in worship of Christ in the Eucharist. Someone might add a pious prayer in that moment, but we just don't really address that aspect as much as Catholic devotion does. Then there is always the custom of kissing the chalice right after one has communed as kissing the Wound of Christ of which we have just drank from.

And I do remember reading Orthodox prayers (not even counting the WR ones) directed to the Bread. Since we have prayers directed to the wood of the Holy Cross, this doesn't seems in the least bit scandalous.

 

[a.d.ivNonasNovembres]

Then there is always the custom of kissing the chalice right after one has communed as kissing the Wound of Christ of which we have just drank from.

That is so beautiful.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

If I can be Mary-quite-contrary about this (not to you Monica, but to the other TAW posters), it's not entirely true that the Orthodox do not venerate the Eucharist. At the very least: when the priest blesses everyone with the Eucharist after the faithful commune, it has always been my experience that this is a very reverent moment in which we bow and cross ourselves in worship of Christ in the Eucharist. Someone might add a pious prayer in that moment, but we just don't really address that aspect as much as Catholic devotion does. Then there is always the custom of kissing the chalice right after one has communed as kissing the Wound of Christ of which we have just drank from.

And I do remember reading Orthodox prayers (not even counting the WR ones) directed to the Bread. Since we have prayers directed to the wood of the Holy Cross, this doesn't seems in the least bit scandalous.

that's good to know! thanks

 

[Joshua G.]

If I can be Mary-quite-contrary about this (not to you Monica, but to the other TAW posters), it's not entirely true that the Orthodox do not venerate the Eucharist. At the very least: when the priest blesses everyone with the Eucharist after the faithful commune, it has always been my experience that this is a very reverent moment in which we bow and cross ourselves in worship of Christ in the Eucharist. Someone might add a pious prayer in that moment, but we just don't really address that aspect as much as Catholic devotion does. Then there is always the custom of kissing the chalice right after one has communed as kissing the Wound of Christ of which we have just drank from.

And I do remember reading Orthodox prayers (not even counting the WR ones) directed to the Bread. Since we have prayers directed to the wood of the Holy Cross, this doesn't seems in the least bit scandalous.

I agree. I think what others might say, however, that the point is really that something happens in between the taking and the eating, but rather than it is neither taken nor eaten but, for eucharistic adoration, is placed in a special place for the unique purpose of adoring. Now, I would be curious to know if and when the piece of Eucharist put in the glass part (the monstrance?) is later eaten. they would point out that this loses sight of it's primary purpose: to be eaten.

While I do believe a good point is made here, I am not convinced that it is incredibly important (i.e. divisive) seeing as they to would agree that it's primary prupose is to be consumed, which is what they do by and large, setting aside an small piece for adoration. And if it is eventually consumed (and not left in there forever and ever) then I see virtually no problem with it.

The point: they believe int eh Real presence very strongly and when this belief was gravely threatened, this came about as a means to protect it. So, technicalities aside, I don't really care. I am just relieved they never let go of the Orthodox understanding of the Eucharist.

Joshua

 

[Kristos]

If I can be Mary-quite-contrary about this (not to you Monica, but to the other TAW posters), it's not entirely true that the Orthodox do not venerate the Eucharist. At the very least: when the priest blesses everyone with the Eucharist after the faithful commune, it has always been my experience that this is a very reverent moment in which we bow and cross ourselves in worship of Christ in the Eucharist. Someone might add a pious prayer in that moment, but we just don't really address that aspect as much as Catholic devotion does. Then there is always the custom of kissing the chalice right after one has communed as kissing the Wound of Christ of which we have just drank from.

And I do remember reading Orthodox prayers (not even counting the WR ones) directed to the Bread. Since we have prayers directed to the wood of the Holy Cross, this doesn't seems in the least bit scandalous.

You seem to be interchanging veneration and adoration freely. They are not the same thing.

Most priests I know don't like anyone kissing the chalice. Perhaps some don't mind, but none around here.

 

[Kristos]

The Purpose of the Eucharist lies not in the change of the bread and wine, but in the partaking of Christ, who has become our food, our life, the manifestation of the Church as the body of Christ. This is why the gifts themselves never became in the Orthodox East an object of special reverence, contemplation, and adoration, and likewise an object of special theological “problematics”: how, when, in what manner their change is accomplished.

Alexander Schmemann, The Eucharist: Sacrament of the Kingdom

Our focus is not on the change in the elements, but on the presence of Christ, the power of the Holy Spirit, and the mystery of faith encountered in the ancient liturgy. We do not adore the consecrated bread outside the liturgy itself.

 

[fuerein]

Kissing the chalice after communing is primarily a Russian thing from my understanding. The OCA/ROCOR churches I've been to have all done it but not the Antiochian parishes I've been to.

