Confused about hell

[theanticrash]

Do you not realize that the same Person who wrote Jerimiah is the same person who wrote the end of the New Test.

By inspiration of the holy spirit, besides that Jesus didn't actually put anything in writing himself.

 

[St_Worm2]

To learn about relationships, for that is what the universe is designed for.

Interesting! If you don't mind me asking you another question as an aside, who "designed" the universe?

Thanks!

edit: I promise that I will answer the main question in your OP shortly

 

[theanticrash]

Is hell everlasting or does one perish in the flame's.

Which side do I choose?

 

[theanticrash]

Interesting! If you don't mind me asking you another question as an aside, who "designed" the universe?

Thanks!

Why would I know such things.

 

[St_Worm2]

Why would I know such things.

If you don't know who designed it, how do you know its purpose then, that its designer intended the universe to be used to "learn about relationships" (rather than something else entirely)?

Thanks again!

 

[theanticrash]

If you don't know who designed it, how do you know its purpose then, that its designer intended the universe to be used to "learn about relationships" (rather than something else entirely)?

Thanks again!

The evidence points to the reason why we are here, not to who created the reason.

 

[St_Worm2]

The evidence points to the reason why we are here, not to who created the reason.

I see. While I believe that you may be onto something (I'll tell you why in a moment), what is the "evidence" (in a general sense) that led you to that conclusion?

Thanks!

 

[theanticrash]

I see. While I believe that you may be onto something (I'll tell you why in a moment), what is the "evidence" (in a general sense) that led you to that conclusion?

Thanks!

Chemical reactions within organic life give rise to sophisticated exchange of information. This alters the base organics material process and make up, so that a change can occur.

This change is derived from one or more chemicals acting upon another, each organic system is essentially having a relationship with other organic systems.

More than this, other systems can effect us chemically and cause change to organics, such as sun light, the cold, darkness, electronic waves.

 

[Halbhh]

That may be what YOU want to happen and I really do not blame you. I wish that is was the case as well but alas, it is not.

The Bible is very clear in Luke 16:23..........
"In Hell , being in torments, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

Revelation 20:10........
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Hades is not the lake of fire. Rather, after the Judgement, then Hades and death, both, will be "thrown into the lake of fire." (Rev ch like 21 or 22 i think).

But yes, as above, we have reason to think the devil and his angels are immortal.

 

[Major1]

Hades is not the lake of fire. Rather, after the Judgement, then Hades and death, both, will be "thrown into the lake of fire." (Rev ch like 21 or 22 i think).

But yes, as above, we have reason to think the devil and his angels are immortal.

"Hades" is the Greek name and is the non-permanent place or temporary address of the disembodied souls of dead

"Sheol" the Hebrew name and is the non-permanent place or temporary address of the disembodied souls of dead.

Revelation 20:14-15 makes it clear that Hades/Sheol and the Lake of Fire are not the same place.
At the great white throne judgement at the end of the 1000 year kingdom, those in Hades will be removed from Hades, as Revelation 20:13 says.........
"... hell (Hades) delivered up the dead which were in them ...." And those which were in Hades will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14-15).

Note that the timing of this relocation of the lost occurs just before where Revelation 21:1 says,......
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

Hades/Sheol , which will be emptied in Revelation 20:13, apparently will them be destroyed.

 

[Halbhh]

"Hades" is the Greek name and is the non-permanent place or temporary address of the disembodied souls of dead

"Sheol" the Hebrew name and is the non-permanent place or temporary address of the disembodied souls of dead.

Revelation 20:14-15 makes it clear that Hades/Sheol and the Lake of Fire are not the same place.
At the great white throne judgement at the end of the 1000 year kingdom, those in Hades will be removed from Hades, as Revelation 20:13 says.........
"... hell (Hades) delivered up the dead which were in them ...." And those which were in Hades will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14-15).

Note that the timing of this relocation of the lost occurs just before where Revelation 21:1 says,......
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

Hades/Sheol , which will be emptied in Revelation 20:13, apparently will them be destroyed.

Very good, I see we are on the same page there. Now I think we can see the story of Lazarus and the Rich man as not showing us a picture of the lake of fire. That Hades cannot be used to make conclusions about how it will be inside the lake of fire.

