Confession ...

[MoreCoffee]

If one takes the time to find out what a word means it shouldn't be a problem. But yeah, I suppose we would have less confusion if the creeds used the word 'universal'. But then again, Roman Catholics don't own the rights to 'catholic' so maybe we should just continue using the word.

I think we do have the exclusive copyright to it, so neyah

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Yes, that's right. So why do people want to borrow Catholic for their self description when they really mean universal? Catholic is, after all, a Greek word that underwent transition into a Latin word and so came into western languages. My Orthodox siblings in Christ can use katholikos and we Latins can use Catholic.

Hold the phone there buddy. Did you not just say it came from a Greek word and you romish types translated it into Latin? We (the Greek Orthodox) should be charging you royalties.

Or to put it in sweeter terms let's just leave it at

Isn't that Special - YouTube

 

[MoreCoffee]

Hold the phone there buddy. Did you not just say it came from a Greek word and you romish types translated it into Latin? We (the Greek Orthodox) should be charging you royalties.

Or to put it in sweeter terms let's just leave it at

Isn't that Special - YouTube

Naughty Greek speakers ought to stick with καθολικός !!!

We own the Latin letters

 

[stan1953]

Oi!

Wait a minute. Mama Kidogo uses

which is the icon for Eastern Orthodox Christians

Which is why I said what I said. In another post she said she was of the American Orthodox which is not of the Eastern Orthodox so I am a bit confused as to WHAT she actually is part of.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Which is why I said what I said. In another post she said she was of the American Orthodox which is not of the Eastern Orthodox so I am a bit confused as to WHAT she actually is part of.

Okay I see what's up.

Mama Kidogo is an Orthodox Christian; her particular jurisdiction (or whatever is the appropriate term) is American Orthodox Church. I am a Catholic Christian and my particular church is of the Roman rite in the Australian Catholic Church.

My icon is for Catholic

Hers is for Orthodox.

 

[stan1953]

Okay I see what's up.
Mama Kidogo is an Orthodox Christian; her particular jurisdiction (or whatever is the appropriate term) is American Orthodox Church. I am a Catholic Christian and my particular church is of the Roman rite in the Australian Catholic Church.
My icon is for Catholic
Hers is for Orthodox.

Well hers is for EASTERN Orthodox and yours just says CATHOLIC. I would prefer if this site showed it as Roman Catholic. There ARE other Catholic denoms just as there are other Orthodox denoms.
Is the ACC not RCC?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well hers is for EASTERN Orthodox and yours just says CATHOLIC. I would prefer if this site showed it as Roman Catholic. There ARE other Catholic denoms just as there are other Orthodox denoms.
Is the ACC not RCC?

No. The Australian Catholic Church is Catholic, it has eastern Catholics and Latin Catholics and Roman rite Catholics in it.

 

[~Anastasia~]

one holy catholic church = one holy universal church

That's what I told him. I think he is suspicious of believing me, LOL.

Yes, that's right. So why do people want to borrow Catholic for their self description when they really mean universal? Catholic is, after all, a Greek word that underwent transition into a Latin word and so came into western languages. My Orthodox siblings in Christ can use katholikos and we Latins can use Catholic.

My dear brother MC ... It would make life a lot easier for me at least if that were so! No offense intended, my husband has been strongly taught against anything Catholic to the point that it is difficult for me to get him to consider things.

Don't feel picked on though - that same pastor/teacher ran down the entire Pentecostal branch making quite unfair and untrue generalizations as well.

It makes it hard for me to get him into any church except that one.

Fortunately God is gracious though, and he has found many truths in reading the Bible on his own. It's just a process getting him not to have an automatic reaction.

 

[stan1953]

No. The Australian Catholic Church is Catholic, it has eastern Catholics and Latin Catholics and Roman rite Catholics in it.

Well that's kinda cool. Hope you all get along?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well that's kinda cool. Hope you all get along?

We do.

 

[stan1953]

my husband has been strongly taught against anything Catholic to the point that it is difficult for me to get him to consider things.
that same pastor/teacher ran down the entire Pentecostal branch making quite unfair and untrue generalizations as well.

Hmmm... sounds Baptist.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hmmm... sounds Baptist.

Not even quite baptist, but that would be the closest description, yes.

I suppose technically he probably taught against something even the baptists believe, since he wasn't baptist either. If only he wasn't so quick to call heresy, I wouldn't have so much of a problem now.

 

[~Anastasia~]

No. The Australian Catholic Church is Catholic, it has eastern Catholics and Latin Catholics and Roman rite Catholics in it.

OK, now I'm going to ask an extremely ignorant question, I suppose ...

That means that not all who call themselves "Catholic" (with the big "C") and use the faith icon that you use are the same either?

Are there doctrinal differences? I thought all Catholics were Roman Catholics.

That might explain some of the things I've been told that don't mesh perfectly.

 

[Willie T]

OK, now I'm going to ask an extremely ignorant question, I suppose ...

That means that not all who call themselves "Catholic" (with the big "C") and use the faith icon that you use are the same either?

Are there doctrinal differences? I thought all Catholics were Roman Catholics.

That might explain some of the things I've been told that don't mesh perfectly.

Is this kind of like the same thing as there being different denominations within the Protestant church?

 

[~Anastasia~]

St. Paul called it a race with a beginning and an end.
I am unaware of anyone teaching works for salvation. But I know it's easy to misinterpret works due to entering into salvation with works for salvation. Works keep faith alive and are a product of being born again through water and Spirit.

Thank you.

I have been reflecting a lot lately on the words of Paul about that. Then the sermon at one of the churches I went to last Sunday was on that verse, but had a different point. But I've been thinking a lot about it. Especially how Paul seemed to express the concern that he himself could be disqualified.