 

[Barky]

Kissing the chalice after communing is primarily a Russian thing from my understanding. The OCA/ROCOR churches I've been to have all done it but not the Antiochian parishes I've been to.

Same with the Greek church I attend. The OCA one I attend in my home town does it.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

Yes, it's normal practice in all the OCA parishes I've been in, including my own.

Mary

 

[Rowan]

I've never been to a parish where it was a normal practice, just some people did and some people didn't. That's how it is at my home parish, which is an Antiochian mission.

 

[Rowan]

You seem to be interchanging veneration and adoration freely. They are not the same thing.

I honestly don't know what the difference is, but in my post I didn't mean to comment on Eucharistic Adoration as understood by the Catholic Church, just commenting on Monica's suggestion that Orthodox people did not venerate the Eucharist.

What's the difference? The context (liturgical vs. para-liturgical)?

 

[Macarius]

We venerate the items by which we recieve the Eucharist (the chalice, the right hand of the priest, the gifts during the great entrance, etc), but the Eucharist, in some views, isn't even fully the Eucharist until it is partaken of by the Body of Christ. We don't assign a moment at which the change occurs, so there isn't much sense in venerating it at a particular moment - though the closest thing I can think of is when we prostrate or bow after the invocation of the Holy Spirit over the gifts "And make these gifts the precious body of Thy Christ... " etc.

 

[Rowan]

We venerate the items by which we recieve the Eucharist (the chalice, the right hand of the priest, the gifts during the great entrance, etc), but the Eucharist, in some views, isn't even fully the Eucharist until it is partaken of by the Body of Christ. We don't assign a moment at which the change occurs, so there isn't much sense in venerating it at a particular moment - though the closest thing I can think of is when we prostrate or bow after the invocation of the Holy Spirit over the gifts "And make these gifts the precious body of Thy Christ... " etc.

What views?

 

[Michael G]

oki here comes a stupid question.....

(get ready )

why?

lol I'm not debating at all. I'm just wondering, why there's this difference why in the Orthodox church, you guys don't venerate the Eucharist that's kept in the church, and in the Catholic church, we do. I guess there's some sort of historical difference as well as theological, perhaps.. but Im just curious lol. My logic is that since it's Jesus, we should pay attention to Him and venerate Him when inside the church. BUT - it seems the Orthodox approach is different??? I'm confused.. I understand that the Eucharist exists for Communion, I agree with that, in fact, but why do you disagree with the veneration? I'm not debating, honestly.. I want to know.. lol

Well I'm glad I know now that the Eucharist is kept there... I'll be sure to bow when walking by oki here's another question. Sorry if this is dumb, I'm just trying to figure things out. Would it be incorrect if during the Liturgy (or before Liturgy), someone prayed to Christ in the Eucharist - in the tabernacle? Do you believe we can worship the Eucharist and pray to Jesus in the Eucharist? Is His Soul and Divinity present as well as His Body and Blood? I've actually always wondered this. If someone could help me out.. that would clarify many things does Christ in the Eucharist hear our prayers?

thanks.

The Eucharist is meant to be consumed and not worshipped.

 

[Michael G]

Kissing the chalice after communing is primarily a Russian thing from my understanding. The OCA/ROCOR churches I've been to have all done it but not the Antiochian parishes I've been to.

When I did attend an Antiochian Church for a year or two I had to tell the deacon to hold the chalice there for me to kiss it until he got used to me doing that.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

You seem to be interchanging veneration and adoration freely. They are not the same thing.

what is the difference?

Most priests I know don't like anyone kissing the chalice. Perhaps some don't mind, but none around here.

I think people do that at my family's church, not sure about other churches.. btw, it's Russian.

Alexander Schmemann, The Eucharist: Sacrament of the Kingdom

Our focus is not on the change in the elements, but on the presence of Christ, the power of the Holy Spirit, and the mystery of faith encountered in the ancient liturgy. We do not adore the consecrated bread outside the liturgy itself.

do you believe the bread remains?

anyway, thanks for explaining

We venerate the items by which we recieve the Eucharist (the chalice, the right hand of the priest, the gifts during the great entrance, etc), but the Eucharist, in some views, isn't even fully the Eucharist until it is partaken of by the Body of Christ. We don't assign a moment at which the change occurs, so there isn't much sense in venerating it at a particular moment - though the closest thing I can think of is when we prostrate or bow after the invocation of the Holy Spirit over the gifts "And make these gifts the precious body of Thy Christ... " etc.

The Eucharist is meant to be consumed and not worshipped.

but is it oki to worship it, since it's Christ? would it be idolatry to worship?

sorry for all the questions..