But let me say this is not important for believers to fully understand except only in an unusual situation where someone we are talking with really is stuck (even to the level of losing faith or being blocked from gaining faith) on whether God makes infinite punishment for finite amounts of sins, and then we can correctly say the text does not say that happens, and Christians have several viewpoints, but that a large portion of Christians think the answer is no, there is not infinite punishment for finite sins in the text, and that idea is only a doctrine that only some have, and that others read those same verses and additional ones and see the "second death" as being just what it sounds like it is saying, death. That the word "destory" that Christ used is just what it sounds like. That the word "perish" in John 3:16 means just what it sounds like it means. Actually, the most literal interpretation is that the "second death" is plainly death, and not eternal life.

 

[Major1]

Very good, I see we are on the same page there. Now I think we can see the story of Lazarus and the Rich man as not showing us a picture of the lake of fire. That Hades cannot be used to make conclusions about how it will be inside the lake of fire.

But let me say this is not important for believers to fully understand except only in an unusual situation where someone we are talking with really is stuck (even to the level of losing faith or being blocked from gaining faith) on whether God makes infinite punishment for finite amounts of sins, and then we can correctly say the text does not say that happens, and Christians have several viewpoints, but that a large portion of Christians think the answer is no, there is not infinite punishment for finite sins in the text, and that idea is only a doctrine that only some have, and that others read those same verses and additional ones and see the "second death" as being just what it sounds like it is saying, death. That the word "destory" that Christ used is just what it sounds like. That the word "perish" in John 3:16 means just what it sounds like it means. Actually, the most literal interpretation is that the "second death" is plainly death, and not eternal life.

We may be on the same page in determining "What" Hades/Sheol/Lake of fire is, BUT we are not on the same page when it comes to what the Bible says takes place there or how long the torment will last.

I believe what the Bible says and YOU apparently are making up what you want to believe as you go along.

You are promoting "Annialationism" which is taught by the Watchtower Society, (JW'S) and Seventh-Day Adventism, among others and that my friend IS NOT Biblical.

Rev. 20:10..........
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Luke 16:23-24...........
"In Hades, where he was in torments, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

The real issue and the reason why you are confused is the problem between Dualists and Annihilationists is nothing other than this.........
"Does Scripture teach that the wicked will be made immortal for the purpose of suffering endless pain; or does it teach that the wicked following whatever degree and duration of pain God may justly inflict, will finally and truly die, perish and become extinct forever and ever?"
(The Fire That Consumes, Edward W. Fudge, Annihilationist, p. 425)

First we notice that we as Christians are to seek immortality. Obviously we do not possess it yet if we seek it

Rom 2:7.......
"to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life"

The Bible then says that at resurrection, the mortal (us now with a physical mortal body) will put on the immortal (all men will have an immortal body).

1 Cor 15:53 .....
"For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"

Now THINK my dear friend.......
If ALL MEN both good and WICKED put on immortality at the resurrection, then how do they then cease to exist? What kind of immortality is that? Hence eternal torment! Never to die again! Man's body is not immortal now, but will be made so. All men, whether good or wicked! Man survives death consciously, then at resurrection is made immortal!

 

[Major1]

By inspiration of the holy spirit, besides that Jesus didn't actually put anything in writing himself.

That is incorrect my friend.

Allow me to help you.

Colossians 2:9…
“For in him (Christ) dwelleth all the fulness of the GODHEAD bodily".

1 John 5:7........
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and THESE THREE ARE ONE".

So as you can see, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit re ONE.

Now then, having established that lets consider 2 Timothy 3:16..........
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness".

God is the Trinity......Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

All of this means that the Author of ALL Scripture is the Lord Jesus Christ as He is the agent of the Trinity.

Lets prove that by the Scriptures themselves in Luke 24:27............
"And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself."

 

[Halbhh]

....

I had to stop reading when you made a personal accusation. Without making accusations, could you instead be only specific. To me 'eternal' means forever and irreversible. Unlike fallen angels though, we don't already have eternal life, and perish without it. Keep in mind why Christ gave us the instruction of Matthew 7:1-5 -- we always have logs in our own eyes when we are so sure there is a log in our brother's eye. As soon as you are sure your brother is in the wrong and get angry or accusatory, apply Matthew 7:1-5 that very moment.

 

[Major1]

The word "perish" is from Christ. Not me. And the other quoted words in that post above also are all His or from the gospels or Revelation. But, how you interpret it precisely isn't a salvation question, only that we truly believe in Him, and then our faith continues, which happens if we do as He said in Matthew 7:24-27.