As far as someone teaching works FOR salvation (not initial justification), I did have a conversation with someone who explained their faith that way. Initially justified by grace, and sanctified through works and grace, to reach (hopefully) salvation at the end of life. Whether it was a true representation of their church or not I cannot be the one to judge. Maybe they just understood it that way.

I would say it along the same lines as the way you do. If one has true faith, then works will result. Personally I think the two are pretty much inseparable, according to James. That doesn't mean the works are what justifies us, but if we are truly justified, we should have works.

I like the way you say works keep faith alive. I have not thought of that, but it makes sense. I know that in doing things that probably qualify as "works" my faith is often benefited.

 

[Willie T]

I have found that you do have to carefully read Paul. I think he fancied himself a theatrical drama writer.

Much like one of us expressing things in a first-person narrative when discussing the thoughts of a desperate man seeing robbing a bank as his only resort to a financial dilemma. "There I was, backed into a corner... broke, with no friends."

 

[~Anastasia~]

The strait gate and narrow road story is far from the only passage in the Lord's teaching that points to salvation being a journey it was just the most obviously journey-related because it speaks of a road that leads to eternal life. The other passages are the ones where he speaks of the arduous work and faithful obedience that yield the fruit of salvation.

Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
John 6:26-27

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
John 15:1-10
​

There are other passages too, you can probably think of some yourself, and there are the comments of saint Paul about running the race so as to receive the prize and not be disqualified.

PS: none of what I've said and none of what I believe means that one is not saved solely because of the grace of God and the saving work of Jesus Christ. I am inclined to say this:

• a person cannot know with absolute certainty that they are 'saved' but they can be confident in God's promises and that counts for a lot.
• only God knows absolutely who is saved and who will be saved and who was saved. It's one of the attributes of deity to know everything that can be known.
• human beings who want to claim absolute knowledge of their own salvation ought to take the warnings from the new testament seriously including the one from Hebrews that I quoted in an earlier post.

Well, MC, I have to say ... the post you are replying to was not one of my finest. I should have not given such a quick and poorly thought out reply. I had something else in mind, but that is no excuse.

Thanks for giving a thoughtful reply back in spite of that.

To be honest, I will say first that I have had a lot of these kinds of things on my mind lately. The only things I know for sure are that I do NOT believe in what a few teach that one says a prayer, then can go on and life whatever kind of life they like, committing grievous sins all day, and the words of the prayer mean you go to heaven no matter what.

I am also confident that God loves me and is working in me. (As you said, His promises from there count for a lot.)

Whatever other cherished beliefs I may have had, I am forced to be honest enough with my self to want to prove them over again, or else discard them. So I am holding pretty much everything else in reserve at the moment.

The real reason people who don't agree with your interpretation of those verses is probably that they read the Bible through whatever lenses they've been given. I've been as guilty of that as anyone (maybe more). What amazes me is that I can read a chapter I know I've read many times, and see something that totally surprises me that I never thought was there. It confuses what I was taught, so I guess I just glazed over it.

But yes, I've been thinking a lot about things like what you've posted about lately. No, not lately. For years. That's why I know for sure I don't believe what I mentioned above. I just canNOT ignore so many passages that warn us. Why warn us of something that isn't possible?

For your list, yes, I believe we can count on God's promises - and as you say, that counts for a lot. There are times I am perfectly reassured by Him that I know I'm on the right path, at the very least. I don't like to proclaim certain things, like when they sing "Forever I'll Stand" in some of the praise songs, I will add "by Your grace" or something similar, because I believe I have to credit Him for keeping me. If it were up to me, I might very well fall away. So I know I depend on Him for that as well, and I hope never to reach a point in myself that I end up "making a shipwreck" of my own faith - I've seen a couple of people that seem to have done that.

 

[stan1953]

Not even quite baptist, but that would be the closest description, yes.
I suppose technically he probably taught against something even the baptists believe, since he wasn't baptist either. If only he wasn't so quick to call heresy, I wouldn't have so much of a problem now.

OK well I won't press.

Do you mean your husband or the pastor?
Sadly many Christians fall into a Pharisaical religiosity when they think they have the ONLY true denomination. I'll pray for your relationship.
It may be helpful to remind him that in Jesus, there is neither male or female, and that you are IN a partnership.

 

[stan1953]

Is this kind of like the same thing as there being different denominations within the Protestant church?

The Roman Catholic Church is composed of 23 Churches: the Western or Latin Church and the 22 Eastern Catholic Churches.
There are also a number of denominations which refer to themselves as Catholic but do NOT adhere to all of the RCC doctrine. The following URL may be of interest to some: The Facts and Stats on 33000 Denominations: World Christian Encyclopedia (2001, 2nd edition)

 

[~Anastasia~]

OK well I won't press.

Do you mean your husband or the pastor?
Sadly many Christians fall into a Pharisaical religiosity when they think they have the ONLY true denomination. I'll pray for your relationship.
It may be helpful to remind him that in Jesus, there is neither male or female, and that you are IN a partnership.

Oh, no, no I meant the pastor.

No, his pastor he was under for a long time, basically pointed out "error" all over the church body. Which now that we are looking for a church, and especially since I'm interested in going to different kinds of churches, is a real problem.

We went to a good Foursquare as our last home church, but there are none here. Though honestly, his former pastor would denounce them too. I started out checking out the non-denoms around here, but they are most of them not suited to us at all.

It's just making it hard, because anything that remotely reminds him of an RC church makes him suspicious. I asked him to try to separate things and look at them individually. Like the sign of the cross - that bothered him, but really, what is it that seems unbiblical or wrong about it? That kind of thing, if that makes sense.

He's just been heavily prejudiced against everyone. I don't fault him. He's trying to adhere to sound doctrine and truth. It's just hard to un-hear some of the prejudices of his former pastor.