My dear friend, The Bible does not define the word “perish.”

YOU are assuming that “perish” means that consciousness will cease. YOU are doing that because that is what someone has instilled in you to believe.

The Bible speaks of unbelievers as being dead in Ephesians 2:1 and John 5:24, yet they are certainly conscious! Since the Bible uses the word “dead” in such a metaphorical way, it may also use the word “perish” in a metaphorical way, especially when it is talking about the age to come, an afterlife, of which we have no experience.

In the Bible, life and death may have greater meanings than the physical meanings we commonly associate with those terms. When a person dies, the body stops working and begins to decompose, but what happens spiritually? Can consciousness continue, and if so, in what way? We cannot make assumptions about the afterlife based on physical meanings of “death” or “perish.”

 

[Major1]

To learn about relationships, for that is what the universe is designed for.

May I say to you that there may be another answer here.

IMO......life is preparation to meet God!

First, human lack of holiness is a profoundly pervasive problem. There is no moment of our existence that is prior to our defilement. And this lack of holiness is not confined to a small area, but it overspreads our entire existence.

Second, human lack of holiness is a genuine obstacle to meeting with God. The unholiness of mankind puts them in great danger from the holiness of God. Yahweh’s absolute purity of being and act sets him utterly apart from a corrupted humanity.

Third, only God’s grace opens up the way to a safe encounter of God with man. The very obstacles mentioned highlight how surprising this event was. God took the initiative to bring about this encounter and protect the people from the consuming fire of his holiness. The fact that this comes about in context of a covenant and using a mediator is significant, but somewhat in the background in this text.

By this point, the connection to Jesus Christ should be apparent. The only way for a defiled people to safely encounter their holy God, is through Jesus Christ. His incarnation, death, and resurrection are the ultimate theophany. In him, God has drawn near to defiled mankind, bringing pardon and purification for sin in his wake. The only true way to prepare to meet our God is to trust in Jesus Christ.

 

[Major1]

I had to stop reading when you made a personal accusation. Without making accusations, could you instead be only specific. To me 'eternal' means forever and irreversible. Unlike fallen angels though, we don't already have eternal life, and perish without it. Keep in mind why Christ gave us the instruction of Matthew 7:1-5 -- we always have logs in our own eyes when we are so sure there is a log in our brother's eye. As soon as you are sure your brother is in the wrong and get angry or accusatory, apply Matthew 7:1-5 that very moment.

A personal accusation???? What was that my friend?

 

[Halbhh]

YOU are assuming that “perish” means that consciousness will cease. YOU are doing that because that is what someone has instilled in you to believe.

Could I tell you what I believe, because it will be more accurate, right. I did not learn my view from someone, but by praying to understand more and reading with real listening. I take "perish" to mean simply perish -- it results in death. That this fits with every last verse on hell I know of is necessary though for me to take it that way. I never approach scirpture with the intent to support my view.

Did you hear that? I don't approach scirpture with the aim to support my viewpoint.

Instead I aim to listen and hear. It's humble. We have to be humble, and be the silent listener, and let the scripture be the one talking.

When we do, we continue to learn more, because the word really is living. This is far more valuable than our mere understanding of the moment before we listen.

 

[food4thought]

Is hell everlasting or does one perish in the flame's.

Which side do I choose?

Hi anticrash. As you can see from the responses here this doctrine is hotly debated within the church. I don't pretend to have the end all answer, but I suggest to you that when Jesus and the apostles spoke of hell/the lake of fire they were using figurative language. Think about it... Jesus quotes Isaiah in saying that "their worm does not die and their flame is not quenched". Does that mean that the lost are tormented by eternal fireproof grave worms? Might I suggest that Jesus and Isaiah were using metaphors to describe a spiritual reality to limited human minds? Just my two cents worth...

You can read my thoughts regarding hell here:
The doctrine of hell

 

[Halbhh]

A personal accusation???? What was that my friend?

Well to be accused of "making up what you want to believe ", that would be a very serious level of sin (deadly I think), as best I understand. I'm innocent of that one, at least to all my awareness. It's a mighty huge accusation. But, I don't have it against the person in my heart, but it's already forgiven from me (by His help, because of aid from praying the Lord's prayer).